2011 iMac - Not seeing Boot Image on Thunderbolt NVMe

[TrumanLA]

I used a SATA drive with 10.13.4 and upgraded to 10.13.6 ... but I know that's for MacPro 4,1, etc ...

However, I'm not exactly sure which EFI or Boot ROM update gives the iMac the ability to boot from ext. NVMe.

Can anyone remind me..?
(also, are the criteria for a 2011 to boot from NVMe the same as a 2012 or Early 2013 iMac which still used the SATA SSD blades)..?

Thanks!

 

[Juicy Box]

Let us know the equipment involved, and how your set up is.

For example, what NVMe are you using, and how is it connected into your iMac?

I'm not exactly sure which EFI or Boot ROM update gives the iMac the ability to boot

Check the firmware by - Apple symbol > About this Mac > System Report > Hardware Overview > Boot Rom Version. It should say "87.0.0.0.0" for the Mid 2011 iMacs.

I used a SATA drive with 10.13.4 and upgraded to 10.13.6

Was this the OEM HDD? If not, this could be your issue.

 

[TrumanLA]

Let us know the equipment involved, and how your set up is.

Working Mid-2011 21in iMac
• Customers 1TB piece of ___ (would've been under the QC program until 2014 I think) died.
• Attached SATA SSD via TB-to-SATA (Seagate FreeAgent)
• SATA SSD (Bootable: 10.13.4).
• Ran updates to upgrade the OS (hoping it upgraded the ROM).
• SSD / OS found 'updates' and upgraded to 10.13.6 (but didn't do an EFI upgrade)
• The NVMe drive can boot any of the 10+ machines I'm working on or own.

For example, what NVMe are you using, and how is it connected into your iMac?




Check the firmware by - Apple symbol > About this Mac > System Report > Hardware Overview > Boot Rom Version. It should say "87.0.0.0.0" for the Mid 2011 iMacs.


Was this the OEM HDD? If not, this could be your issue.

Ext. NVMe SSD:
- Enclosure: Thunderbolt - to - M.2 (NVMe)
- NVMe SSD: HP EX950 (M.2) ... (new & tested to boot other systems)
- OS Installed: High Sierra (10.13.6) as any earlier OS would require adding NVMe kexts.



I answered your questions out of an abundance of open-mindedness, so I'm hoping you'll now elaborate on the basis of those questions -- as some are more than a little confusing:

Isn't all that matters ... whether 2011 iMacs ever get a Boot ROM that supports NVMe boot up..?

"Was this the OEM HDD? If not, this could be your issue."​

Is there such a thing as an OEM NVMe SSD for the 2011 iMac..?
You're suggesting that, if it's not an OEM SSD ... it can't externally boot..?

I cannot even begin to explain how confusing this remark is:
...if not, this could be your problem.

...but I'll leave it at that and will optimistically look forward to your reply.

Thanks!

 

[Juicy Box]

"Was this the OEM HDD? If not, this could be your issue."​

Is there such a thing as an OEM NVMe SSD for the 2011 iMac..?
You're suggesting that, if it's not an OEM SSD ... it can't externally boot..?

I cannot even begin to explain how confusing this remark is:
...if not, this could be your problem.

In your first post some things were not very clear to me, I thought you were referring to the internal SATA drive, not something external:

I used a SATA drive with 10.13.4 and upgraded to 10.13.6

That is why I asked if it was the OEM drive, meaning an internal HDD.

I have had issues in the past installing latest firmware on non-OEM drives on the Mid 2011 iMacs.

If you were updating to 10.13.6 to get the latest firmware, it may not be installed if you are not using a OEM HDD.

You can update the OS to 10.13.6, but the firmware will remain the same.

My thoughts are that if the iMac's firmware was not updated, maybe this is preventing the use of the NVMe.

 

[TrumanLA]

I know the Mac Pro 4,1 doesn't update the EFI until you pretend you're going to install Mojave...

(not that the iMac should have the same 'reservations' ... but I guess I can pretend to do that and see if that involves a Firmware / Boot ROM update, also -- though, I get that it'd be blind luck if it worked).

