MP 1,1-5,1 5,1 MACPRO SSD UPGRADE CONFIGURATION

[FlyingFortress]

I have a 5,1 Tower 3.06 dual processor and I‘ve just installed a Sapphire RX850 to improve framrates over those of my previous Nvidia (6gb) 980ti (I am an XPlane Simmer).The card works great.

My next upgrade will be swapping out my existing 2 TB spinning boot drove (which I will clone to the SSD) to get faster boots and data transfers. I was looking at a Samsung 960 EVO SATAIII SSD but I’ve been reading that the SSD chips on a PCI 16x card via the logic board allow significantly faster transfer speeds than using an SSD SATA drive in a sled, plugged into a traditional drive bay. I saw a video posted on this with some software manipulation for Majave but I’m staying with HS because of some legacy software concerns.

Anybody really get into these two different SSD configurations in our machines? Thanks for the help.

 

[fhturner]

Hi, welcome to the forums. Yes, a PCIe SSD like a 960 or 970 EVO will yield significantly higher performance than, say, an 860 EVO in a SATA drive bay. There is a TON of information about this sort of thing in numerous other threads. Please make use of the search function and familiarize yourself with the details in those threads. Good luck with your upgrade...I’d recommend the PCIe version.

 

[sfalatko]

Take a read of this thread - PCIe SSDs - NVMe & AHCI - with attention to the two links at the end of the "macOS NVMe Support" paragraph. To boot from a NVMe drive you need to get your BootROM upgraded but NVMe drives will give you the best performance from your PCIe slot.

 

[FlyingFortress]

Thank you, FH. That’s very helpful. I’m new to this forum but I have been living with Macs of all flavors since before Power PC. Always scary and frustrating (and sometimes expensive) to squeeze as much performance out of these loyal beasts of burden as possible before you have to toss them.

Your definitive comments favoring the blade configuration for the SSD chipset is consistent with the pattern of recommendations I‘ve seen elsewhere but yours is the most specific. Much appreciated.

I also see quite a bit written about upgrading the CPUs (in my case, dual 306s) as being as effective in increasing FPS (X-Plane 11) as upgrading that GPU which I’ve just done (Sapphire RX 850). The consensus has been to first upgrade GPU, then CPU. Then I see conflicting recommendations between adding much more system ram (I have 20 GB but that’s fine for Adobe Suite because I’m not a video editor).

The discussions on going to SSDs over spinning hard drives is universal and clearly beneficial in terms of data throughput. And that’s very high on my wish list. But I’m now seeing considerable dialog on upgrading first to faster processors to increase FPS as being more effective than going to SSDs —ASSUMING THAT I could ONLY CHOSE ONE of these upgrades first.

There are any number of YouTube’s on this 5,1 Mac Pro processor upgrade detailing the physical work needed to do this. Although near the outside range of my skill sets, I could probably get it done given enough care and attention.

In any case, if you were faced with having to decide which to do first — SSDs OR processor upgrade (dual, 342 from 306), which would you choose (BTW, unlike Photoshop which sees dual processor, X-Plane only sees one)?

And as an interesting aside, X-Plane is going to Vulcan graphics architecture, probably within months. It’s in its later stages of beta.
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Take a read of this thread - PCIe SSDs - NVMe & AHCI - with attention to the two links at the end of the "macOS NVMe Support" paragraph. To boot from a NVMe drive you need to get your BootROM upgraded but NVMe drives will give you the best performance from your PCIe slot.

Thanks, SF. I think I had seen that as well and became a bit intimidated by having to upgrade my BootROM. I’m in the latest build of High Sierra and I need to stay with that until I can’t. I saw a great YouTube by Michael Brown on this very issue last night and he very aggressively agrees on nVMe as well. HOWEVER, for X-Plane, he makes a very good case for spending your money on the larger SSD (SATA) rather than just spending on the speed. He demonstrates through bench tests that (in X-Plane) the net, net, in-game speed advantage does not yield as much of a speed bump as we might think (over other upgrade strategies).

