17" A1052 PowerBook G4

[Michael Maddan]

Hello!
My ( new to me ) PowerBook G4 is running what I'll call very warm. I installed a 64GB mSATA SSD, and just started using Aquafox. There are 2, 1GB RAM cards, and the fan turns on & off as I'm thinking it should.
So: is it a good idea to replace the heat paste / pad?
I am able to go Online / use Gmail / look at some music videos / so the functionality seems OK...time for some maintenance, though?
Michael.

 

[eyoungren]

Is it getting warm enough when just idling to cause the fans to come on? If so, you might check to see what apps/processes might be running in the background. Typically, fans coming on when idle means some background process is using up a lot of CPU.

If it's idling and CPU usage is consistently low and the fans still come on, then yeah - probably time to repaste.

 

[Michael Maddan]

Is it getting warm enough when just idling to cause the fans to come on? If so, you might check to see what apps/processes might be running in the background. Typically, fans coming on when idle means some background process is using up a lot of CPU.

If it's idling and CPU usage is consistently low and the fans still come on, then yeah - probably time to repaste.

Thanks for the info...I appreciate it.

So: after 20 or so years, my initial thought was that a re-paste would almost be a necessity, whether the fan was running every now & then, or even if the machine never got 'really hot'...the paste would seem to be all dried out, and ready for some work...am I close here?

Michael.

 

[willowthewisp]

Thanks for the info...I appreciate it.

So: after 20 or so years, my initial thought was that a re-paste would almost be a necessity, whether the fan was running every now & then, or even if the machine never got 'really hot'...the paste would seem to be all dried out, and ready for some work...am I close here?

Michael.

If you are using a fresh OS install mds reporter might be busy in the background for several hours - check the cpu utilization! Let the system do its work, put the PowerBook on a even surface and let the lid / display open !

 

[shadowboi]

So: is it a good idea to replace the heat paste / pad?

Only if you have good experience doing that. With old Apple Macs it takes eternity to unscrew everthing and get to the heatsink, I once broke fan in old Macbook White 2007 because plastic got very brittle over the years.

It can heat significantly just after the OS install because of Spotlight indexing, give it a time to "get stuff together". Also heating issues can be because of older batteries or due to using macbooks from power source, you can try playing with power settings or download some utilities to control such parameters as CPU and FAN speed, older laptops were pretty bad in this sense

 

[eyoungren]

Thanks for the info...I appreciate it.

So: after 20 or so years, my initial thought was that a re-paste would almost be a necessity, whether the fan was running every now & then, or even if the machine never got 'really hot'...the paste would seem to be all dried out, and ready for some work...am I close here?

Michael.

If you want to repaste, go ahead. That isn't going to hurt the machine. It's just a drastic option where these laptops are concerned and I always favor checking the easy, simple things before such an action.

I mean, if the problem is some errant process, wouldn't it be easier to just fix that before going through the hassle of repasting. Of course, you can argue preventative maintenance and as I said, this won't hurt. But for myself, if it was my Mac, I'd just hate to have gone through all that only to find out it wasn't necessary.

I have a 2003 17" PowerBook that I got as a replacement sometime in 2012-2013 or so. It's never needed a repaste and the only time it's had heat issues has been when a process has run amok. Otherwise, it sits right in the normal temperature range for this model laptop.

 

[Michael Maddan]

Okay...sounds as if the General Consensus is to let the Old Apple alone...which I will do!

I cleaned the fan and made sure there was good air flow, and that everything looked good, debris-wise. The entire machine is really nice, and everything seems to be working as designed. Aquafox was just installed a week or so ago, and the Apple has only run an hour or so since.

For those who may be wondering if I'm a bit too fussy about getting into things that seem OK, there's a reason: many years ago I bought a high-mileage car in very nice shape at a good price. Looked & ran OK. HOWEVER: the Manufacturer had specifically stated that the automatic transmission was 'Sealed for life', and that fluid & filter changes were not necessary. Indeed, the dip stick was there, but secured with a plastic collar that needed to be broken if the fluid was to be replaced...

