AEBS 5GHz illegal in UK and why?

[joelovesapple]

Hey everyone,

I am expecting a delivery this weekend of an Airport Extreme Base Station with Gigabit Ethernet and I only just realized that the backward UK forbids you to use it to transmit 5GHz on a network.

This is SO lame. I was planning to bridge the router (which I can still do), with another existing one, which will also double up as the modem via ethernet... and have the AEBS as a 5GHz n only mode to get super duper speeds for my iMac.

But now I read that I can't, even after doing extensive research on this all over.

Boy, am I peeved. I hope the speed will still be good but we have 2 cordless phones and a microwave and mobiles, like most people and these cause interference on the 2.4GHz band.

Can I just ask *why* it is illegal? It's not like the MoD or police can pop by and say 'Right Sir, you're under arrest as your network is so... liek, illegalz!'

Can I 'get away' with such a HEINIOUS crime?!

 

[BBC B 32k]

In the UK that frequency is used to broadcast messages of our financial collapse. It is also the same frequency that toasters use and you could end up with premature ejection of the non-browned bread.

Other than that it is a licensing issue. 5GHz is not commercially available yet. May be auctioned off later for more shopping channels.

 

[joelovesapple]

Very funny.

Got a real answer?

And if it isn't commercially available yet, then why are people all over the place using it with their Airport Extremes? You don't know what you're talking about, clearly...

 

[BBC B 32k]

Hmm.. sorry for the jest. Pub has just kicked out

Real answer is military radar use that band.

Sorry it is so boring. They are trying to work out a solution.

 

[joelovesapple]

Hmm.. sorry for the jest. Pub has just kicked out

Real answer is military radar use that band.

Sorry it is so boring. They are trying to work out a solution.

S'ok, no problem.

An example of how the UK is so backward as a nation then...

That really is ****, pardon my French.

 

[BBC B 32k]

Yeah... to be honest Apple did not consider that other countries may already be using that frequency.
This time I call shame on Apple.

Would love an AEBS though

Old Netgear here with an Airport Express for music (which stutters!!!)

Thanks

 

[joelovesapple]

Yeah... to be honest Apple did not consider that other countries may already be using that frequency.
This time I call shame on Apple.

Would love an AEBS though

Old Netgear here with an Airport Express for music (which stutters!!!)

Thanks

Oh, I do sympathize with you. I've got sick of it so that's one reason I decided to get something which could be 'extremely' good. Except I was streaming from my Mac to another PC on the network.

Would you happen to know if I can have it set to 'n -only' on a 2.4GHz band?

Thanks in advance.

 

[BBC B 32k]

as long as all devices are 'n' compliant then yes that is the ideal use. will be very fast. you still get great range also. the main issue I have is all the bricks in our english houses get in the way of a weak ('g') signal. Those Yanks and their cardboard houses have it easy (until a hurricane).

You will be much better off. 'n' is sooooo much faster / father than 'g'

 

[mkrishnan]

Yeah... to be honest Apple did not consider that other countries may already be using that frequency.
This time I call shame on Apple.

Is that fair? IEEE, the international organization governing electronics, alongside an industry group and other stakeholders worked together to draft an 802.11n design specification, and Apple designed to it, in essence, didn't they? Isn't everything that the AEBS (in its functions as a router) does covered within the actual 802.11n standard?

Also FWIW I thought it was wideband (40MHz) activity at 5GHz that was not permitted in the UK, and not the 5GHz band altogether?

 

[joelovesapple]

It shouldn't be a problem really as I'll essentially be running 2 networks merged into one - one Thomson Speedtouch 585 G router which is the one that this mac connects to at the moment, and it stinks right now; also my iPod Touch connects to it as does my Mums iBook and the Dell desktop.

When I get the AEBS I'm going to bridge these two together via an ethernet cable, and use the Thomson as the modem, do all the routing, and the base station for slower (g) devices.

The only other thing was that the n-only network was going to be 5GHz to get near enough 300m/bits per second; but now I just realized I can't due to our crappy laws, and that is how I came to make this thread.

Thanks for your help, I really do hope it will work.

 

[joelovesapple]

Is that fair? IEEE, the international organization governing electronics, alongside an industry group and other stakeholders worked together to draft an 802.11n design specification, and Apple designed to it, in essence, didn't they? Isn't everything that the AEBS (in its functions as a router) does covered within the actual 802.11n standard?

Also FWIW I thought it was wideband (40MHz) activity at 5GHz that was not permitted in the UK, and not the 5GHz band altogether?

Interesting. Care to elaborate?

 

[BBC B 32k]

Qualcomm Incorporated have the rights to the 5GHz spectrum.

You can use 5GHz equipment in bands a & b with low power. Band c (I think AEBS uses this) is only used with a licence, and then only with low power.

Qualcomm Incorporated probably have ideas to use their £8,334,000 investment without Apple getting in on the act.

 

[mkrishnan]

Interesting. Care to elaborate?

Which part?

802.11n

802.11n and wide/dual band operation in the UK (sorry, I don't seem to see any more recent info on this)/

 

[joelovesapple]

You can use 5GHz equipment in bands a & b with low power. Band c (I think AEBS uses this) is only used with a licence, and then only with low power.

So I need a licience?

802.11n and wide/dual band operation in the UK (sorry, I don't seem to see any more recent info on this)/

Thanks, mkrishnan.

I have already read the second link you pointed to, which is how I found about this whole thing anyway...

How can the authorities know that you're using a 5GHz band anyway? Could you get away with it or am I better off having n only mode on 2.4?

Thanks.

