iPhone 15 Pro Max A17 Effects on Phone Longevity?

[Sully]

I know Apple is blaming the excessive heat generated by the 15 Pro/ProMax models on software. However, I’ve seen some speculation on tech blogs that the A17 may be generating excessive heat due to lowered specifications that were forced on Apple by TSMC.

Max Tech's Vadim Yuryev and leaker Revegnus seem to know why. Revegnus tweeted back in March that TSMC was struggling with the 3nm process and as a result, Apple lowered its standards for the A17 Pro chip. TSMC apparently had a low yield, meaning the percentage of non-defective chips or the chips that passed all the tests and functioned as intended was low.​

Apple apparently ended up lowering its efficiency standards and accepted chips that otherwise would have been rejected. Yuryev thinks that Apple upped the wattage to achieve the benchmark results it wanted but this increase in power consumption may lead to a lower battery life.

Is this credible? If it is, it would mean that the A17 is not operating as efficiently as Apple intended when the phone was engineered. I would think this would be bad for the long term health of the internal components, making the phone a risky bet for those of us who keep our phones for multiple upgrade cycles.

Are there any hardware engineers out there who can comment on this?

 

[NT1440]

I know Apple is blaming the excessive heat generated by the 15 Pro/ProMax models on software. However, I’ve seen some speculation on tech blogs that the A17 may be generating excessive heat due to lowered specifications that were forced on Apple by TSMC.



Is this credible? If it is, it would mean that the A17 is not operating as efficiently as Apple intended when the phone was engineered. I would think this would be bad for the long term health of the internal components, making the phone a risky bet for those of us who keep our phones for multiple upgrade cycles.

Are there any hardware engineers out three who can comment on this?

Here’s the thing, 100F will not affect the lifetime of silicon at all. This is not a concern in any way, shape, or form.

Also, your quote is conflating manufacturing yields and power draw which are not related at all. This is the effect of a game of analyst telephone where those analysts don’t understand the actual technical processes they’re (somehow) paid to report on.

 

[Sully]

Here’s the thing, 100F will not affect the lifetime of silicon at all. This is not a concern in any way, shape, or form.

Also, your quote is conflating manufacturing yields and power draw which are not related at all. This is the effect of a game of analyst telephone where those analysts don’t understand the actual technical processes they’re (somehow) paid to report on.

Thanks for replying.

I'm more concerned about issues similar to some of the early intel Macs where the heat caused some logic boards and/or GPU's to fail over time. If the A17 pro is generating heat in excess of what the initial engineering of the phone anticipated, could this cause other components in the phone to fail prematurely?

 

[sack_peak]

Apple will recall them. It would destroy the brand if they dont address it. You planning to keep it beyond 2028?

 

[Sully]

Apple will recall them. It would destroy the brand if they dont address it. You planning to keep it beyond 2028?

I'm on an 11 ProMax now. When I traded from the 8 plus to the phone I have now it was because I could see it starting to fail and I wanted to trade it in before the phone bricked. The 11 ProMax I have now works fine. It's just that the trade in value next year will be basically "scrap value." And, there's a decent upgrade across the entire phone to make it an OK upgrade. But, I do keep these phones for a long time. I want the ProMax because of the A17 but I also don't want it because of the A17.

 

[matthewadams]

Thanks for replying.

I'm more concerned about issues similar to some of the early intel Macs where the heat caused some logic boards and/or GPU's to fail over time. If the A17 pro is generating heat in excess of what the initial engineering of the phone anticipated, could this cause other components in the phone to fail prematurely?

I wouldn't for two reasons:
The temperatures on an actively cooled laptop were around 100C, that's unlikely to happen on a passively cooled phone (throttling will kick in at a lower temperature, just like the desktop/laptops were throttling at 100C).
The GPU became loose due to faulty material in the solder balls (cant remember the right terminology) as far as I remember, and this was fixed in subsequent GPU packages.

 

[sack_peak]

I'm on an 11 ProMax now. When I traded from the 8 plus to the phone I have now it was because I could see it starting to fail and I wanted to trade it in before the phone bricked. The 11 ProMax I have now works fine. It's just that the trade in value next year will be basically "scrap value." And, there's a decent upgrade across the entire phone to make it an OK upgrade. But, I do keep these phones for a long time. I want the ProMax because of the A17 but I also don't want it because of the A17.