 

[chrfr]

I know the Mac Pro 4,1 doesn't update the EFI until you pretend you're going to install Mojave...

(not that the iMac should have the same 'reservations' ... but I guess I can pretend to do that and see if that involves a Firmware / Boot ROM update, also -- though, I get that it'd be blind luck if it worked).

The firmware update process for the Mac Pro 4,1/5,1 is unique to those models. For other computers, the firmware updates happen silently with OS installations and updates. For a 2011 computer, you'd need to install 10.13.6 and all the available security updates to get the firmware fully updated. Because Mojave is not supported on a 2011 computer, it will not apply any firmware updates.

 

[Juicy Box]

Do you happen to have an Apple HDD sitting around?

If so, maybe try swapping it internally, then run the High Sierra installer and see if it will update the firmware.

There could be some other way to update the boot rom, but I just don't know how. Maybe someone else can chime in.

 

[TrumanLA]

Thanks for your help BTW -- I was worried for a second (1st response) but see how I was ambiguous.

Gotcha; maybe I've seen that before if I'm not mistaken with the MacPro 4,1 when trying to upgrade a HD's partition to Mojave (well, just the Boot ROM update that occurs before actually installing 10.14).

I think I had to give the entire HD to the OS to get it to update the ROM if I recall...

You think it needs to PHYSICALLY be on the SATA channel to be able to update the ROM ..? :'(
I just do NOT feel like taking it apart again right now. Here's the status:

 

[Juicy Box]

You think it needs to PHYSICALLY be on the SATA channel to be able to update the ROM ..? :'(

There might be another way, I just don't know how.

If you have another Apple HDD, I would give it a try.

I just do NOT feel like taking it apart again right now.

It really isn't that big of a deal, and can be totally swapped in about 10 minutes.

You need a T10 and T8 driver, and suction cups for the glass.

The hardest part, which isn't really that big of deal if you have repaired Macs before, is once the eight T10 screws holding the display is out, you need to use little hooks to pull up the display from the top, but only a few inches.

You then need to disconnect four connectors with the display only up about 6 inches at the most. This isn't that hard, but could be confusing for the first time.

The ribbon cable connector is a little different. There is a black tab on the locking bracket. To unlock the bracket, you put that GENTLEY toward the direction of the display, or up if the display is on its back. THEN, you pull the tab toward the top of the Mac, pulling the connector out.

Once the four connectors are out, pull the display out completely, set aside, and the rest could be done in 2 minutes. Two T10 screws holding the HDD bracket on the Mac, two T8 screws holding the HDD bracket on the HDD, and two T8 mounting pegs on the other side. Just swap, and reconnect everything.


While it is probably more than you planned on doing, it might be worth it, as it doesn't take that long, and it might take longer to find another solution.

 

[TrumanLA]

Do you happen to have an Apple HDD sitting around?

If so, maybe try swapping it internally, then run the High Sierra installer and see if it will update the firmware.

There could be some other way to update the boot rom, but I just don't know how. Maybe someone else can chime in.

You really think there's something specific about an OEM APPLE PART NUMBERED DRIVE..?

Not just using the internal SATA connector..? but an OEM Drive via the internal connector..?


Non-OEM drives have one pervasive issue based on their differences (as the system can't tell the customer has been SCREWED with a 90-day warranty for a piece of crap drive that costs about 4x as much)..! lol. And I'm sure you know what it is, also. The stupid thermal sensors which're integrated to OEM drives...

(obviously requires something like SSD Fan Control to avoid incessant high-fan issue.)
(you can also re-purpose a sensor from a parts machine & solder it in, & I think some guy sells them)


Do you know what the exact requirement or distinction is..?
ALL of the OEMs I have are crap.

TBH, I'm absolutely going to just try an SSD connected to the internal SATA...

But, if that fails, I'm obviously also going to try your suggestion and will be SHOCKED if it really requires not only that the HD be internal ... but a damned OEM HD. (Don't worry, I'll come back & honestly report. lol)


If it does, I'll owe you even more of a 'Thank You' ...
Bc I'd NEVER try that ... because there is nothing logical, nor any analogous repair's criteria.

