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learjet

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Original poster
Dec 21, 2021
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Hi,

I’m currently using Time Machine to create regular backups of my Mac. As far as I know (and hope), Time Machine allows me to perform a full system restore, including all apps and settings.

However, I’m curious: What are the actual advantages of third-party backup tools like Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper, beyond their ability to create directly bootable backups? Are there certain types of content that Time Machine doesn’t cover but these tools can back up? Am I taking a risk by relying solely on an internal backup system like Time Machine?

Thanks,
Learjet
 
However, I’m curious: What are the actual advantages of third-party backup tools like Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper, beyond their ability to create directly bootable backups? Are there certain types of content that Time Machine doesn’t cover but these tools can back up? Am I taking a risk by relying solely on an internal backup system like Time Machine?

If I recall correctly, Time Machine will backup everything except for the actual OS files which never get modified.

I use both Time Machine and Super Duper. Most of the time I prefer Time Machine, but I also keep a Super Duper copy around just for good measure, but there are two situations when I prefer Super Duper.

1) When I need to migrate to a new computer. I find the process of setting up a new Mac from a direct copy easier than doing it from Time Machine. In Time Machine, I exclude large programs like XCode and Final Cut Pro. They're large and change regularly. If I suddenly have a 40GB backup job, that might cause a temporary stoppage in my normal backup cycle.

Then to do a full restore from Time Machine, I'd have to undo my entire exclude list so restoring my machine from Super Duper is my preference. Also, I just generally find the process of a full restore from Time Machine to be more confusing. I've accidentally done it wrong before and ended up with parallel main user directories.

2) I also prefer Super Duper when there's a massive amount of changes and Time Machine hasn't run in a while. It takes forever if you have a lot of changes. Cloning a drive with Super Duper isn't fast either (and actually slower in many cases), but it's more predictable. Refreshing my 2TB backup with Super Duper is always going to take somewhere between 40 minutes and 2 hours. Time Machine's range is 5 minutes to many hours.
 
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@smirking how have you managed SD bootable clones….?
Every time I have tried it (Ventura/Sonoma) it shows as the same disk size as original and as a startup disk.
But when restarted it says MacOS needs re-installing on the external drive.

I just use the typical clone options, do you need to do it differently?
 
TM is fine for backups. Risk is low and goes towards nill if you use at least 2 drives for it with one recently backed-up drive stored offsite (regularly swapping with the other onsite to keep the offsite one fresh). Why 2? Very real fire-flood-theft scenarios generally take out both the Mac and the TM drive sitting right next to it. The pretty fresh one offsite will likely survive such scenarios.

CCC and SD have passionate fans who will argue FOR them and against TM. Both are fine backup apps too. If you have at least one more drive lying around, use either for one more backup: 3 backups are better than 2… 4 are better than 3, etc. If you have retired drives that still work, put them back into 3rd+ backup use. If they are just lying around doing nothing, this is a very good last resort “something” that might serve you.

Apple doesn’t help TM confidence by straying away from their old “just works” philosophy. That undermines confidence in macOS. So it’s easy to imagine concern into all Mac apps including TM. I’ve been using it for over a decade with no issues. But if you feel any fear, add one more disc and another type of backup. It can’t hurt to have “too many” fresh backups. CCC and SD have much greater focus on their apps than Apple on just one more “freebie” among many in macOS.
 
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I don't use SuperDuper, so it may be different. I've been happily using Carbon Copy for many years. They don't really support bootable clones any more, but it's complicated (see below). Nevertheless, I have Carbon Copy clones of my internal and all my external disks. Also have a network drive setup as a Time Machine destination and BackBlaze for cloud backups.

I want multiple backups created with different software for my own data. So, for me, it's not a question of one vs. another; each backup method has its own advantages.

________

"As of the Sequoia 15.2 update, it is no longer possible to create legacy bootable copies of macOS on Apple Silicon Macs."
________

"In the past, a "bootable backup" was an indispensable troubleshooting device that even novice users could rely upon in case their production startup disk failed. Unfortunately, however, the creation of bootable backups is fundamentally incompatible with platform security. Further, Apple Silicon Macs will not start up (at all) if the internal storage is damaged or otherwise incapacitated, so there is very little value, if any, to maintaining a bootable rescue device for those Macs."
 
