Adobe and DxO have found bugs in Neural Engine

[gradi]

Adobe and DxO have found bugs in the Neural Engine so are unable to use it. DxO PhotoLab up through Monterey could use it, but they found a bug over 6 months ago in Ventura so they warn people to use the much slower GPU. Adobe has also found a bug (unknown if it is the same as the one DxO found or another one) so they have disabled the code in Lightroom that uses the Neural Engine for all versions of MacOS. Both Adobe and DxO say they have been waiting for Apple to fix the problems. There have been 6 Ventura updates since DxO found the problem, but none of those updates included a fix from Apple.

Adobe info concerning the Neural Engine problem(s):

Eric Chan, one of the longtime senior Adobe software engineers, wrote this article about Denoise AI:

Denoise demystified

https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2023/04/18/denoise-demystified

Finally, we built our machine learning models to take full advantage of the latest platform technologies, including NVIDIA’s TensorCores and the Apple Neural Engine. Using these technologies enables our models to run faster on modern hardware.

But, then Ian Lyon wrote:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-discussions/denoise-ai-in-12-3/m-p/13739400

Currently, the Apple Neural Engine found in M1/M2 silicon Macs is not used by Denoise. It's expected that performance will be even better when Denoise does use the Apple Neural Engine.

There is no change to above comments regarding the use of Tensor cores in NVidia cards. That is, Tensor cores are used by Denoise.

Apparently, an issue on Apple side means that the Neural Engine is not used by Adobe Denoise. When the issue is addressed, then Adobe Denoise is ready to take advantage of the Neural Engine.

And then Rikk Flohr confirmed it:

Ian Lyons information is correct regarding the Neural Engine on Apple devices

Rikk Flohr - Customer Advocacy: Adobe Photography Products

Here is what DxO tells their users (see red notice at bottom):

PC/Nvidia//Windows users do get the full performance from Lightroom/Photoshop and DxO PhotoLab. Unfortunately, us Mac users get much lower performance because the Neural Engine cannot be used anymore. Apple Silicon DxO users report that using the Neural Engine is at least 4 times faster than using the GPU. DxO DeepPrime XD and Lightroom Denoise AI need lots of computing power so not being able to use the very fast Neural Engine is a big disadvantage for Mac users.

 

[dmccloud]

I would STRONGLY recommend changing the title of your post to something more accurate and less clickbait in nature. Based on what you did share, it sounds like the bug is not with the Neural Engine, but with Ventura. There are two main reasons why this is the more likely scenario. First and foremost, these issues did not occur with Monterey or prior versions of the OS, so that tends to rule out any sort of bug within the Neural Engine itself. Second, since the Neural Engine is part of the SoC, software and OS updates can not rewrite its internal code, only how the OS and/or application utilizes the Neural Engine. When you look at both of these factors together, the only logical conclusion would be that Ventura changed something related to how the OS accesses and/or utilizes the Neural Engine. The fact that DxO is working with Apple on resolving this issue also points to it being an OS problem, as I can't see Apple ever allowing a third party to see the underlying bytecode of its SoCs...

 

[gradi]

Ventura 13.4 was released a couple of days ago. I can find no mention of any Neural Engine bugs fixed though. If this problem has not been fixed then this is the 7th Ventura update without a fix. If Apple has fixed it then, I suppose, we will need to wait for LrC 12.4 for Adobe to enable the Neural Engine code.

Apple releases macOS Ventura 13.4 with new sports-related features

https://9to5mac.com/2023/05/18/macos-ventura-13-4-now-available/

 

[lcubed]

in the latest version of the DXO's release notes:

Bug fixes​

• Temporary solution for Magenta color cast on Apple Ventura while using DeepPrime and DeepPrime XD.
• Temporary solution for chessboard patterns on Apple Monterey & Ventura for Xtrans with DeepPrime XD processing.
  • Those temporary solutions will be updated when Apple will deliver its own fix for macOS.

 

[gradi]

in the latest version of the DXO's release notes:

Bug fixes​

• Temporary solution for Magenta color cast on Apple Ventura while using DeepPrime and DeepPrime XD.
• Temporary solution for chessboard patterns on Apple Monterey & Ventura for Xtrans with DeepPrime XD processing.
  • Those temporary solutions will be updated when Apple will deliver its own fix for macOS.

Do you have a link that has that info? Thank you.