That's based on the experiences of someone who's diagnosed and either fixed or had tech's of mine fix using the exact parts I identified ... of over 10,000 Macs that I either owned for resale ... or of my customers. lol.

Like I said, it would've taken me a LONG time to accept or believe the HD needed to even be internal! lol
I'd've been more likely to transfer a ROM either with my Medusa or from a parts MLB which I have here.

I'd either have NOT figured this out on my own ... or would've taken WAY too long to do so!

So TRULY, thanks again!

 

[TrumanLA]

There might be another way, I just don't know how.

If you have another Apple HDD, I would give it a try.


It really isn't that big of a deal, and can be totally swapped in about 10 minutes.

You need a T10 and T8 driver, and suction cups for the glass.

The hardest part, which isn't really that big of deal if you have repaired Macs before, is once the eight T10 screws holding the display is out, you need to use little hooks to pull up the display from the top, but only a few inches.

You then need to disconnect four connectors with the display only up about 6 inches at the most. This isn't that hard, but could be confusing for the first time.

The ribbon cable connector is a little different. There is a black tab on the locking bracket. To unlock the bracket, you put that GENTLEY toward the direction of the display, or up if the display is on its back. THEN, you pull the tab toward the top of the Mac, pulling the connector out.

Once the four connectors are out, pull the display out completely, set aside, and the rest could be done in 2 minutes. Two T10 screws holding the HDD bracket on the Mac, two T8 screws holding the HDD bracket on the HDD, and two T8 mounting pegs on the other side. Just swap, and reconnect everything.


While it is probably more than you planned on doing, it might be worth it, as it doesn't take that long, and it might take longer to find another solution.

Definitely appreciate the effort and detail you've provided; VERY generous.

It's not 'how' to do it ... it's that my eye sight has gotten way worse in the last few years (mid forties now) ...

Which means I need to either get those 'Dental Loupes' (which I'm REALLY tempted to do) ... because...
Even a nice microscope wouldn't help w things like this! lol.

99% of it is a non-issue; it's the cables which I'm always worried about ... because if I screw one up I have to make my tech come over (to resolder the LVDS connector).

What acuity I do have isn't always 'predictably available.'
Seeing at distance isn't the issue (driving, etc)

What SUCKS is (not only this, and as I mentioned, data recovery requires visual aids)...

But the thing I loved most in life was playing pool.
The most accurate description would be to say I played 'semi-pro' ... as in, professionals had to take me serious unless they had the luxury of playing a long session ... because I can literally beat anyone in a race to 9. My statistics aren't nearly good enough to let me be profitable at it -- and I'm under no disillusion that I'm SVB or Efren ... but had to be respected...

Now, unless eye surgery un-screws my vision ... something I thought I'd do for my entire life is over.

Anyway, again, thank you very much for all the advice you've provided.


Oh! Re: 'possible other means' ...

I just realized, I can probably download the version which has the newest Boot ROM from GhostlyHaks.com (they have all model EFIs available for download, which I'd then need to customize on a windows POS system) to make the SN be the original one ... but it's almost certain that the repository has the most updated version or ... someone probably has one. ... (if no other method is more convenient).

If you do a lot of Mac repairs ... you really should have one.

Thanks again

Truman

 

[DeltaMac]

I'm pretty sure that your external NVME is most affected by the device that you use to interface with that NVME drive. You are not actually booting to the NVME drive -- but to a thunderbolt device (that happens to use an NVME drive)! The enclosure is where the "talk to the NMVE device" happens, and is (mostly) not affected by the firmware version in your iMac.
What I am suggesting: Your iMac, with an NVME m.2 card, installed in a Thunderbolt enclosure, doesn't care that the NVME card is there. All you are using is the Thunderbolt enclosure. If there is a valid system installed, compatible with your iMac, then it should boot when connected through Thunderbolt. I assume that you have tested that external thunderbolt drive (with the NVME card and a system installed) on another Mac. If it boots another Mac, but does not boot your 2011 iMac, then there is something wrong with the Thunderbolt connection, either a cable, or the thunderbolt port on your 2011 iMac, and your iMac has only one TB port. Are you sure it is working?