 

[iluvmacs99]

I own a Mac Pro 5,1 (well a 4,1 updated to 5,1) with dual tray, but with a pair of E5520 Xeons that gives me 8 cores/16T. I find it fast enough for me, on par with a Mac Mini 2018 Core i3 in multi-core performance without the thermal issues. I have a pair of internal SSDs set to RAID 0 and also a pair of spinning hard drives set to RAID 0 and an external USB 3 SSD drive. My RAID 0 SSD setup boots up really quick and launch applications as quick as well. The performance of the RAID 0 SSD is about half of what you can achieve with a PCIe NVMe blade drive. I can do pretty much everything with the RAID 0 SSD as well as the spinning hard drives in RAID 0 from Photoshop, DXO Photolab, Topaz AI and Davinci Resolve 4k/24p edits. You would only need PCIe NVMe blade drives if you are planning to edit multiple RAW 4K/60p footages. Keep in mind that High Sierra does not have a more mature RX580 graphics support compared to Mojave, so whatever graphics performance you can achieve in High Sierra can be achieved much higher with Mojave even without a CPU upgrade. Though a pair of 3.06Ghz isn't too shabby and will help improve games performance, Mojave will improve better just because it has better RX580 driver and GPU acceleration support. But since you are staying in High Sierra, just like what I have on my Mac Pro for compatibility sakes with older soft, you will get as best as what you can get with your RX580. Since you have the Westmere Xeons, going to Mojave would be easy. I need to upgrade my Nehalems to Westmere eventually to squeeze more performance out of mine.

I also play X-Plane 9, but it is on my PowerMac G5 when it's not doing its server duties.

 

[FlyingFortress]

I own a Mac Pro 5,1 (well a 4,1 updated to 5,1) with dual tray, but with a pair of E5520 Xeons that gives me 8 cores/16T. I find it fast enough for me, on par with a Mac Mini 2018 Core i3 in multi-core performance without the thermal issues. I have a pair of internal SSDs set to RAID 0 and also a pair of spinning hard drives set to RAID 0 and an external USB 3 SSD drive. My RAID 0 SSD setup boots up really quick and launch applications as quick as well. The performance of the RAID 0 SSD is about half of what you can achieve with a PCIe NVMe blade drive. I can do pretty much everything with the RAID 0 SSD as well as the spinning hard drives in RAID 0 from Photoshop, DXO Photolab, Topaz AI and Davinci Resolve 4k/24p edits. You would only need PCIe NVMe blade drives if you are planning to edit multiple RAW 4K/60p footages. Keep in mind that High Sierra does not have a more mature RX580 graphics support compared to Mojave, so whatever graphics performance you can achieve in High Sierra can be achieved much higher with Mojave even without a CPU upgrade. Though a pair of 3.06Ghz isn't too shabby and will help improve games performance, Mojave will improve better just because it has better RX580 driver and GPU acceleration support. But since you are staying in High Sierra, just like what I have on my Mac Pro for compatibility sakes with older soft, you will get as best as what you can get with your RX580. Since you have the Westmere Xeons, going to Mojave would be easy. I need to upgrade my Nehalems to Westmere eventually to squeeze more performance out of mine.

I also play X-Plane 9, but it is on my PowerMac G5 when it's not doing its server duties.

WOW, ILUV, thanks for the chock-full-of great information reply. This is very valuable information because it gives me so many ideas. Thanks for your patience in advance but I will be annoying you with some questions, though maybe just one or two at a time.

I loved my old Power Mac G5. That was such a stable and reliable platform but unfortunately it aged out on us. I guess my mid-2012 5,1 is a last vestige of that legacy, except for the new cheese graters just out. Tim Cook is likely a good guy, but had Jobs lived, I’m thinking that he would have launched a new but still powerful Mac Pro base model at around four grand for the rest of us normal folk.

I get from your response info (correct me if I’m wrong), that you believe I’d be fine with a blade PCI SATA SSD and that confirms what I learned from David Brown’s direct real world comparisons of the SATA and the NVMe. Don’t laugh, but I’m shooting for a 2TB Samsung set.

I wasn’t aware that my Sapphire RX 580 would improve noticeably with the better optimization offered running it in Mojave. But as you’re doing, I’m staying with HS.

Are you also saying that upgrading processors from dual 306s to 346s would yield improvements in X-Plane that are not worth the effort? Remember X-Plane works on 2 main engines for fast redraws, CPU and GPU. and much of what makes X-Plane fluid and immersive is based on a robust processor, ideally, according to the X-Plane community, i7 or above.

I have never configured RAID on any of my machines because storage has not been an issue for me. Will a raid configuration help me in X-Plane? Again, the Holy Grail of X-Plane is maintaining robust frame rates of 30 and over.

As I’ve said in other threads, Vulcan is coming to X-Plane. It’s already in the late beta stages. It is said that Vulcan technology will improve frame rats by 30%.