One advantage of CCC or SD...

If you take the cloned backup and plug it into the Mac, it will "appear" on the desktop, exactly the same as would any other external drive. Your files, apps, etc, will be "right where they normally are" on your internal drive.

So... if you need one file, or more than one, or a folder, you can just "look where they're supposed to be", locate it, and "copy it right over" to the internal drive.

CCC (not SD, as far as I know) has a "safety net" feature, also.
It will KEEP "older versions" of [changed] files in a separate folder "apart from" the cloned backup file structure.

The idea is something akin to the tm concept of "preserving earlier versions" of changed files.

I don't use the safety net myself.
But it IS there for others to use.
 
Hi,

I’m currently using Time Machine to create regular backups of my Mac. As far as I know (and hope), Time Machine allows me to perform a full system restore, including all apps and settings.

However, I’m curious: What are the actual advantages of third-party backup tools like Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper, beyond their ability to create directly bootable backups? Are there certain types of content that Time Machine doesn’t cover but these tools can back up? Am I taking a risk by relying solely on an internal backup system like Time Machine?

Thanks,
Learjet
One of the primary reasons I use and have used Carbon Copy Cloner is for its ability to make backups to sparse disk images instead of sparsebundles. Sparsebundles, such as what Time Machine creates are actually folders. These have permissions, the files inside have permissions and it all combines to make it extremely difficult to move a sparesebundle from one drive to another. And once you move a TM sparesbundle, TM likes to whine about it and force a full backup to the new location.

Time Machine really prefers that you pick one location and stick with it. I prefer the flexibility of being able to move disk images around as I need to.

Since sparse drive images are a self-contained disk image (one file) it's easy to move them. This comes in handy when I want to move a disk image I want to restore from off a network or physical drive to a location where I will do the actual restore.

CCC also allows for different backup jobs. I have a DAILY backup that goes to my NAS and a WEEKLY backup that goes to the Dropbox folder on a physical drive. That gives me a local backup and an offsite backup.

Time Machine is great if you're willing to deal with all it's restrictions and guidelines. I'm not willing to do that.
 
@smirking how have you managed SD bootable clones….?
Every time I have tried it (Ventura/Sonoma) it shows as the same disk size as original and as a startup disk.
But when restarted it says MacOS needs re-installing on the external drive.

I'm afraid I can't help you here. I haven't booted from an external clone in ages. I actually don't even know how to do that. I tried the other week and realized that you can't just plug it in and choose a new startup disk like you could in the past and I didn't have the the time to figure out the new process.
 
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What are the actual advantages of third-party backup tools like Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper, beyond their ability to create directly bootable backups? Are there certain types of content that Time Machine doesn’t cover but these tools can back up? Am I taking a risk by relying solely on an internal backup system like Time Machine?
Yes, there is a risk.
I have had numerous times where Time Machine backed up and when trying to use later on, I would get the message that the TM backup was corrupt

Same here. That's why a TM backup should only be one of the 3 in the recommended 3-2-1 backup plan. As above bootable copies are now not necessary, or easy to make.
 
Hi,

I’m currently using Time Machine to create regular backups of my Mac. As far as I know (and hope), Time Machine allows me to perform a full system restore, including all apps and settings.

However, I’m curious: What are the actual advantages of third-party backup tools like Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper, beyond their ability to create directly bootable backups? Are there certain types of content that Time Machine doesn’t cover but these tools can back up? Am I taking a risk by relying solely on an internal backup system like Time Machine?

Thanks,
Learjet

In the past I've used TimeMachine to create backups. But, it happened a few times that backup was reported corrupt and unusable. Since then I am using ChronoSync for backups of my Documents folder to NAS. On that way I can use any available computer to get to the backup files if needed. All the sensitive data is stored in the encrypted disk images.
 
