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B S Magnet

macrumors 603
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I know, I know… before anyone comes in here with “just use OCLP…”, I’ma stop that line and say, “Sit tight with that suggestion.”

My lament comes from a turnover, even if one long-planned by design, of ever-mounting kludges and security fixes required to keep internet services (whose core functions don’t fundamentally change) running on devices deemed, somewhat arbitrarily, as “obsolete”.

In part, some of my lament also extends to the remedial need to push out security patches for hastily-deployed OSes whose lifespans are now comically short (for which it’s been quite a long while since any version of macOS was given the care, support, and time it needed to mature into a rock solid foundation).

My lament is for needing to make less-than-stellar planning decisions on how one can, should, and/or will use their Early Intel Macs for at least the rest of, well, this decade. I know Silicon Mac adopters may roll their eyes over this. That’s OK: I don’t care. I’m a weirdo: atop well-executed and open software, I also prefer well-designed and well-built hardware, able to handle the rough and tumble of everyday usage, and able to be repaired without jumping through Byzantine hoops or dealing with giant headaches in order to do so.

My specific lament, the one to prompt this post?

As of Signal Foundation’s announcement last month, come March, one may no longer use an iteration of macOS able, simultaneously, to run 32-bit software alongside secure, internet-based services like Signal (and, I’m sure there are many others). Though my handheld phone is the source on which that desktop client relies, I treat Signal more as a texting platform. This means using the desktop client. As such, typing replies on a physical keyboard is, always, more intuitive and, always, less annoying than doing the same on any glass interface in existence.

Likewise, although offset by @wicknix ’s wonderful project, SeaLion, Mozilla Foundation’s support for Firefox also terminates later this year for the last versions of macOS able to, again, also handle the 32-bit stuff. (Dropping Mojave did come as a minor surprise, honestly, in that it was the first major version to set the groundwork for the current trio of Apple-supported macOS builds — Metal baseline support, foremost, coming to mind.)

For the “just use OCLP…” subset of folks I’ve asked to sit tight until after this post, virtualization is not a workaround, especially around audio/MIDI-related demands. No amount of running VMware Fusion or Parallels on a late Intel Mac with Sonoma as its host OS can navigate entirely around those limits. There’s a place for singular-focus tools and another for Swiss Army knives. I’ve always tended to keep the latter around, as they’re far more indispensable.

I doubt there will be a way to work around, say, the Signal support issue — no way to trick Signal to rely on security protocols and patches for an OS lacking them. So this may mean, for me, at least, needing two classes of Early Intel Mac models running as daily drivers (instead of merely one) — one with Mojave (and also, well, a second partition with Snow Leopard, because obviously), and another with, probably, Monterey (as, arguably, the least troublesome of the 64-bit-only, post-macOS 10.x builds).

This shift may, at long last, be what finally nudges me toward migrating more and more of my work to some kind of a Linux-based OS destination (I know, perish the thought: “this is the year of desktop Linux!”), but even that doesn’t resolve using Internet services without relying on using some kind of VM setup — even if the guest OS is what runs the Linux portion.

So, my lament for a fantastically long run of versatility workarounds which make the Early Intel Macs (and the PowerPC Macs) forums the scrappy, wonderful places they’ve always been. It is my lament for a run shortened by synthetic, planned obsolescence which few, other than shareholders, really ever pine for.

And a happy new year to all. :)
 
In part, some of my lament also extends to the remedial need to push out security patches for hastily-deployed OSes whose lifespans are now comically short (for which it’s been quite a long while since any version of macOS was given the care, support, and time it needed to mature into a rock solid foundation).

If enough of us objected to this, it would come to a swift end but unfortunately that's highly unlikely to happen. I never thought I'd end up envying Microsoft Windows users in this regard. 98SE was supported right into 2006! The stuff that Apple are getting away with these days must make their rivals at Redmond quite envious.

My lament is for needing to make less-than-stellar planning decisions on how one can, should, and/or will use their Early Intel Macs for at least the rest of, well, this decade. I know Silicon Mac adopters may roll their eyes over this.

Ok but if they do, that's their lookout. After all, this is the Early Intel Macs forum and our mission is to get the most out of our machines and to help others to do the same. :)

That’s OK: I don’t care. I’m a weirdo: atop well-executed and open software, I also prefer well-designed and well-built hardware, able to handle the rough and tumble of everyday usage, and able to be repaired without jumping through Byzantine hoops or dealing with giant headaches in order to do so.