 

[TrumanLA]

SOLVED: But in a bad way ...

While snooping around the resources of the OS X Mojave Installer (which said: This copy of the Install 10.14 application is damaged, and can‘t be used to install macOS. when I tried to install it on the iMac, but works on other systems)...

I checked out the folder labeled Firmware to see which resources were present.

(After being totally stumped wondering what in the world MP51.fd could mean..?? lol ...)

I now assume that, if (and only if) you're using a 'legacy system' which needs the addition of NVMe, it's provided as a preface to the upgrade to OS X Mojave. Obviously I downloaded this on a 5,1 I wanted able to boot from NVMe drives.

Obviously (and unfortunately), I’m guessing Apple doesn’t provide [all potentially required EFI’s] in each OS X Mojave installer for their customers to have a swiss army knife ... commensurate with what you and I would like. But instead,
provide only what you need (if you even need it), and only if you're upgrading to Mojave...at which point, they provide
the version which has the EFI for the hardware from which you're downloading.

Thus, if the window of opportunity from which,

A. You're eligible // Apple is providing access to 'new downloads' of said OS.
B. Your hardware requires the EFI upgrade
C. Your hardware is supported (per Apple's beliefs) to run Mojave...

Then and only then are you allowed to download the version which contains the EFI to upgrade. your Boot ROM.

This is why (above) I said "you don't have to upgrade to Mojave, just threaten to & it upgrades the EFI in preparation."


Now however, as they’re not even providing access to Operating Systems I’ve previously downloaded from my AppleID ... the only way to get whatever specific version of Mojave (Firmware update) I need to upgrade now (and every time for any other hardware I'd like to update) will be predicated on luck and eventually the repository I'll make to address the issue...which I'm guessing will take a WHILE.

Anyway, again, thank you for all your help earlier ... and here's the pictures which led me to this belief.
(Off to check all the OS's I have laying around from previous customers, and my 'utility' drives to see if any of them serendipitously have Firmware resources.

 

[DeltaMac]

hmm... But you aren't trying to boot from an NVME drive. You would be booting through your Thunderbolt port. The enclosure "interprets" for the NVME stick, but no need for firmware to use the NVME stick. The enclosure/interface takes care of that little issue. If that were not the case - how can I boot from my multi-system boot drive using a 10.5 system, installed on an NVME stick, which is in a USB enclosure, plugged in to a early 2008 Mac. No hope of an EFI update for that Mac, yet it boots perfectly. But, I can't use the NVME stick in an internal m.2 slot (if I had one) as that would have to be a native boot from NVME. Your external drive should boot without issue (assuming a properly installed system on the NVME stick) on any Mac that supports the system you have installed on that NVME stick.

 

[chrfr]

SOLVED: But in a bad way ...

While snooping around the resources of the OS X Mojave Installer (which said: This copy of the Install 10.14 application is damaged, and can‘t be used to install macOS. when I tried to install it on the iMac, but works on other systems)...

I checked out the folder labeled Firmware to see which resources were present.

(After being totally stumped wondering what in the world MP51.fd could mean..?? lol ...)

I now assume that, if (and only if) you're using a 'legacy system' which needs the addition of NVMe, it's provided as a preface to the upgrade to OS X Mojave. Obviously I downloaded this on a 5,1 I wanted able to boot from NVMe drives.

Obviously (and unfortunately), I’m guessing Apple doesn’t provide [all potentially required EFI’s] in each OS X Mojave installer for their customers to have a swiss army knife ... commensurate with what you and I would like. But instead,
provide only what you need (if you even need it), and only if you're upgrading to Mojave...at which point, they provide
the version which has the EFI for the hardware from which you're downloading.

Thus, if the window of opportunity from which,

A. You're eligible // Apple is providing access to 'new downloads' of said OS.
B. Your hardware requires the EFI upgrade
C. Your hardware is supported (per Apple's beliefs) to run Mojave...

Then and only then are you allowed to download the version which contains the EFI to upgrade. your Boot ROM.