OUCH. Turned out that the fluid & filter very-much needed to be changed, as had been the case on automatic transmissions for decades before. Routine maintenance.

I heard that many folks ended-up spending several thousand USD to replace their ( ruined ) transmissions, and this experience left a lasting impression with me...put another way, 'If in doubt as to Best Practice, just ask...!'

Thanks again, everyone.

Michael.

 

[eyoungren]

Okay...sounds as if the General Consensus is to let the Old Apple alone...which I will do!

I cleaned the fan and made sure there was good air flow, and that everything looked good, debris-wise. The entire machine is really nice, and everything seems to be working as designed. Aquafox was just installed a week or so ago, and the Apple has only run an hour or so since.

For those who may be wondering if I'm a bit too fussy about getting into things that seem OK, there's a reason: many years ago I bought a high-mileage car in very nice shape at a good price. Looked & ran OK. HOWEVER: the Manufacturer had specifically stated that the automatic transmission was 'Sealed for life', and that fluid & filter changes were not necessary. Indeed, the dip stick was there, but secured with a plastic collar that needed to be broken if the fluid was to be replaced...

OUCH. Turned out that the fluid & filter very-much needed to be changed, as had been the case on automatic transmissions for decades before. Routine maintenance.

I heard that many folks ended-up spending several thousand USD to replace their ( ruined ) transmissions, and this experience left a lasting impression with me...put another way, 'If in doubt as to Best Practice, just ask...!'

Thanks again, everyone.

Michael.

For the record, idle temps (at least with the 17" Macs I have owned) sit around 115º to 118º. Fans don't come on until about 120º-125º. Heavy load (100% CPU) is around 135º to 145º.

You can safely hit around 158º to 175º but above that the Mac is going to start shutting down to protect itself. To get temps that high though, the Mac has to be doing some serious hammering to the CPU/GPU.

Drive temps should average anywhere from high 90ºs to 130º or so. Higher temps, meaning the drive is busy.

If those are the temps you're seeing and the Mac is functioning just fine then just know that you're right in the operating range.

PS. Every Mac is programmed to shut down when temps get too high. This is called 'thermal shutdown' and it's automatic. The Mac will simply switch off, like a light switch. Apple has this programmed into Macs in order to protect internal components. So, outside of some abnormal situation your Mac isn't going to cook itself to death unless you just allow it to sit at extreme temps for long periods of time. Most people don't do that though.

 

[Michael Maddan]

For the record, idle temps (at least with the 17" Macs I have owned) sit around 115º to 118º. Fans don't come on until about 120º-125º. Heavy load (100% CPU) is around 135º to 145º.

You can safely hit around 158º to 175º but above that the Mac is going to start shutting down to protect itself. To get temps that high though, the Mac has to be doing some serious hammering to the CPU/GPU.

Drive temps should average anywhere from high 90ºs to 130º or so. Higher temps, meaning the drive is busy.

If those are the temps you're seeing and the Mac is functioning just fine then just know that you're right in the operating range.

PS. Every Mac is programmed to shut down when temps get too high. This is called 'thermal shutdown' and it's automatic. The Mac will simply switch off, like a light switch. Apple has this programmed into Macs in order to protect internal components. So, outside of some abnormal situation your Mac isn't going to cook itself to death unless you just allow it to sit at extreme temps for long periods of time. Most people don't do that though.

More Good Info...thanks!
Oh: what's a good add-on to watch the temp...or, is one already there, built-in?

 

[eyoungren]

More Good Info...thanks!
Oh: what's a good add-on to watch the temp...or, is one already there, built-in?

A lot of us here swear by iStat Menus. The rest swear by MenuMeters.

iStat 1.0

istatmenus.zip

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

iStat 2.0

istatmenus2.0.zip

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Both versions above are free. Bjango started charging at version 3.0.

Sorry, I don't have a link to MenuMeters. Someone else might have it.