I think you'll find that most of us within this and the PPC forum share your position. ;)

My specific lament, the one to prompt this post?

As of Signal Foundation’s announcement last month, come March, one may no longer use an iteration of macOS able, simultaneously, to run 32-bit software alongside secure, internet-based services like Signal (and, I’m sure there are many others). Though my handheld phone is the source on which that desktop client relies, I treat Signal more as a texting platform. This means using the desktop client. As such, typing replies on a physical keyboard is, always, more intuitive and, always, less annoying than doing the same on any glass interface in existence.

I'm facing the same predicament having received this warning after the latest - and probably final - update to the desktop version of Signal (for my OS version) was installed on my High Sierra daily driver not too long ago.

yZwA26H.png


As with you, I predominantly use the desktop versions of Signal and WhatsApp because I can tie them into my Mac sessions and exchange files and URL's on the computer where I'll have much greater access to this stuff as opposed to my smartphone and I prefer sending and replying to messages on a computer keyboard than the comparatively cramped and restricted touch screen.

WhatsApp stopped working on my High Sierra daily driver before the official shut-off and I was unable to correct this even after uninstalling it, eliminating any lingering files and then performing a reinstall. Eventually I found a fairly workable alternative in the form of All-In-One Messenger.

VAjXrPx.png


It provides the web version of WhatsApp within a multi-client program. Have a look at the wide array that are available!

7EUdK0K.png


Tellingly, it has proven to be more reliable than Meta's own desktop software which often froze - locking up the computer for a few minutes before announcing that it was restarting due to some issue but I do miss a few features from the desktop version and it's a shame that there isn't an open source client that takes up the slack in this respect.

On that note...

I doubt there will be a way to work around, say, the Signal support issue — no way to trick Signal to rely on security protocols and patches for an OS lacking them. So this may mean, for me, at least, needing two classes of Early Intel Mac models running as daily drivers (instead of merely one) — one with Mojave (and also, well, a second partition with Snow Leopard, because obviously), and another with, probably, Monterey (as, arguably, the least troublesome of the 64-bit-only, post-macOS 10.x builds).

Signal is apparently open source with the client and server source code available for anyone to access via GitHub. It's possible that if there are people among us who're inclined enough to take a look underneath the hood, there's the chance that a solution could be found. Our community has given us many a miracle in the past. :D


So, my lament for a fantastically long run of versatility workarounds which make the Early Intel Macs (and the PowerPC Macs) forums the scrappy, wonderful places they’ve always been. It is my lament for a run shortened by synthetic, planned obsolescence which few, other than shareholders, really ever pine for.

And a happy new year to all. :)

Cheers! :)
 
You have my sympathies. For me it was Element Messenger, which suddenly broke in a minor update (1.11.47 was fine, 1.11.48 gave an "OS too old" error). There was initially nothing in the change log about it, although they went back and added it after I logged it as a bug. After all, if something suddenly stops working and there's no documentation about it, why wouldn't you log a bug? But they confirmed that it was deliberate.

Fortunately the old version still works if you disable updates, but I wonder how long it'll last. The protocol is documented, so at least in theory it should be possible to keep it running indefinitely, but the big question is whether anyone will bother with keeping an "old" client up to date.
 
Having been around computers for 40 years, it used to be that by the time an OS was no longer receiving support, the hardware felt so outdated it was a chore to even bother running things on the machine. In the past 15 years, with modern upgrades, this has changed.

I have 10-15 year old Macs with hardware upgrades, that are perfectly fine for basic web browsing, productivity/Microsoft Office and media consumption. But outdated OS means limited browser and app support, even though the hardware is perfectly fine. Yes, OCLP helps but it's not without its own issues (no fault of the developers).

So I'm more frustrated with both Apple and Windows for not supporting the operating systems for longer. Yes I realize that security is the excuse, or at least their guiding principle. But what about all the e-waste? It borders on ridiculous, when you consider how much actually ends up in a landfill.

I love new Macs. Just got my fourth Apple Silicon machine (M3 Pro!) and it's amazing. But my old Intels still keep plugging along and could live out a few more years gracefully with some longer support. Sigh.
 