This is why (above) I said "you don't have to upgrade to Mojave, just threaten to & it upgrades the EFI in preparation."


Now however, as they’re not even providing access to Operating Systems I’ve previously downloaded from my AppleID ... the only way to get whatever specific version of Mojave (Firmware update) I need to upgrade now (and every time for any other hardware I'd like to update) will be predicated on luck and eventually the repository I'll make to address the issue...which I'm guessing will take a WHILE.

Anyway, again, thank you for all your help earlier ... and here's the pictures which led me to this belief.
(Off to check all the OS's I have laying around from previous customers, and my 'utility' drives to see if any of them serendipitously have Firmware resources.

View attachment 1752900

What you’re trying to do is getting very clouded and I’m not at all clear on what you’re really trying to accomplish here. If it’s just that you’re trying to boot from a Thunderbolt drive, get a High Sierra, not Mojave, installer and put that on the Thunderbolt disk. It does not matter that your Thunderbolt drive happens to contain an NVMe disk.

As I wrote earlier, because Mojave does not support a 2011 iMac, that installer does not include firmware for the 2011 iMac. You will not be able to run an unmodified Mojave installer on a 2011 iMac. Apple OS installers are not generally customized to specific models; the Mojave installer will always have the MP5,1 firmware even if you download it on something that isn’t a Mac Pro 5,1. The error about the Mojave installer being damaged is because you have an old copy with an expired certificate.
In order to get the BootROM to upgrade to 87.0.0.0 on the 2011 iMac, you need to install 10.13.6 on the internal disk, and then apply the security updates available for 10.13.6. This is the only way to update the BootROM on these computers. All of whatever it is you’re trying to do with the Mojave installer is totally irrelevant to this process, so stop wasting your time.

 

[Nguyen Duc Hieu]

In order to get the BootROM to upgrade to 87.0.0.0 on the 2011 iMac, you need to install 10.13.6 on the internal disk, and then apply the security updates available for 10.13.6. This is the only way to update the BootROM on these computers. All of whatever it is you’re trying to do with the Mojave installer is totally irrelevant to this process, so stop wasting your time.

He just likes to have someone to talk with, I guess....

TrumanLA:​

Vertical smiles is one of the very few people who has succesfully run Mac OS on a NVME disk in a thunderbolt 3 enclosure, connected to the iMac 2011 via a thundebolt 3 hub, a thunderbolt 3 to 2 adapter and thunderbolt 2 cable.
That's why he asked about your device in the first place. You have neglected his questions, leading to a lengthy conversation without any actual solution.

 

[TrumanLA]

He just likes to have someone to talk with, I guess....

TrumanLA:​

Vertical smiles is one of the very few people who has succesfully run Mac OS on a NVME disk in a thunderbolt 3 enclosure, connected to the iMac 2011 via a thundebolt 3 hub, a thunderbolt 3 to 2 adapter and thunderbolt 2 cable.
That's why he asked about your device in the first place. You have neglected his questions, leading to a lengthy conversation without any actual solution.

Wooow. One of the few people who booted from an NVMe..?
What a stupid remark.

It's one thing to be unable to follow the plot; but proving that you can't doesn't make me think the problem's mine.

 

[TrumanLA]

hmm... But you aren't trying to boot from an NVME drive. You would be booting through your Thunderbolt port. The enclosure "interprets" for the NVME stick, but no need for firmware to use the NVME stick. The enclosure/interface takes care of that little issue. If that were not the case - how can I boot from my multi-system boot drive using a 10.5 system, installed on an NVME stick, which is in a USB enclosure, plugged in to a early 2008 Mac. No hope of an EFI update for that Mac, yet it boots perfectly. But, I can't use the NVME stick in an internal m.2 slot (if I had one) as that would have to be a native boot from NVME. Your external drive should boot without issue (assuming a properly installed system on the NVME stick) on any Mac that supports the system you have installed on that NVME stick.

No, it doesn't. Yet another person who doesn't even know what he doesn't know -- interjecting idiotic comments.

Post video of a 2012 iMac with a Boot ROM that uses the white boot background.
Booting to 10.12 via NVMe while you're at it -- hell -- it's all handled by the Thunderbolt adapter, right??