So should I aim at that processor upgrade or the blade SSD? And while I’m at it, I have 20 gb of system ram. Do I need more?

Wait, one more thing. X-Plane is gaining a high rate of acceptance in the VR world. It is said to require at least 30% more in system requiremeto to get X-PLANE to run at the same FPS as in your non-VR.

 

[kohlson]

Most if not all of the questions you ask in your original post are covered very thoroughly in the sticky threads at the top of the Mac Pro Forum. This includes upgrading BootROM and HS.
Something to consider about SSDs is that SATA and NVMe are essentially the same $/GB. The difference is performance.

 

[iluvmacs99]

WOW, ILUV, thanks for the chock-full-of great information reply. This is very valuable information because it gives me so many ideas. Thanks for your patience in advance but I will be annoying you with some questions, though maybe just one or two at a time.

I loved my old Power Mac G5. That was such a stable and reliable platform but unfortunately it aged out on us. I guess my mid-2012 5,1 is a last vestige of that legacy, except for the new cheese graters just out. Tim Cook is likely a good guy, but had Jobs lived, I’m thinking that he would have launched a new but still powerful Mac Pro base model at around four grand for the rest of us normal folk.

I get from your response info (correct me if I’m wrong), that you believe I’d be fine with a blade PCI SATA SSD and that confirms what I learned from David Brown’s direct real world comparisons of the SATA and the NVMe. Don’t laugh, but I’m shooting for a 2TB Samsung set.

I wasn’t aware that my Sapphire RX 580 would improve noticeably with the better optimization offered running it in Mojave. But as you’re doing, I’m staying with HS.

Are you also saying that upgrading processors from dual 306s to 346s would yield improvements in X-Plane that are not worth the effort? Remember X-Plane works on 2 main engines for fast redraws, CPU and GPU. and much of what makes X-Plane fluid and immersive is based on a robust processor, ideally, according to the X-Plane community, i7 or above.

I have never configured RAID on any of my machines because storage has not been an issue for me. Will a raid configuration help me in X-Plane? Again, the Holy Grail of X-Plane is maintaining robust frame rates of 30 and over.

As I’ve said in other threads, Vulcan is coming to X-Plane. It’s already in the late beta stages. It is said that Vulcan technology will improve frame rats by 30%.

So should I aim at that processor upgrade or the blade SSD? And while I’m at it, I have 20 gb of system ram. Do I need more?

Wait, one more thing. X-Plane is gaining a high rate of acceptance in the VR world. It is said to require at least 30% more in system requiremeto to get X-PLANE to run at the same FPS as in your non-VR.

Well, the Westmere X5675 (which is the 3.06Ghz version) vs Westmere X5680/5690 aren't going to give you any significant boost compared to coming from the older slower Nehalem processors, so for games wise, you would probably be better served wtih the NVMe PCIe blade drives, which are going to give you lower latency in terms of your game's performance. If you are a simmer and you like more fluid flight performance, I suggest thinking about getting a Windows PC for that.

If you already have a pair of X5675 in yours, then the blade NVMe PCIe SSD is good upgrade. I use RAID 0, because I had a few SATA SSDs lying around from my dead Quad Windows PC. If I am to start a new, then I would go for the NVMe blade drive instead as both SATA and PCIe versions cost relatively the same /Gb storage wise. The only difference is that the blade NVMe drive is much faster than SATA SSDs even raided in RAID 0.

Just out of curiosity. Since you're an experienced X-Plane simmer, which flight stick would you recommend me for a novice simmer for X-Plane 9 with my PowerMac G5? Thanks!

 

[FlyingFortress]

Most if not all of the questions you ask in your original post are covered very thoroughly in the sticky threads at the top of the Mac Pro Forum. This includes upgrading BootROM and HS.
Something to consider about SSDs is that SATA and NVMe are essentially the same $/GB. The difference is performance.

Thank you, my apologies.

 

[FlyingFortress]

Well, the Westmere X5675 (which is the 3.06Ghz version) vs Westmere X5680/5690 aren't going to give you any significant boost compared to coming from the older slower Nehalem processors, so for games wise, you would probably be better served wtih the NVMe PCIe blade drives, which are going to give you lower latency in terms of your game's performance. If you are a simmer and you like more fluid flight performance, I suggest thinking about getting a Windows PC for that.