Update: Signal on High Sierra and Mojave ceased to work a short while ago, exactly a month earlier than stated in their warning.

What I prepared about a month ago, to maintain a desktop client mirror, was to use VMware Fusion to create a VM to install the lightest build of Linux I could find. I went with antiX (“antics”), set it up with zzz-iceWM for a desktop environment, and added Signal to one of the workspaces/desktops I configured on there.

While antiX can run on as little as 256MB, that low an entry pretty much negates using Signal, which is kind of a modern memory hog. So instead, I set aside 1GB for that VM, which allows Signal Desktop to continue to run. Here’s an overview of that build, from its desktop:

1707181776232.png


Tests so far suggest audio is choppy. This could be due to a number of factors: system buffering, network continuity, and even processor demands. I haven’t bothered with video yet.

More long term: on this Mac, I think I’ll end up using dosdude1’s patcher for a bump to Mojave 10.14.6 and the Mojave version of VMware Fusion, to install a VM with Catalina, but keeping the antiX VM around. My guess is Catalina will be waaaaay more demanding on CPU and memory than antiX ever will, and I don’t really have a use for Catalina where Mojave can do so much more.
 
While antiX can run on as little as 256MB, that low an entry pretty much negates using Signal, which is kind of a modern memory hog.
That's a lament on its own! Using Element as an example again, the latest version uses 513 MB of disk space and is currently using 265 MB of RAM. For a chat app.
 
That's a lament on its own! Using Element as an example again, the latest version uses 513 MB of disk space and is currently using 265 MB of RAM. For a chat app.

It’s a shame there hasn’t been a wider adoption of developing SDKs in the spirit of optimization, of striving to do more with hard, finite constraints along the lines of developers of yore wasting no memory address space on unneeded code and avoiding bloat, yet managing to deliver remarkable utility with a small footprint on both RAM and application size.

Then again, I understand why that won’t come to pass: there’s an irrational belief that growth is infinite, even in silicon-based tech capacities and performance — where, if there are problems, it’s deemed as not the (bloated) code’s fault, but the fault of the end user’s lack of RAM.

It’s a lazy rationale, but a rationale the industry have widely accepted for at least two decades and counting.
 
I never thought I'd end up envying Microsoft Windows users in this regard. 98SE was supported right into 2006!
2000 was supported into 2010. (A specialised variant of) XP was supported until April 2019.

I went with antiX (“antics”)
…or antiques. ;) (Don’t get me wrong, antiX is good stuff.)

While antiX can run on as little as 256MB, that low an entry pretty much negates using Signal, which is kind of a modern memory hog.
How much RAM does the Signal client gobble up?
 
2000 was supported into 2010. (A specialised variant of) XP was supported until April 2019.


…or antiques. ;) (Don’t get me wrong, antiX is good stuff.)


How much RAM does the Signal client gobble up?

Going on what I remember the first time I set up the antiX VM, both before and after installing Signal, about 40–45 per cent of the total RAM used on there is just Signal alone. It was memorable only because I initially set up that VM with 512MB RAM and found the first launch of Signal slowing everything down to a lot of virtual memory swapping and slow screen element re-drawing. Once I doubled it to 1GB, this problem more or less went away.

EDIT to add:

OK, I opened antiX on VMware Fusion to see the difference between just running the desktop environment (left) with two workspaces, and the DE plus Signal (right):

1707343772826.png
1707343874857.png


When I set up this VM, I probably should have allocated 1024MB for swap, but didn’t.

In any case, Signal consumes around 260MB, putting its impact on total RAM in use at around 48 per cent. There’s still, relatively speaking, plenty of RAM headroom to spare.
 
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Just as an extra note: The desktop version of WhatsApp has stopped working since the last one or two weeks on my Mojave Mac mini. When I tried to install the newest .dmg of it, it said something like "you need macOS Big Sur" but I have no plans to weed out Mojave anytime soon so I happily dropped the Whatsapp.
 
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Just as an extra note: The desktop version of WhatsApp has stopped working since the last one or two weeks on my Mojave Mac mini. When I tried to install the newest .dmg of it, it said something like "you need macOS Big Sur" but I have no plans to weed out Mojave anytime soon so I happily dropped the Whatsapp.

