A new approach to macOS (for ARM based macs?)

[Populus]

Hello.

In this moment where a lot of people is speculating about those new ARM based Macs I am wondering if they will run the same old OS X style operating system, or if macOS will suffer a major redesign sharing a lot of code with iPadOS. A new fork for ARM based machines.

At the same time, yesterday I formatted my 2014 Mac mini, which is attached to a 1080p display, and I found the font being too small in some menus and settings. I can make the titles of each folder bigger, I can change the favorites on the side bar of the Finder from medium to bigger, and I can enlarge the icons all over the system, yes. But there are many parts of the operating system where the fonts are still rather small and this cannot be changed (system preferences, pref menus on each app, etc)

Then I looked at my iPad Pro. I looked at my iPhone. iOS/iPadOS has an option to select in a granular way the size of the font system-wise. And I miss options like that on macOS.

So, if Apple is about to release a whole new lineup of ARM based Macs with a new operating system, this would be a feature from iOS I’d like them to include. And I’m sure there are other interesting features from iOS/iPadOS that could make the jump to this (new) macOS.

Which features from iOS/iPadOS do you miss on your Mac that could be included with a new version of macOS for ARM? I know, we don’t want our macs to become very limited with an iOS style operating system, but I don’t think it would hurt to take some interesting ideas for the Mac, now that they are going to use the same type of microprocessors, and probably an operating system with a lot of shared code.

 

[casperes1996]

Well you could always change the scaling factor in Display preferences. There's also zoom in Accessibility settings; I use that myself a fair bit

 

[Populus]

Well you could always change the scaling factor in Display preferences. There's also zoom in Accessibility settings; I use that myself a fair bit

The scaling factor only works on 4K displays and macs capable of managing high pixel density screens. Many Mac minis (aside from the last one, from 2018) cannot use an UHD display and anyways my screen is a 1080p.

I’m not asking for a solution for my problem with system fonts -it was just an example- because yeah, I use the zoom as well. I created this thread because I realized there are interesting features from iOS/iPadOS that could make the jump to a new macOS for ARM, which will share a lot of code with iOS/iPadOS probably. The ability to modify the font size system-wide is very useful, so now I am asking: Which other iOS/iPad OS would you like to see in a new macOS approach?

 

[casperes1996]

I’m not asking for a solution for my problem with system fonts -it was just an example- because yeah, I use the zoom as well. I created this thread because I realized there are interesting features from iOS/iPadOS that could make the jump to a new macOS for ARM, which will share a lot of code with iOS/iPadOS probably. The ability to modify the font size system-wide is very useful, so now I am asking: Which other iOS/iPad OS would you like to see in a new macOS approach?

Sure; Just figured I’d throw in a potential workaround.

To be honest though I couldn’t tell you a single thing I’d want from a new macOS. Inspired by iOS or otherwise. Performance and stability. And I really wouldn’t care much if Apple said that there’d be no new features in macOS for the next 4 years. It’d just be iterative performance and stability improvements.
A relatively small feature like Dynamic Fonts would be nice enough - not sure I’d use it much myself, but definitely nice. It wouldn’t work with everything which I think might make Apple Hesitant to go with a similar solution to iOS. Any program that doesn’t use the text from UIKit or AppKit (Cocoa) likely wouldn’t work with the system.

My number one feature request actually is for better developer tools. A reworking of Xcode would be nice. Frankly the editor itself is too slow. Storyboard files load really slowly compared to loading the layout XMLs in Android Studio. Storyboards are also nicer to work with but it’s frustrating how slowly they load. And the error messages in SwiftUI are bad.
A faster and easier way of editing the Apple Scripts that are useable with Folder Actions would be nice too.

Not really anything from iOS though

 

[Fishrrman]

Remember when some said Apple had the intent to merge the MacOS with iOS?
Remember the laughs when that was brought up?
Folks may still laugh,
But... the laughter... is dying down...