 

[Tourist]

here are three 5GHz frequency ranges permitted for wireless networking use in the UK:

Band A (5150-5350MHz), Licence free use

Band B (5470-5725MHz), Licence free use

Band C (5725-5850MHz), Licence required for operation

The bands in question for UK 802.11a equipment are 5150-5350 MHz (Band A), 5470-5725 MHz (Band B). The higher band, 5725-5850 MHz (Band C), is a licensed band to be used for the Installation of Fixed Wireless Access (FWA) services between stationary points. Bands A and B have been granted licence exempt status for use by public and private users for mobile/nomadic Wireless Local Area Networks (WLAN).

Please note that this differs from the 802.11a bands used in the USA. In the USA 11a equipment also uses the range 5.725GHz to 5.825GHz (Band C). However, the permitted power levels for use in the USA are much lower than the UK: The "low" band, 5.15 - 5.25 GHz, has a maximum of 50 mW (UK 200mW). The "middle" band is 5.25 - 5.35 GHz, with a maximum of 250 mW (UK 1W). The "high" band is 5.725 - 5.825 GHz, with a maximum of 1 W (UK 4W but licensed). For both these reasons (frequency range and power)

it is NOT advisable to use 5GHz radio device imported from or destined for the US market.

You *might* be able to get away with using the upper band, but if there is a licensed point to point user in your area, you are a) going to annoy them, and b) probably have it swamp your signal, so probably best to stick to using channels in 2.4

I know it is stupid that it wont work like it should, but then if the world was logical, you would be able to use the same TV system all over the world, or their would not be regions for DVDs and Blu Ray ,

 

[joelovesapple]

Thanks Tourist.

So if I did however, want to use a 5GHz band, I am totally safe regarding liciensing if I were to use one of the first two, a and b?

Thanks for all the help and sorry for all the questions!

 

[millar876]

Real answer is military radaruse that band.

No we don't. Our radars are in the MHz band and not exactly at the high end of that either, and sat coms are much higher in the GHz band.

No idea why it's illegal, but there's nothing to stop you enabling it in the setup utility. (apart from aparent legal issues) I work and live at a radar base and they have such a high output that it would overpower any 11n network for a couple of hundred miles if it were on the same band

 

[Phil A.]

The 5Ghz band isn't illegal in the UK, it's the use of wide channels that isn't allowed. If you set your AEBS to UK as a country, you get the option of 5Ghz, but not the "Use Wide Bands" checkbox. As a side effect, this means the max throughput of the AEBS in the UK is half that for countries that do allow wide bands. Interestingly, if you select France as your country you can then enable wide bands on a UK purchased AEBS. Not that I'd advocate doing that though because it does make the setup "illegal"

 

[joelovesapple]

Well thankyou for all the support everyone. It has been great and I'll recommend other Mac users to turn here if they need expert advice.

I received the AEBS and it took no more than 10 minutes to get up and running. It seemed to just read my mind and know what it was that I intended to do!

Only thing is that I tried to set up a shared printer and my Leopard Mac can't see it also the Windows machine could not print to it even with Bonjour enabled and stuff (I used the bonjour app too).

Overall though its super and my thoroughput has increased 100-fold. I ended up going with the 5GHz non-wide band in the end and it is just fine.

Thoroughly recommended product, well DONE Apple! You've made what has previously been a chore into something that is a walk in the park.


!!!

 

[NATO]

Interestingly, if you select France as your country you can then enable wide bands on a UK purchased AEBS. Not that I'd advocate doing that though because it does make the setup "illegal"

It would be truly awful if my finger accidentally slipped and selected 'Ireland' rather than 'United Kingdom' when I set up my new Time Capsule wouldn't it?

 

[Peterkro]

It would be truly awful if my finger accidentally slipped and selected 'Ireland' rather than 'United Kingdom' when I set up my new Time Capsule wouldn't it?

Which illustrates the stupidity of the law, in the six counties it's illegal maybe a hundred yards away over the border it's fine. Me I live in the Irish part of Gloucestershire.

 

[zen]

Hold on... all of the specs for the AEBS on the UK Apple site talk about 5GHz. There are no footnotes about 5GHz being disallowed in the UK. There is no text about it anywhere.

So as a prospective purchaser of an AEBS, how would I even know? Does the AEBS set-up utility come up with a dialogue box informing you that 5GHz is unavailable in the UK?

And if it did, then you could do Apple for false advertising...

As millar876 says, there is nothing to stop you setting 5GHz up in the setup utility.

So how do people know?

 

[Phil A.]

Hold on... all of the specs for the AEBS on the UK Apple site talk about 5GHz. There are no footnotes about 5GHz being disallowed in the UK. There is no text about it anywhere.

So as a prospective purchaser of an AEBS, how would I even know? Does the AEBS set-up utility come up with a dialogue box informing you that 5GHz is unavailable in the UK?

And if it did, then you could do Apple for false advertising...

As millar876 says, there is nothing to stop you setting 5GHz up in the setup utility.

So how do people know?

If you read the posts above, you'll see that 5Ghz isn't illegal in the UK - it's the use of Wide Bands that is. That's why if you select UK as your country you don't get the option to use them. Also, in the UK the speed of the AEBS is described by Apple as being lower than on the US Site

 

[Fordy]

Let's just clear this up once and for all.

In the UK you may not use the 40MHz Channel in the 5GHz range.

2.4GHz @ 20 is fine.
2.4GHz @ 40 is fine.
5GHz @ 20 is fine.


So Yes, you can use 5GHz just not on the 40MHz channel.

 

[Serif]

OK, sorry for being dense, but it's still not clear to me if this is a policy or an implementation restriction. Using wide bands in the 5GHz band is illegal but do Apple physically disable this functionality as opposed to expecting you to obey the law? If the functionality was restricted then I'd not expect to see "Use wide channels" as an option as shown in the following screen shot?