The security update High Sierra and Mojave didn’t receive appears to be the same behind why both, along with Firefox ESR later this year, are being dropped for High Sierra and Mojave.

Which puts this, squarely, on how Apple, in their self-imposed, three-OS-support regime, renders computers stuck at High Sierra or Mojave (i.e., the 2010 Mac Pro) into a quicker likelihood of being shoved into waste streams by consumers who don’t have the know-how or desire to use workarounds like dosdude1’s patches or OCLP.

I am not amused with Apple’s active contribution to waste streams and to accelerated consumption (both in the materials they consume to generate new product and the hype they put into getting consumers to drop-and-consume that product). “Recycling” raw materials from “recycled” Macs still consumes voluminous sums of energy to sort and reclaim, much less form into new product.



Incidentally, today locally, late wintertime, we are stomping the living daylights out of the local previous high-temperature record, held for a century, during a winter whose averages have made this the warmest, locally, on record (both human, dendrochronological, and glaciochronological) — and by a country mile.

It is, presently, +1617°C (6162°F[reedom]), on a day whose average high is -2°C, and whose century-old record was +11°C (51°F[reedom]).

1707508871946.png


Whereas one locally should expect to see about 15–30cm of mostly older snow everywhere, I am wearing thin long sleeves and even pulled them up to my elbows on a walk earlier. I didn’t even need a cardigan, hoodie, or jacket.

We do this to ourselves and to every living species on this planet at our own dang peril. I accept my own part of past and remedial present culpability, doing what I can, each day, to mitigate what I’m able. AAPL stock is up by almost one percent today. And I digress.

👩‍🦳👋🗣🌥
 

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The security update High Sierra and Mojave didn’t receive appears to be the same behind why both, along with Firefox ESR later this year, are being dropped for High Sierra and Mojave.

Which puts this, squarely, on how Apple, in their self-imposed, three-OS-support regime, renders computers stuck at High Sierra or Mojave (i.e., the 2010 Mac Pro) into a quicker likelihood of being shoved into waste streams by consumers who don’t have the know-how or desire to use workarounds like dosdude1’s patches or OCLP.

I am not amused with Apple’s active contribution to waste streams and to accelerated consumption (both in the materials they consume to generate new product and the hype they put into getting consumers to drop-and-consume that product). “Recycling” raw materials from “recycled” Macs still consumes voluminous sums of energy to sort and reclaim, much less form into new product.



Incidentally, today locally, late wintertime, we are stomping the living daylights out of the local previous high-temperature record, held for a century, during a winter whose averages have made this the warmest, locally, on record (both human, dendrochronological, and glaciochronological) — and by a country mile.

It is, presently, +1617°C (6162°F[reedom]), on a day whose average high is -2°C, and whose century-old record was +11°C (51°F[reedom]).

View attachment 2347798

Whereas one locally should expect to see about 15–30cm of mostly older snow everywhere, I am wearing thin long sleeves and even pulled them up to my elbows on a walk earlier. I didn’t even need a cardigan, hoodie, or jacket.

We do this to ourselves and to every living species on this planet at our own dang peril. I accept my own part of past and remedial present culpability, doing what I can, each day, to mitigate what I’m able. AAPL stock is up by almost one percent today. And I digress.

👩‍🦳👋🗣🌥
Whatsapp/WA was already a problematic app. Any app which requires updates whether necessary or not every 3 months or so is problematic. The desktop version of WA wasn't a real application. It was more like a helper app tied to the phone app which needed a code from the phone app to function. I use the phrase "phone app" rather than the "mobile app" because I find the phrase of "mobile app" misleading. My MacBook is mobile too. I can't think of traveling anywhere in the world without my MacBook. It is mobile.

So, onwards: The phone app was the master the desktop app was the slave. You could activate the desktop app only if you installed the phone app but not the other way around. I was already foreseeing that based on this fact alone, that the desktop WA would stop functioning someday and that foresight came true today. That limitation is not by technology, rather by design or by business plan you could say. I do have other messenger apps both on my MacBook and on Android phone, one of them is called qTox (Antox on the phone) and they ve been functioning for years without requiring any update at all.

As for the unusually high temperatures these days. For the last 5-6 days the daily temperatures here in Turkey / Anatolia is suprisingly high too. It's almost as if someone has tampered with the climate settings on some regions.
 