 

[Michael Maddan]

A lot of us here swear by iStat Menus. The rest swear by MenuMeters.

iStat 1.0

istatmenus.zip

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

iStat 2.0

istatmenus2.0.zip

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Both versions above are free. Bjango started charging at version 3.0.

Sorry, I don't have a link to MenuMeters. Someone else might have it.

Homework for me tonight...thanks again.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

My preference is menu meters but I use both across various Macs PowerPC and Early Intel.
Menu Meters for PowerPC Macs.

I am the odd man out here . If you feel you have the wheelhouse to safely disassemble your powerbook to repaste and replace the thermal pads, my opinion is to absolutely do that. Just take your time and you'll be fine. 20 years is so outside the life span of both thermal paste and pads, not replacing these heat dissipation elements creates risk with such an elderly machine. That is to say that with such an elderly machine, components do in their own way become brittle, so taking the time you need to safely disassemble is key. Do not rush. Take your time, be methodical and you and your Mac most likely will be fine. One caveat is that after 20 years the logic board will have glued itself to the heatsink/frame with the thermal compound Apple used - to get it off, hit the back side of the case where the heatsink is or the logic board behind those ICs with your blow dryer on high for a few minutes. This will soften the now glued on thermal compound that was used. Both my 17s were this way and needed to be heated up in order for the logic board to be separated from the heatsink/frame. What I have done on the last couple machines is used thermal pads in place of paste as the life span of a thermal pad is typically better and in my mind, easier to get off/apart. Happy to report that thermals have been great post-switch to pads.

I forget the pad thickness I used but will repot back (have to go check what I have) Another step I recommend is that you use an ice cube tray to keep track of all your screw/disassembly steps, review disassembly steps via fixit.com or some of the videos on YT and take plenty of pictures. Best of luck to you either way you go.

 

[Michael Maddan]

My preference is menu meters but I use both across various Macs PowerPC and Early Intel.
Menu Meters for PowerPC Macs.

I am the odd man out here . If you feel you have the wheelhouse to safely disassemble your powerbook to repaste and replace the thermal pads, my opinion is to absolutely do that. Just take your time and you'll be fine. 20 years is so outside the life span of both thermal paste and pads, not replacing these heat dissipation elements creates risk with such an elderly machine. That is to say that with such an elderly machine, components do in their own way become brittle, so taking the time you need to safely disassemble is key. Do not rush. Take your time, be methodical and you and your Mac most likely will be fine. One caveat is that after 20 years the logic board will have glued itself to the heatsink/frame with the thermal compound Apple used - to get it off, hit the back side of the case where the heatsink is or the logic board behind those ICs with your blow dryer on high for a few minutes. This will soften the now glued on thermal compound that was used. Both my 17s were this way and needed to be heated up in order for the logic board to be separated from the heatsink/frame. What I have done on the last couple machines is used thermal pads in place of paste as the life span of a thermal pad is typically better and in my mind, easier to get off/apart. Happy to report that thermals have been great post-switch to pads.
View attachment 2452616

I forget the pad thickness I used but will repot back (have to go check what I have) Another step I recommend is that you use an ice cube tray to keep track of all your screw/disassembly steps, review disassembly steps via fixit.com or some of the videos on YT and take plenty of pictures. Best of luck to you either way you go.

Decisions / decisions...

The notion that prompted this Post was one that thought it a good idea to renew 20-year-old thermal paste, if possible without running a risk of doing more harm, than good, and that idea remains...although, one not yet strong enough to get me to strip the Apple down and actually do it.

I have quite a lot of experience working on 100+ year old watches, so I'm used to going gently around things that can break and be really tough to fix. I've swapped-out several iBook G4's HDD for mSATA SSD's, and discovered that taking apart one of these Apples is actually very easy and straightforward, as long as the 'little white connectors' on the motherboard are treated with respect ( I leave them untouched, and just snip-away a bit at the aluminum shield, and lift it off ) and all the screws are kept in order.

So: a few more days @ thinking about what to do with my A1052.