I'm afraid I can't help you here. I haven't booted from an external clone in ages. I actually don't even know how to do that. I tried the other week and realized that you can't just plug it in and choose a new startup disk like you could in the past and I didn't have the the time to figure out the new process.
FYI…..I got my SuperDuper clone to boot….🥳
The trick was to do a brand new ‘erase and copy’ clone, then start-up into recovery to select the disk.
(It doesn’t like it if you select the start-up disk from system prefs and restart)

Obviously it was sluggish, using a Samsung T7 USB drive, but glad to see it works….😁
 
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Bootable backups are broken in macOS15.2. Here is what Dave Nanian of Super duper said about it. And here is what Mike Bombich of CCC said. Note diametrically opposed positions! Personally I am 100% with Mike Bombich.

CCC ver 7 can be used as a complete Time Machine alternative, working the same way. It saves local snapshots on the boot volume like TM. CCCv7 will write local snapshots even if the backup drive is not connected....also like TM does. The Safety Net feature is provided by snapshots on the backup volume so that you can browse history like you can with TM.

The advantage CCC has over TM is that it has much more control of a number of parameters, eg scheduling and snapshot retention policy and much more. This is not necessarily a good thing for people who like the simplicity of TM, but is a good thing for people who want more control. CCC can be used simply but even then probably not quite as straightforward to set up as TM.

See the links in the CCC Blog post for much more info.
 
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Yep, I read about the 15.2 breakage issue, typical Apple.

Still on MacOS 14 here, so all good.
 
I finally quit using TM. During the years I lived in Buffalo, we used to say "The Bills always break your heart," and I say the same of TM. Sooner or later it corrupts itself -- typically about the time I need to get sometime from long ago.

I have never, that's never, had a TM backup that didn't eventually fail. And I don't scrimp on the disks, or anything like that.

So I'm all in with CCC now, with CS for some tasks.
 
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On the subject, has anybody used this new Carbon Copy Cloner feature (below) that temporarily downloads cloud files to back them up? I'm curious to hear how well it works.

Make local backups of cloud-only files​

Worried about losing files that were offloaded to a cloud service to “free up some space"? CCC can temporarily download cloud-only files from cloud-syncing services to make a local backup.
  • iCloud
  • Google Drive
  • Dropbox
  • OneDrive
  • Box
  • And more
 
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What are the actual advantages of third-party backup tools like Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper, beyond their ability to create directly bootable backups? Are there certain types of content that Time Machine doesn’t cover but these tools can back up? Am I taking a risk by relying solely on an internal backup system like Time Machine?
Neither can do bootable clones very well and they are explicitly not supported by CCC though they may work.

TM doesn't backup up cloud files not stored locally. CCC can backup cloud files by materialising cloud only files, backing up, and releasing them.

CCC has considerable configuration choices, particularly useful of you have external drives to be backed up. This why I use CCC.

If you want simplicity, the TM is the way to go. If you like tweaking, CCC is great.

Risks of TM only: TM by itself is fine for non-complex needs, so long as you also have an off-site backup.

My choice is: TM for boot volume only, CCC for boot and other volumes/disks, Arq Backup to cloud storage.
 
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I have never, that's never, had a TM backup that didn't eventually fail.

How long ago was that? Sounds like it might have been a while ago.

I used to feel the same about Time Machine, but since it was completely redesigned and overhauled for APFS I have found it fast and completely reliable, for backing up, and restoring both file level and whole system migration.

I use both CCC and TM but TM is my first choice for restoring. CCC is my backup backup.
 
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It may be helpful for those who read this thread over time to understand the definition of "fail." From time to time, TM will give users a notice that it needs to create a new backup. This is likely what "fail" means in prior posts. What's generally happened here is the TM backup on hand has got some corruption it can't repair, so it is alerting the user to the need to create a new TM backup. User can approve the prompt, it will create a new one and then it's business as usual (basically set it and forget it). Drive is fine, system is fine, fresh data backup is fine (or will be again as soon as it is finished creating the new backup).

Fail does NOT mean that all data is lost. So in a scenario where someone needed to recover from that pool of backups in that scenario, they can manually go into the files and find whatever they need to recover... almost exactly like they can in CCC or SuperDuper, etc backups. "Fail" just means how TM works- particularly in offering easy access to past versions of files- is no longer possible in the usual way... but the files are still on the disc if someone wants to dig in and find them manually... exactly as they would do in any clone-based backup software.