 

[TrumanLA]

I'm pretty sure that your external NVME is most affected by the device that you use to interface with that NVME drive. You are not actually booting to the NVME drive -- but to a thunderbolt device (that happens to use an NVME drive)! The enclosure is where the "talk to the NMVE device" happens, and is (mostly) not affected by the firmware version in your iMac.
What I am suggesting: Your iMac, with an NVME m.2 card, installed in a Thunderbolt enclosure, doesn't care that the NVME card is there. All you are using is the Thunderbolt enclosure. If there is a valid system installed, compatible with your iMac, then it should boot when connected through Thunderbolt. I assume that you have tested that external thunderbolt drive (with the NVME card and a system installed) on another Mac. If it boots another Mac, but does not boot your 2011 iMac, then there is something wrong with the Thunderbolt connection, either a cable, or the thunderbolt port on your 2011 iMac, and your iMac has only one TB port. Are you sure it is working?

Think of Thunderbolt as a PCIe SLOT.

Can you boot a Mac Pro 4,1 from an NVMe drive. BEFORE the Mojave Boot ROM update...
(or ... didn't we need the SM951 that was AHCI ...???)

Of course -- you could USE an NVMe drive once in High Sierra (native kexts)
Or inject them if you were using 10.12...

WEIRD you'd need to do that given your concept of Thunderbolt's role in this, no?





MORE IMPORTANTLY:

My assumption that Apple 'Bundled the ROM' with Mojave Upgrader for this iMac is WRONG: Mojave req. 2012+ iMacs

Still ... the 2012 and 2013 iMacs FW appear to have been bundled with Mojave.

I think the error message "This Installer is Damaged" is when it lacks the included FW for the machine installing it.
(as in, it was downloaded on a MP but being installed on a 2012 iMac13,1 ... etc)

 

[chrfr]

the ISSUE ... is that Firmware updates weren't mass released ... and are only COUPLED with the upgrade to Mojave it appears -- FOR THE EXACT HARDWARE of the machine downloading it. (Hence, the MP51 file being the only firmware available on the version I attempted to use). That's IMPORTANT info -- and is why I'll never delete a Mojave installer again without looking at which devices firmware it has in order to compile a repository of different Firmware updates for different hardware.

Your assumption about firmware here is completely wrong. The MP5,1 is the only computer which uses that method for firmware updates, which is why only that model has firmware updates listed in that directory. The installer contains firmware for other models elsewhere in the bundle and the installer isn’t customized for the computer on which it’s downloaded. But I’ll write it once again: there are no firmware updates for a 2011 iMac in the Mojave installer. Look inside the FirmwareUpdate.pkg and you’ll see all the firmware updates included in that installer.

Apple does still offer the Mojave installer for download.

I’ll repeat myself once more before I put the thread on ignore: the security updates for 10.13.6 also include firmware updates for computers, so if those haven’t been installed, the BootROM will not be fully updated on this 2011 iMac, but these firmware updates may not install if the computer is not booted from the internal disk.

 

[DeltaMac]

Nope, there's no "system-specific" downloads for the full OS X/macOS installers.
If you need to download the "latest" Mojave full installer through the App Store, Apple still makes that relatively simple. However, it is no longer searchable on the "first layer" of the App store. This Apple support article provides App store links for Catalina, Mojave and High Sierra, and other "update server" links for Sierra, El Capitan and Yosemite.

After thinking on this for a time - I suspect that your 2011 iMac, with Thunderbolt 1, does not have the same level of bus access as newer thunderbolt versions. Maybe it just does not support an NVME device at PCIe bus level.

I don't assume that troubleshooting is complete. Even techs, who I think should know better, can miss obvious steps. I ask questions, not because I don't think you know what you are doing, but to try out my own steps. You are the only one who knows the answers.

Just for something to try - put that NVME card in a USB enclosure, connect to your 2011 iMac.
Install, and fully update High Sierra on that NVME card. After all security updates, is the firmware now updated, too?
Move that fully-updated card to your chosen TB enclosure, and see if that boots now.