 

[lcubed]

https://download-center.dxo.com/Support/docs/PhotoLab_v6/release-notes/PL6_release-note_mac_EN.pdf

 

[gradi]

Thank you for the link!

It seems likely that Ventura 13.4 did not fix the Neural Engine problem that DxO has been waiting for. Here is the update info for DxO PhotoLab 6.6 (I found somewhere that 6.6.1 was released on 2023/5/20 -- Ventura 13.4 was released on 2023/5/18):

Note what DxO wrote down at the bottom in the Bug fixes section where there are 2 bugs mentioned.

If Apple had fixed the NE problem in 13.4 then older versions of DxO should again start working properly like they do with Monterey and earlier, but apparently they do not. It sounds like DxO has implemented some sort of kludge that allows use of the fast NE on Ventura, but somehow fixes or mitigates the color problem -- but only if you use 6.6 though. For example, maybe after the NE does its work DxO then corrects the color problem and it only does this when running on Ventura. Not good. It sounds like pre-6.6 versions running on Ventura will still have the problem, but they are okay on Monterey and earlier versions.

And we know nothing yet about the problems Adobe has with the Neural Engine. Maybe the same as DxO or maybe different problems.

 

[lcubed]

6.6.1 isn't showing up as available yet.

i have serious doubts that DXO has had time to test and verify whether apple's latest for any ANE fixes
requires removing the temp fixes yet

 

[gradi]

I had to search around again for the mention of 6.6.1. I found it:

DxO PhotoLab 6.10.0 Build 284 | CyberMania

Your computer's trusted mate

www.cybermania.ws

I do not know whether this is for real or not. Maybe it is a beta version?

 

[gradi]

i have serious doubts that DXO has had time to test and verify whether apple's latest for any ANE fixes
requires removing the temp fixes yet

I suppose that DxO (and Adobe) get the various MacOS beta releases so they have access to what's coming before the final, actual release. I think many people on these forums also install beta versions to see what is coming.

 

[lcubed]

from past history, DXO may get the beta releases (which are not guaranteed in any way to propagate all changes to the non-beta release). they still have to test the actual final release version to make sure the actual fixes got included.

 

[gradi]

Yes, that is standard procedure for all software developers.

 

[dmccloud]

There was an update for pro video formats that showed up on my Mac tonight. I don't use either DxO or Adobe anymore, but could this be a fix for these issues?

 

[chrfr]

There was an update for pro video formats that showed up on my Mac tonight. I don't use either DxO or Adobe anymore, but could this be a fix for these issues?

No, that update has no connection at all.

 

[brandonphoto]

Just updated to Camera Raw 16.3 and can confrim using Denoise AI is now TWICE as fast! It took my machine 4 minutes to process 10 images (24mp Canon R3 files) using the previous version. CR 16.3 only took 2 minutes. Thats a huge improvement! Incase anyone cares, im running a 16in Macbook Pro, M1 Pro with 32GB of ram. Sonoma 14.4.1.

 

[gradi]

Just updated to Camera Raw 16.3 and can confrim using Denoise AI is now TWICE as fast! It took my machine 4 minutes to process 10 images (24mp Canon R3 files) using the previous version. CR 16.3 only took 2 minutes. Thats a huge improvement! Incase anyone cares, im running a 16in Macbook Pro, M1 Pro with 32GB of ram. Sonoma 14.4.1.

That is good news. LrC can finally use the Neural Engine for Denoise. You are using Sonoma 14.4.1, so I suppose Apple finally fixed the problem not long ago and Adobe is now able to make use of the Neural Engine. I guess the latest Sonoma 14.5 from last week is not necessary. I have Ventura 13.6.7 on my M2 Pro MBP. I wonder if LrC 13.3 will be able to use the Neural Engine on that too? I have not yet installed 13.3.

 

[Adult80HD]

That is good news. LrC can finally use the Neural Engine for Denoise. You are using Sonoma 14.4.1, so I suppose Apple finally fixed the problem not long ago and Adobe is now able to make use of the Neural Engine. I guess the latest Sonoma 14.5 from last week is not necessary. I have Ventura 13.6.7 on my M2 Pro MBP. I wonder if LrC 13.3 will be able to use the Neural Engine on that too? I have not yet installed 13.3.

No, it will not work. It requires MacOS 14.x. If you have a lower-end M-series chip, not a Max or Ultra, the gains can be very significant. On the Max and Ultra versions it's less, although the M1-series chips show bigger gains than the M2 Ultra and M3 Max I've tested.