The big loss in this infrequent TM re-creation is the "back in time" history. Since TM is creating a brand new backup, there will be no history... exactly like simple clone backups have no history. This is akin to having an actual Time Machine able to travel back- say- 3 months MAX, now able to travel back to only earlier today... until tomorrow when it can travel back to 2 days and then the day after tomorrow when it can travel back 3 days, etc... UNTIL eventually it has the full 3 months of "back in time" capability again.

What causes this "fail"? Who knows? macOS bugs? Mac going to sleep doing a TM backup write? Gremlins? Evil Samsung trolls? Cheap Chinese chargers? <other>? But the main point is to not read more into the word than what it really means in this context.

Whatever one chooses for backup options, the smart recommendation is to always have at least TWO backups, with one stored offsite and regularly rotating with the one onsite (so both are fresh). In some scenario where fail means catastrophic loss such that one could not access files in the TM bundle at all, they could fetch the offsite TM drive and recover/restore from that one. The odds in both drives being corrupted at the same time is towards nill... even more so catastrophically corrupted. If someone is worried about being odd man out in that scenario, mix in a third drive for one more fresh backup. Each additional backup tremendously cuts the odds of data loss... especially when at least ONE is stored offsite. Guess what happens if you attach TWO TM drives and have TM use them? TM automatically alternates backups to each drive every other hour. That's also "set it and forget it" but now you have 2 independent backups (on independent hardware) going at the same time.

I've been using TM from the beginning and had no problems. Occasionally, I do get the "need to rebuild" message and by "occasionally," I mean maybe once every year or two. So I click "OK", let it rebuild (an invisible, background task while I use the Mac) and carry on normally. My offsite backup still is a full backup with history and by the time it too might need to rebuild, the onsite one has piled up "back in time" history again.

I like and have used SuperDuper and CCC at various points in the past. They are fine options as well. However, TM does seem to work quite well for me... so it would probably work well for others too... especially if they adopt the "at least 2 backup drives" (regularly rotated offsite-onsite) approach that protects against fire-flood-theft scenarios. Obviously, such scenarios that take out a Mac will also take out the lone backup drive sitting in close proximity to it (whether that one uses TM, CCC, SD or anything else).

If data is beyond precious and someone is a worst case scenario pessimist about their own data security, line up multiple drives for backup and use a combination of TM + SD + CCC with multiple drives... some stored offsite. Each additional (fresh) backup meaningfully reduces risk of data loss.
 
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It may be helpful for those who read this thread over time to understand the definition of "fail." From time to time, TM will give users a notice that it needs to create a new backup. This is likely what "fail" means in prior posts. What's generally happened here is the TM backup on hand has got some corruption it can't repair, so it is alerting the user to the need to create a new TM backup. User can approve the prompt, it will create a new one and then it's business as usual (basically set it and forget it). Drive is fine, system is fine, fresh data backup is fine (or will be again as soon as it is finished creating the new backup).

Fail does NOT mean that all data is lost. So in a scenario where someone needed to recover from that pool of backups in that scenario, they can manually go into the files and find whatever they need to recover... almost exactly like they can in CCC or SuperDuper, etc backups. "Fail" just means how TM works- particularly in offering easy access to past versions of files- is no longer possible in the usual way... but the files are still on the disc if someone wants to dig in and find them manually... exactly as they would do in any clone-based backup software.

The big loss in this infrequent TM re-creation is the "back in time" history. Since TM is creating a brand new backup, there will be no history... exactly like simple clone backups have no history. This is akin to having an actual Time Machine able to travel back- say- 3 months MAX, now able to travel back to only earlier today... until tomorrow when it can travel back to 2 days and then the day after tomorrow when it can travel back 3 days, etc... UNTIL eventually it has the full 3 months of "back in time" capability again.

What causes this "fail"? Who knows? macOS bugs? Mac going to sleep doing a TM backup write? Gremlins? Evil Samsung trolls? Cheap Chinese chargers? <other>? But the main point is to not read more into the word than what it really means in this context.