 

[casperes1996]

Remember when some said Apple had the intent to merge the MacOS with iOS?
Remember the laughs when that was brought up?
Folks may still laugh,
But... the laughter... is dying down...

I still don't see macOS and iOS merging at all. Convergence of development, yes, but not the OS itself. Taking parts of macOS to iOS and vice versa doesn't mean the operating systems will become one. They've done that all the way back in Lion. A little bit in Snow Leopard even, when they introduced multi touch gestures and The App Store.
Catalyst and SwiftUI make cross platform development simpler, but it doesn't mean the platforms can't still stay distinct and I strongly believe they will.

 

[MichaelDT]

I hope MacOS on ARM just doesn't happen. It'll be the Apple III all over again. Look no vents!

 

[LogicalApex]

I will hold off until the keynote to see what they bring. But I still can’t see what value an ARM mac adds to the mix.

Desktop computing is increasingly niche and focused on professional workloads. Consumer workloads are being moved to phones and/or tablets.

for everything professional users would lose like VMs and etc. I see nothing for them to gain.

 

[casperes1996]

I will hold off until the keynote to see what they bring. But I still can’t see what value an ARM mac adds to the mix.

Desktop computing is increasingly niche and focused on professional workloads. Consumer workloads are being moved to phones and/or tablets.

for everything professional users would lose like VMs and etc. I see nothing for them to gain.

Well, I can sort of think of one situation actually.

If you're primarily developing iOS software, having a Mac as your development platform with a chip that brings that platform closer to the distribution target might be considered a benefit, especially if it means the iOS simulator becomes "more real".

But for everything else, I imagine it'll be relatively invisible anyway with good x86-64 -> aarch64 JIT translation

 

[casperes1996]

I just thought of a pun and didn't feel it'd be appropriate to make an all new thread for it, but it fits here...

If this all goes tits up, it could be the ARMageddon...

 

[LogicalApex]

Well, I can sort of think of one situation actually.

If you're primarily developing iOS software, having a Mac as your development platform with a chip that brings that platform closer to the distribution target might be considered a benefit, especially if it means the iOS simulator becomes "more real".

But for everything else, I imagine it'll be relatively invisible anyway with good x86-64 -> aarch64 JIT translation

I'd argue that you could get a iOS simulator that more closely tracks real with better x86 to ARM translation. Whereas you won't be able to emulate 100% of x86 perfectly or at equal performance so you'll clip many professional workflows entirely. For instance, running a VM or bootcamping Windows will no longer be possible disrupting the workflows for many many IT professionals.

I can see Apple expanding ARM chips on their Macs for specific tasks, like T2 already handles encryption and other functions, but removing x86 entirely from a mature and increasingly niche platform only seems to me to be the death kneel for it. The average consumers who would benefit from an ARM only future are already on iPads especially considering the new iPad with a keyboard and trackpad case that makes it look like a MacBook. I fail to see how turning the MacBook into an iPad without a touch screen doesn't kill the Mac platform while offering nothing of real value.

 

[MacGizmo]

...But I still can’t see what value an ARM mac adds to the mix.

Yeah, significantly increased battery life, double (literally) the speed of the fastest Intel desktop chip available, portability inside the machine, decrease update cycle by an order of magnitude, cheaper to make, no licensing fees, full control over the processor creation... none of those things bring any value.

 

[LogicalApex]

Yeah, significantly increased battery life, double (literally) the speed of the fastest Intel desktop chip available, portability inside the machine, decrease update cycle by an order of magnitude, cheaper to make, no licensing fees, full control over the processor creation... none of those things bring any value.

Increased battery life would be nice, but meaningless if it can’t perform the tasks I need it to perform... Not sure about the rest of your points. I am sure Apple Pay’s licensing fees to license ARM architecture...

 

[anthony13]

I just thought of a pun and didn't feel it'd be appropriate to make an all new thread for it, but it fits here...

If this all goes tits up, it could be the ARMageddon...