Whatsapp/WA was already a problematic app. Any app which requires updates whether necessary or not every 3 months or so is problematic. The desktop version of WA wasn't a real application. It was more like a helper app tied to the phone app which needed a code from the phone app to function.

Signal also has a similar structure in this regard. It cannot be used without the presence of the app on your phone.

I do have other messenger apps both on my MacBook and on Android phone, one of them is called qTox (Antox on the phone) and they ve been functioning for years without requiring any update at all.

In the past I used Tox for a while and switched to Jabber/Adium and continues to work happily on High Sierra without any updates in years.
 
It's almost as if someone has tampered with the climate settings on some regions.

Yah. That would be all generations of humanity, combined, who have lived during industrialization within any nation-state to have led the way with industrialization over, idk, the past 175 years.

[This precisely-phrased qualification exempts extant, pre-industrial societies (i.e., deep in the Amazon rainforest, North Sentinel Island, etc.), which are just as vulnerable to catastrophic extinction as are the many non-human species upon which those societies rely for subsistence.]
 
Update: Signal on High Sierra and Mojave ceased to work a short while ago, exactly a month earlier than stated in their warning.

What I prepared about a month ago, to maintain a desktop client mirror, was to use VMware Fusion to create a VM to install the lightest build of Linux I could find. I went with antiX (“antics”), set it up with zzz-iceWM for a desktop environment, and added Signal to one of the workspaces/desktops I configured on there.

While antiX can run on as little as 256MB, that low an entry pretty much negates using Signal, which is kind of a modern memory hog. So instead, I set aside 1GB for that VM, which allows Signal Desktop to continue to run. Here’s an overview of that build, from its desktop:

View attachment 2346078

Tests so far suggest audio is choppy. This could be due to a number of factors: system buffering, network continuity, and even processor demands. I haven’t bothered with video yet.

More long term: on this Mac, I think I’ll end up using dosdude1’s patcher for a bump to Mojave 10.14.6 and the Mojave version of VMware Fusion, to install a VM with Catalina, but keeping the antiX VM around. My guess is Catalina will be waaaaay more demanding on CPU and memory than antiX ever will, and I don’t really have a use for Catalina where Mojave can do so much more.

Update:

Still tinkering lightly on antiX here. I moved the VM to run on 1.5GB.

Based on a couple of discussion forums elsewhere, the culprit may lie in VMware’s default audio driver. Unfortunately, as far as I can suss, there are no driver workarounds to the issue.

Also, it appears the choppiness issue with audio, at least with Signal, is tied with system audio input — i.e., the passing of audio from the host system (macOS) to VMware’s guest system (antiX), as simple audio playback of sound effects seems to avoid this choppy stuttering.

As things stand, it’s also clear the system, with Signal running, will stretch out eagerly into >1GB RAM grounds, if given an opportunity:

1707521856339.png
 
The security update High Sierra and Mojave didn’t receive appears to be the same behind why both, along with Firefox ESR later this year, are being dropped for High Sierra and Mojave.

Which puts this, squarely, on how Apple, in their self-imposed, three-OS-support regime, renders computers stuck at High Sierra or Mojave (i.e., the 2010 Mac Pro) into a quicker likelihood of being shoved into waste streams by consumers who don’t have the know-how or desire to use workarounds like dosdude1’s patches or OCLP.

I have to admit, I was really struck by how abrupt this change seemed to be. It almost seemed like in terms of software support, you were fine for years to come if you were running 10.13 or above. But then Google dropped support for anything below 10.15, and since Electron is heavily based off of Chromium, and since so many Internet apps are based on Electron, so much stuff broke, so quickly.

Like, is it just me or was 10.7 supported by developers longer than 10.13 or 10.14?
 
I have to admit, I was really struck by how abrupt this change seemed to be. It almost seemed like in terms of software support, you were fine for years to come if you were running 10.13 or above. But then Google dropped support for anything below 10.15, and since Electron is heavily based off of Chromium, and since so many Internet apps are based on Electron, so much stuff broke, so quickly.

Like, is it just me or was 10.7 supported by developers longer than 10.13 or 10.14?

This is a good point and the abandonment is even more abrupt when you consider that Windows 10 is two years older than High Sierra but it's still supported by Meta and Google continues to support Chrome on Windows 10 and has no immediate plans to halt this arrangement.
 