Whatever one chooses for backup options, the smart recommendation is to always have at least TWO backups, with one stored offsite and regularly rotating with the one onsite (so both are fresh). In some scenario where fail means catastrophic loss such that one could not access files in the TM bundle at all, they could fetch the offsite TM drive and recover/restore from that one. The odds in both drives being corrupted at the same time is towards nill... even more so catastrophically corrupted. If someone is worried about being odd man out in that scenario, mix in a third drive for one more fresh backup. Each additional backup tremendously cuts the odds of data loss... especially when at least ONE is stored offsite. Guess what happens if you attach TWO TM drives and have TM use them? TM automatically alternates backups to each drive every other hour. That's also "set it and forget it" but now you have 2 independent backups (on independent hardware) going at the same time.

I've been using TM from the beginning and had no problems. Occasionally, I do get the "need to rebuild" message and by "occasionally," I mean maybe once every year or two. So I click "OK", let it rebuild (an invisible, background task while I use the Mac) and carry on normally. My offsite backup still is a full backup with history and by the time it too might need to rebuild, the onsite one has piled up "back in time" history again.

I like and have used SuperDuper and CCC at various points in the past. They are fine options as well. However, TM does seem to work quite well for me... so it would probably work well for others too... especially if they adopt the "at least 2 backup drives" (regularly rotated offsite-onsite) approach that protects against fire-flood-theft scenarios. Obviously, such scenarios that take out a Mac will also take out the lone backup drive sitting in close proximity to it (whether that one uses TM, CCC, SD or anything else).

If data is beyond precious and someone is a worst case scenario pessimist about their own data security, line up multiple drives for backup and use a combination of TM + SD + CCC with multiple drives... some stored offsite. Each additional (fresh) backup meaningfully reduces risk of data loss.
I understand that you've been pleased with TM. Good for you.

To me "fail" means "becomes useless for my purposes," which is a long phrase and when writing a post I think that "fail" does just fine.

I've had long periods (measured in months) when TM did just fine, and when I needed to grab something from the past, I was able to find it, restore it, and so on. TM did its job perfectly. For the last 8 or 9 years my TM disk has been in an OWC or Akitio 4 bay Thunderbolt chassis. And each time TM failed -- oh, sorry, became useless for my purposes -- there was nothing wrong with the disk (according to DU).

I think it's unfair to potential new users not to alert them to this possibility. It happened to me often enough that I stopped using it, and have gone over to CCC (and Backblaze). Both of these cost money but have never barfed. TM has, and thus I'm done with it.

YMMV, as the saying goes.
 
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Not trying to defend TM vs. others at all- just trying to clarify what I guess(ed) some mean as "fail"ed. That's easy to read and interpret meaning that "need to rebuild" means all files are lost. They are not. Note I also praised CCC and SD myself (and have used both myself too).

And one can write a variation of "failed" for them too if they are used as they often are- to simply clone drives. If a file is corrupted on the internal drive- sometimes the user doesn't know until they try to open it- and they backup a clone of that drive, they've just cloned the corrupted file to their backup. Now both copies are actually "fails" for retrieval. macOS may be at fault for corrupting such files- not necessarily alternative software to TM- but that won't change anything for the user experience... as a corrupted file backed up is a corrupted file in 2 places instead of 1. It's almost certainly a lost file.

As in all things, cases can be made for and against everything. TM, CCC, SD and others (another tool I regularly use for select backups is Chronosync) work well and don't work well depending on who is asked.

To OPs (last) question, my answer would be no... especially if OP takes other advice and TM backs up to more than ONE drive, with one+ stored offsite. Why? Because even when TM alerts users that it needs to rebuild, the files are still there and can be recovered manually. And if there is also at least one more, fairly fresh backup offsite, even worst case "fail" scenario of local TM drive offers easy recovery from the other drive(s).

However, if OP wants more peace of mind, they can back up to more drives using the other options too... and/or switch to using CCC or SD entirely to hopefully multiple backup drives. Keep the various backup drives fresh and odds in loss of files shrink with each backup.
 
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I think two of the biggest things that make CCC better than Time Machine are:

CCC has the ability to mount backup images as a location and browse the files/folders, and simply drag & drop to wherever you want to restore to, without issue.

CCC does integrity checking which is very important to me in ensuring my backup data is “good.” Backups with corrupt data are worthless and with TM there’s really no way to know this for certain.
 
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