If you already have a pair of X5675 in yours, then the blade NVMe PCIe SSD is good upgrade. I use RAID 0, because I had a few SATA SSDs lying around from my dead Quad Windows PC. If I am to start a new, then I would go for the NVMe blade drive instead as both SATA and PCIe versions cost relatively the same /Gb storage wise. The only difference is that the blade NVMe drive is much faster than SATA SSDs even raided in RAID 0.

Just out of curiosity. Since you're an experienced X-Plane simmer, which flight stick would you recommend me for a novice simmer for X-Plane 9 with my PowerMac G5? Thanks!

First, the decent ones will run around $100, new. And second, for the best experience, simmers use a stick (or yoke), a set of rudder pedals and a throttle quadrant. I’ve always used Thrustmaster but there are others. Some sticks come with a “twisting” feature built into the stick which for some users, eliminates the need for the rudder pedals although twisting the stick to contro raw for me is not intuitive.

Depending on your location, you might find some used ones on Craigslist (I don’t use eBay). I’m Guessing that you could pick one up for cheap, maybe $20 but I’d look for the set of three controllers (make sure they’re USB because there are still many ADB versions in guys’ attics).

X-Plane 9 was a fine version, still fun to fly. Also at least a gig of V-ram on the GPU would help. Keep me posted and let me know if you have more questions.

 

[iluvmacs99]

Thank you @FlyingFortress for wealth of information on the stick controller. I'll prowl through Craigslist to see if anyone is selling them used. I did find some old ADB ones for sale, but I realized they're not for my G5. I like the fun aspect of X-Plane9 and enjoyed flying with it. Just need a decent stick to give me a more immersed experience.

 

[FlyingFortress]

Thank you @FlyingFortress for wealth of information on the stick controller. I'll prowl through Craigslist to see if anyone is selling them used. I did find some old ADB ones for sale, but I realized they're not for my G5. I like the fun aspect of X-Plane9 and enjoyed flying with it. Just need a decent stick to give me a more immersed experience.

Sorry, iLUV... for the typo in my flight stick info. It was supposed to say “yaw control.” Sometimes these blog apps acknowledge your edits but when you hit “reply” they “forget” the edit.

So I hear your advice that my upgrade to two 5690s from my existing 5675s (3.02s) will not yield the increases in frame rates that I thought. I could buy them refurbished for about $250 for the pair. But with the dicy installation risks and the already adequate 3.06s in place, staying with your blade NVMe recommendation makes better sense. BTW, I’m going for a 2TB Samsung because I will be cloning my 2TB spinning boot drive and the blade drive will be my boot drive. I do need to implement a more efficient storage strategy that I’ve been working on but I did want ALL of X-Plane on the fastest boot drive.

But now I will really have to dive into any ROM or compatibility issues with my latest High Sierra build (66). I remember reading something about having to flash the ROM on this blade drive for my 5,1 to see it.?

 

[iluvmacs99]

Sorry, iLUV... for the typo in my flight stick info. It was supposed to say “yaw control.” Sometimes these blog apps acknowledge your edits but when you hit “reply” they “forget” the edit.

So I hear your advice that my upgrade to two 5690s from my existing 5675s (3.02s) will not yield the increases in frame rates that I thought. I could buy them refurbI shed for about $250 for the pair. But with the dicy installation risks and the already adequate 3.06s in place, staying with your blade NVMe recommendation makes better sense. BTW, I’m going for a 2TB one because I will be cloning my 2TB spinning boot drive and the blade drive will be my boot drive. I do need to implement a more efficient storage strategy that I’ve been working on but I did want ALL of X-Plane on the fastest boot drive.

But now I will really have to dive into any ROM or compatibility issues with my latest High Sierra build (66). I remember reading something about having to flash the ROM on this blade drive for my 5,1 to see it.?

Yes; all you need to make sure is that your bootrom should be @ 144.0.0.0.0. If you are still @MP5,1, then you need to flash it to 144 in order to allow your blade NVMe drive to boot. There is a guide to do so and is relatively easy. I did that already on mine. And thanks for the correction. I thought that so myself that I think you were referring to yaw control.

 

[FlyingFortress]

Yes; all you need to make sure is that your bootrom should be @ 144.0.0.0.0. If you are still @MP5,1, then you need to flash it to 144 in order to allow your blade NVMe drive to boot. There is a guide to do so and is relatively easy. I did that already on mine. And thanks for the correction. I thought that so myself that I think you were referring to yaw control.

Thanks, good info.