This is a good point and the abandonment is even more abrupt when you consider that Windows 10 is two years older than High Sierra but it's still supported by Meta and Google continues to support Chrome on Windows 10 and has no immediate plans to halt this arrangement.
Windows 10 got new minor versions until November 2022 though, with the last one receiving updates until October 2025. So it makes sense for developers to continue supporting it.
 
Windows 10 got new minor versions until November 2022 though, with the last one receiving updates until October 2025. So it makes sense for developers to continue supporting it.

Ah, then that casts Apple in an even worse light for failing (refusing) to provide High Sierra and Mojave, for that matter, with similar support to ensure that users with Macs that have reached the end of an (official) upgrade path can enjoy continued viability.

It's not like they don't have the resources to undertake this...
 
I have to admit, I was really struck by how abrupt this change seemed to be. It almost seemed like in terms of software support, you were fine for years to come if you were running 10.13 or above. But then Google dropped support for anything below 10.15, and since Electron is heavily based off of Chromium, and since so many Internet apps are based on Electron, so much stuff broke, so quickly.

Like, is it just me or was 10.7 supported by developers longer than 10.13 or 10.14?

This is, unfortunately, a question I can’t answer from experience.

I stayed with 10.6.8 on everything Intel exclusively until the rMBP I picked up in 2017 (which ran the then-current version of Sierra, later upgraded to High Sierra, briefly to Mojave, and then back down to High Sierra, before the display failed).

Until not long ago, it seemed High Sierra was the new baseline “bedrock” of third-party software support, much as you observed, as it featured many of the elements to carry forward to later macOS builds — APFS being the big one. Of course, APFS and Chromium code base have nothing at all related to one another.

That said, the other big step forward to come with Mojave, Metal, suggested a possibility of being the next baseline of extended support for third-party software developers to maintain for several more years. So to learn even Mojave was dropped wholesale by the Google’s Chromium and Mozilla’s Firefox within months of one another last year came as an especially unwelcome surprise.

It was a line the developers committed between supporting a version of macOS with many of the core functions to carry over later to Catalina and beyond, or abandoning those wholesale for reasons perhaps more closely related to Apple halting security updates for pre-Catalina builds. Maybe there’s a minimum level/version for security in some build library which goes into compiling Chromium and Firefox Quantum (with Electron reliant on the former).

Either way, it’s a disappointment. I think I’m going to pin this one on Apple their opaque security disclosures, and their rigid, one-OS-each-year-and-only-the-last-three-get-support cycle — not on Google, Mozilla, or others, as they are, as @TheShortTimer noted, still supporting an older Windows 10. Apple could do well to take the time needed refine a major build of macOS, which often needs more than a year to get there. The added benefit would yield longer windows of extended support, as with the Serlet/pre-Federighi era.
 
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Ah, then that casts Apple in an even worse light for failing (refusing) to provide High Sierra and Mojave, for that matter, with similar support to ensure that users with Macs that have reached the end of an (official) upgrade path can enjoy continued viability.
Feature updates of Windows 10 are fully supported for only 1.5 to 2 years, with 22H2‘s almost 3 years being an exception. So if you don’t upgrade to the latest version you may end up being in a similar situation.

Both Windows 10 and e.g. Ubuntu provide LTS releases which are fully supported for 5 years. Some RHEL versions (and, presumably, clones) are supported for up to 10 years.
 
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I'm facing the same predicament having received this warning after the latest - and probably final - update to the desktop version of Signal (for my OS version) was installed on my High Sierra daily driver not too long ago.

yZwA26H.png
@TheShortTimer doesnt signal run on electron? i think you can just replace all the electron binaries and resources with the old one that works on your OS, and keep the actual web code of signal and it will function just fine. i doubt it relies heavily on any web features that don't exist in the older version of electron, it's just the silicon valley nonsense of update update update.
 
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@TheShortTimer doesnt signal run on electron? i think you can just replace all the electron binaries and resources with the old one that works on your OS, and keep the actual web code of signal and it will function just fine. i doubt it relies heavily on any web features that don't exist in the older version of electron, it's just the silicon valley nonsense of update update update.

HMmmm interesting! :D

It would have to be prevented from phoning home to obtain updates. What do you reckon @B S Magnet? Are you up for seeing whether this can be pulled off? :)
 
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