I see your point.

Source: https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-2-year-mobile-phone-upgrade-cycle-is-mostly-dead

 

[krspkbl]

I'm no hardware engineer and won't pretend I know anything about how processors are made but I am a little familiar with chip binning and silicon quality from years of buying CPU/GPUs and overclocking them to squeeze out all the performance.

It's true that Apple probably had to lower their standards if the 3nm process was having issues. In my non expert opinion, this would just mean that the processor needs more voltage. I don't know what kind of voltages the A17 Pro runs at but say it needs 1.2V to hit 3.8GHz then maybe a higher quality more efficient chip would only need 1.1V to hit the same frequency. Yes, higher voltage means more heat and higher power draw (and quicker degradation) but I'd like to think that Apple are still operating within safe voltages.

The CPU i have in my PC had some power/voltage issues that were causing CPUs to burn out (if you're interested search "ryzen 7000 burn out") but it has been addressed with updates while also maintaing same performance. Generally my CPU is safe to run at up to 1.3V but early on some CPUs were running at up to 1.4V or even 1.5V. Without getting too much into it, processors have various voltages. clock voltages, soc voltages, memory voltages. If it was a voltage issue with the A17 then we don't know what kind of voltage it was.

The point I'm trying to get to here is that say the A17 Pro is safe to operate at <1.3V then if it's running at 1.2V then it's probably going to be OK in the long term. Would it be better if it was at 1.1V? Yeah but as long as it's not pushing "insane" voltages like 1.4V or higher then it's likely not anything to worry about. If Apple, even after 17.0.3, are running at high voltages then it could potentially cause issues in the coming months but if it becomes a widespread issue then they'll have to do something about it by either releasing more patches or maybe even going as far as offering a repair/replacement program but I think we should maybe wait and see if it even comes to that.

 

[MacCheetah3]

Thanks for replying.

I'm more concerned about issues similar to some of the early intel Macs where the heat caused some logic boards and/or GPU's to fail over time. If the A17 pro is generating heat in excess of what the initial engineering of the phone anticipated, could this cause other components in the phone to fail prematurely?

The GPU became loose due to faulty material in the solder balls (cant remember the right terminology) as far as I remember, and this was fixed in subsequent CPU packages.

Most GPU, CPU ‘failure’ problems were indeed due to low quality “balling” or other soldering. Sometimes, the problem was increased by the internal design — a flaw? — allowing the PCB to flex significantly during hot and cold cycles.

P.S. Such problems affected “PC” laptops and gaming consoles as well.

 

[krspkbl]

Most GPU, CPU ‘failure’ problems were indeed due to low quality “balling” or other soldering. Sometimes, the problem was increased by the internal design — a flaw? — allowing the PCB to flex significantly during hot and cold cycles.

P.S. Such problems affected “PC” laptops and gaming consoles as well.

pretty sure this was the issue with the PS3. i remember taking a heatgun to it to try melt the solder around the processor

it could be another explaination for high temps but the YLOD on PS3 didn't happen in the space of 2 weeks since it launched. it took 5 years for the issue to appear for me. it's really too early to judge the longevity of the iPhone 15 series.

 

[NT1440]

Thanks for replying.

I'm more concerned about issues similar to some of the early intel Macs where the heat caused some logic boards and/or GPU's to fail over time. If the A17 pro is generating heat in excess of what the initial engineering of the phone anticipated, could this cause other components in the phone to fail prematurely?

No, the “excess heat” is nearly 100 degrees lower than can even come close to damaging silicon.

 

[btrach144]

Server CPUs run warm 24/7/365 for many years. I’ve seen many go a decade.

Running your iPhone without 17.0.3 for 2.5 weeks is just fine.

The chip is still more efficient and faster than the A16 it replaced.

 

[Sully]

No, the “excess heat” is nearly 100 degrees lower than can even come close to damaging silicon.

I’m concerned about the other components of the phone (computer) being damaged by constant excess heat generated by the CPU since it’s possible that the overall design didn’t contemplate the lowered standards for the A17 Pro chip that Apple was forced to accept after the phone had been engineered.

In short, Apple designed the phone then specified each component based on TSMC’s standards. After the fact, TSMC forced a lower standard than the original spec that the phone had been designed for. Hence, a risk of early heat failure of other non silicon components.