As an expert in bad dad jokes I applaud you.

 

[Populus]

Thanks to the mods for moving this thread to the new ARM subforum. Nice.

I have to admit that macOS is still macOS after all, however it seems it was completely rewritten for the new ARM architecture.

 

[HowardEv]

Sure; Just figured I’d throw in a potential workaround.

Because that’d be really annoying?
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Does iOS run on the Mach kernel like MacOS does (or did?)?. Is there a Terminal for iOS?

 

[jerwin]

Yeah, significantly increased battery life, double (literally) the speed of the fastest Intel desktop chip available

Which benchmark? And which chip?

 

[Realityck]

Remember when some said Apple had the intent to merge the MacOS with iOS?
Remember the laughs when that was brought up?
Folks may still laugh,
But... the laughter... is dying down...

I don't mind adding kinda Rosetta for iOS apps within MacOS, but I have fond memories of windows 8.1 of MS trying to make the OS more universal across tablets, phones, and desktops. Its in this guise I think Apple's current management is forgetting that its a lot better to cater to multiple solutions then a single solution. While I think they should make a ARM laptop, as they are kinda already doing it with iPad and keyboard, I want that to be one solution. But don't mess up the business side of things and say this is our definition of high performance while it really is not.

 

[casperes1996]

Does iOS run on the Mach kernel like MacOS does (or did?)?. Is there a Terminal for iOS?

Yes to Mach and sort of to Terminal. - Apple obviously doesn't provide a Terminal app for iOS, but there is actually bash in /bin on iOS.
Remember when Steve Jobs revealed the first iPhone? Remember how he said that the iPhone runs OS X? iOS had its own UI framework, which is now also on macOS for the purposes of Catalyst, but other than that it's more or less the same as macOS

 

[Mac Heretic]

How about this: I started to think about using an ARM Mac with iOS apps (or further developed macOS apps) with Sidecar screen sharing that would have pencil and touch support enabled. I even thought about it further and then my head started to spin.

 

[Populus]

How about this: I started to think about using an ARM Mac with iOS apps (or further developed macOS apps) with Sidecar screen sharing that would have pencil and touch support enabled. I even thought about it further and then my head started to spin.

Honestly if I were to buy an ARM Apple Laptop, I'd immediately sell my iPad Pro. Sometimes I miss to attach the secondary screen and use both screens at the same time. But then, when I have to move outside and carry my computer with me all day, I'm glad I have an iPad Pro with a Smart Keyboard Folio. Only 700g in total.

Conclusion: I'm afraid to end up with both, an iPad Pro, and an ARM Macbook in the future. Nah, I'm joking, I don't have so much money to spend.

 

[NT1440]

Remember when some said Apple had the intent to merge the MacOS with iOS?
Remember the laughs when that was brought up?
Folks may still laugh,
But... the laughter... is dying down...

Because of ignorance? Apple KEEPS reiterating that the Mac and iPad lines are not converging. They made that explicit in tons of WWDC sessions and follow up interviews. It’s just not their product development philosophy, period.

 

[cmaier]

Because of ignorance? Apple KEEPS reiterating that the Mac and iPad lines are not converging. They made that explicit in tons of WWDC sessions and follow up interviews. It’s just not their product development philosophy, period.

Pretty sure macos and ipados will converge in some ways. Touch screen macs are likely to finally come now that the macos chrome is a bit bigger and spaced out, and multitouch ios/ipados can run on it. Probably Apple Pencil support first, then touch in a future year. And ipados is likely to gain more mac-like window management, now that keyboard/mouse support is in the system.

But macos will always be macos and ipados/ios will always be ipados/ios.

 

[matrix07]

Pretty sure macos and ipados will converge in some ways. Touch screen macs are likely to finally come now that the macos chrome is a bit bigger and spaced out

Could we have Screen Sharing on iPad already? That space between icon is ideal to share Mac screen on iPad using Apple Pencil.