I did install "G4 Fan Control 0.6.1" last night( I looked for the control mentioned here, but could not find it...) , and confirmed that the fan is just fine, and can be set to turn on when I want it to, although I'll stay with the pre-set values. A few minutes later, I tried ( ! ) to create a system image using a USB stick, but gave up after the poor machine had been running for an hour or so, and had barely got to 5GB out of a 28GB total...that's too much work for my tastes, and decided to give up.

Thanks again!

Michael.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

The notion that prompted this Post was one that thought it a good idea to renew 20-year-old thermal paste,

I agree with this assessment.

if possible without running a risk of doing more harm, than good, and that idea remains...although, one not yet strong enough to get me to strip the Apple down and actually do it.

This certainly can happen. These machines are old, components get brittle & PowerPC runs hot. A PowerBook 12” I owned died on the table about 7 years ago. Granted these machines are a PITA outright compared to a spacious 17” I think it honest to be transparent - regardless of your skill, comfort level and care taken, 20+ year old components can break and this 12” did just that. It happens.

I have quite a lot of experience working on 100+ year old watches, so I'm used to going gently around things that can break and be really tough to fix.

I think many of us come from other hobbies that required similar skill sets. Prior to collecting and working on old macs I could never afford when new, I had a solid soldering and trouble shooting wheelhouse working on my electric instruments, pedals and amps/cabs.

I've swapped-out several iBook G4's HDD for mSATA SSD's, and discovered that taking apart one of these Apples

It makes great sense to me that if you take the time to repaste, use the opportunity to drop in an SSD solution.

is actually very easy and straightforward, as long as the 'little white connectors' on the motherboard are treated with respect ( I leave them untouched, and just snip-away a bit at the aluminum shield, and lift it off ) and all the screws are kept in order.

So: a few more days @ thinking about what to do with my A1052.

I did install "G4 Fan Control 0.6.1" last night( I looked for the control mentioned here, but could not find it...) , and confirmed that the fan is just fine, and can be set to turn on when I want it to, although I'll stay with the pre-set values.

0.6.1 works well for me and is what the dev has released as a precompiled app on his GitHub.

A few minutes later, I tried ( ! ) to create a system image using a USB stick, but gave up after the poor machine had been running for an hour or so, and had barely got to 5GB out of a 28GB total...that's too much work for my tastes,

What app did you use? For creating bootable images/clones, I like to use Carbon Copy Cloner.

Good luck! 🙂

 

[Michael Maddan]

I agree with this assessment.


This certainly can happen. These machines are old, components get brittle & PowerPC runs hot. A PowerBook 12” I owned died on the table about 7 years ago. Granted these machines are a PITA outright compared to a spacious 17” I think it honest to be transparent - regardless of your skill, comfort level and care taken, 20+ year old components can break and this 12” did just that. It happens.


I think many of us come from other hobbies that required similar skill sets. Prior to collecting and working on old macs I could never afford when new, I had a solid soldering and trouble shooting wheelhouse working on my electric instruments, pedals and amps/cabs.


It makes great sense to me that if you take the time to repaste, use the opportunity to drop in an SSD solution.


0.6.1 works well for me and is what the dev has released as a precompiled app on his GitHub.

What app did you use? For creating bootable images/clones, I like to use Carbon Copy Cloner.

Good luck! 🙂

Thanks again...a good conversation.

I'm in Maine, USA, and the Woods are just a few minutes walk away. A small Town of about 10,000--and, has been for a Century or so. November is finally settling in, and there'll be snow before too long. It's a nice Place & Time to enjoy an Old Apple Computer, and I'm looking forward to long nights and a warm desk top.

Michael.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

Thanks again...a good conversation.

I'm in Maine, USA, and the Woods are just a few minutes walk away. A small Town of about 10,000--and, has been for a Century or so. November is finally settling in, and there'll be snow before too long. It's a nice Place & Time to enjoy an Old Apple Computer, and I'm looking forward to long nights and a warm desk top.

Michael.

Very cool. My Dad and his people are from Eastport and the surrounding area. I have many fond memories of summer spent at my Grandma and Grandpa's place off Main street in Eastport when I was a young kiddo in the early 80s.