I’m not an engineer so my question may be naive. But, I have been the owner of defective Apple Products. (Apple always took care of me but these failures are inconvenient and stressful.)

 

[NT1440]

I’m concerned about the other components of the phone (computer) being damaged by constant excess heat generated by the CPU since it’s possible that the overall design didn’t contemplate the lowered standards for the A17 Pro chip that Apple was forced to accept after the phone had been engineered.

In short, Apple designed the phone then specified each component based on TSMC’s standards. After the fact, TSMC forced a lower standard than the original spec that the phone had been designed for. Hence, a risk of early heat failure of other non silicon components.

I’m not an engineer so my question may be naive. But, I have been the owner of defective Apple Products. (Apple always took care of me but these failures are inconvenient and stressful.)

I’m telling you, a cumulative few hours of low 100F temperatures is nothing to remotely worry about. A phone left in a car that’s in the sun gets hotter.

These temperatures, while uncomfortable to humans, are not remotely close to anything that can cause damage to components.

You also need to discard the completely empty reporting of “lowered standards” in this context because that could mean literally anything, and given the report on it didn’t bother to expand it’s literally meaningless.

 

[klasma]

Is this credible? If it is, it would mean that the A17 is not operating as efficiently as Apple intended when the phone was engineered. I would think this would be bad for the long term health of the internal components, making the phone a risky bet for those of us who keep our phones for multiple upgrade cycles.

I think this part is credible:

this increase in power consumption may lead to a lower battery life

As others have noted, other internal components should be fine, but any increase in temperature is likely to affect battery life in the long run. It might also affect aging of the OLED display to some degree, but I would still assume that the iPhone 15 Pro will be obsolete before that becomes relevant.

 

[NT1440]

I think this part is credible:

As others have noted, other internal components should be fine, but any increase in temperature is likely to affect battery life in the long run. It might also affect aging of the OLED display to some degree, but I would still assume that the iPhone 15 Pro will be obsolete before that becomes relevant.

Come on. The highest reported temperature I saw was 118F. That’s peak temp, not a long term constant running temp.

Battery degradation is a non factor here. OLED, even more laughable.

 

[klasma]

Come on. The highest reported temperature I saw was 118F. That’s peak temp, not a long term constant running temp.

Battery degradation is a non factor here. OLED, even more laughable.

Every temperature increase above normal room temperature affects battery life. I’m not saying dramatically, but not zero either.

 

[NT1440]

Every temperature increase above normal room temperature affects battery life. I’m not saying dramatically, but not zero either.

Sure, technically, but let’s not entertain that any real problem has happened here. 3 weeks of occasional ~100F temp peaks is not going to impact the overall usability or lifespan of this iPhone.

I realize this is the internet, but we can do better than let this “concern” continue to propagate on this forum. Battery degradation is already a pet peeve of mine here as there’s always a “battery dropped X% in Y months” thread full of willful, half, and complete misunderstandings of what is to be expected out of a lithium polymer battery.

 

[MacCheetah3]

I’m concerned about the other components of the phone (computer) being damaged by constant excess heat generated by the CPU since it’s possible that the overall design didn’t contemplate the lowered standards for the A17 Pro chip that Apple was forced to accept after the phone had been engineered.

In short, Apple designed the phone then specified each component based on TSMC’s standards. After the fact, TSMC forced a lower standard than the original spec that the phone had been designed for. Hence, a risk of early heat failure of other non silicon components.

I’m not an engineer so my question may be naive. But, I have been the owner of defective Apple Products. (Apple always took care of me but these failures are inconvenient and stressful.)

I’m telling you, a cumulative few hours of low 100F temperatures is nothing to remotely worry about. A phone left in a car that’s in the sun gets hotter.

These temperatures, while uncomfortable to humans, are not remotely close to anything that can cause damage to components.

You also need to discard the completely empty reporting of “lowered standards” in this context because that could mean literally anything, and given the report on it didn’t bother to expand it’s literally meaningless.

Yes.

As for other components… The cooling system is designed with a max thermal expectation/limit in mind. And, even when some CPU samples are lesser quality (a.k.a. losing the “silicon lottery”), the max allowed thermals are the same. Furthermore, typically, a lower “binned” processor will just not (easily/over) exceed advertised spec. And Apple’s standards may normally be well above the industry — we don’t know — and lowering them would/could simply bring quality closer to the average.

Regarding quality in relation to user comfort, Apple has long resisted aggressive active cooling (i.e., only ramps fans passed 50% or so speed until components are very near TJ max — not to be confused with the department store). A few examples from the board: CPU at 212*F? , M1 Pro and M1 Max CPU Temperature Forewarning , Uhh... screaming hot M1 temps? (120+ on cores?). And, well, AMD has (in their own way) followed, tearing away at the traditional PC enthusiast mindset — a fight some still engage despite the facts/proof.

 

[klasma]

Sure, technically, but let’s not entertain that any real problem has happened here. 3 weeks of occasional ~100F temp peaks is not going to impact the overall usability or lifespan of this iPhone.

Three weeks, sure, but if the A17 runs generally warmer, it will have some effect. Just like living in a warmer region has some effect. Some users have reported that 17.0.3 has changed nothing on their iPhone running hot, so I don’t know what’s the story there. I’m also not interested in characterizing this as a problem or concern, just saying that if the A17 runs generally warmer, there will be a nonzero effect on battery life.

 

[GuyDouche]

37-38*C Will definitely affect the already on-par battery health and life outlook.

 

[lenningj]

Didn't Apple buy up all of TSMC's capacity for the 3nm node orders this year? I can see how this may give weight to the idea of issues arising and ironing out as much before production went full scale.

 

[Kierkegaarden]

Some clown on YouTube claims that Apple lowered their standards on the A17 chip used in their best selling product? What is the credible source? There is none. These click whores have no standards. But this isn’t just limited to YouTube — Kuo did the same thing, claiming that Apple would have to lower the performance of the A17 to fix the heat “issue” — this was a total lie. These fools count on other fools to listen to them and amplify their disinformation.

 

[NT1440]

Three weeks, sure, but if the A17 runs generally warmer, it will have some effect. Just like living in a warmer region has some effect. Some users have reported that 17.0.3 has changed nothing on their iPhone running hot, so I don’t know what’s the story there. I’m also not interested in characterizing this as a problem or concern, just saying that if the A17 runs generally warmer, there will be a nonzero effect on battery life.

The iPhone has a thermal shutdown procedure (“This phone needs to cool down”) that is triggered before the temperature tolerances the battery chemistry can handle are exceeded. That’s what that warning feature and safety mechanism are there for.

There is literally no long term impact that is outside the normal battery lifecycle that can be triggered by this now fixed issue. It’s still going to fall under the normal rating of 1000 cycles (500? I get the Mac and iPhone mixed up sometimes) retaining 80% capacity.

This is a complete nonissue. It’s time to put it to bed instead of having academic discussions that fall well outside of the actual components, chemistry, and temperatures involved here.

 

[leman]

I know Apple is blaming the excessive heat generated by the 15 Pro/ProMax models on software.

They are blaming the overheating issues some users have experienced on software. Not the same thing.

However, I’ve seen some speculation on tech blogs that the A17 may be generating excessive heat due to lowered specifications that were forced on Apple by TSMC.

Is this credible? If it is, it would mean that the A17 is not operating as efficiently as Apple intended when the phone was engineered. I would think this would be bad for the long term health of the internal components, making the phone a risky bet for those of us who keep our phones for multiple upgrade cycles.

Are there any hardware engineers out there who can comment on this?

I have spend a considerable amount of time testing the power consumption and operating frequency of A17 (see this thread for more details: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/power-curve-and-efficiency-of-apple-n3.2404894/)

I think it has been established beyond reasonable doubt that A17 Pro is using more power than previous A-series chips. However, I do not believe that this is a case of lowered specifications. What I have observed in my tests is exactly inline to what TSMC has promised. We see 15-20% better performance at the same power draw and 25% lower power draw at the same performance vs TSMC 5nm. My personal speculation that A17 Pro is developed to enable higher performance on desktop Macs, which is why the power consumption of the part is slightly higher. If I am correct, we should see higher frequency and power limits on the upcoming Macs.

At any rate, the slightly higher power consumption of the CPU should not affect the longevity of the phone in any way, and the newer reviews show that the battery life stays the same or is improved over the previous generations (one exception is running heavy computational load where the new iPhone has slightly shorter battery life, but it's hardly a common use case for a phone).