Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

timerickson

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 23, 2019
128
118
The RDNA 2 family was announced today, with the 6800 series on sale Nov 18th, and the 6900 series on sale Dec 8th.

The natural question then is: will we see MPX modules of these chips this year for BTO Mac Pros? If so, the natural time to, at least, preview them would be the slated Nov 17th event.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tevion5
Shouldn't have much impact one way or the other. Especially, if Apple just shrinks the height to get to "half the size".

Going to just one MPX Bay would still fix in "half" of the Mac Pro height. Pretty likely it is the other slots; 6-7 or 5-7 that would get extracted as they are partially covered by the middle fan of the full sized Mac Pro that would get tossed along with the second MPX bay to say height. Tossing that second (middle) MPX Bay would get rid of about 1/3" of the height if driving toward "about half the size". Could drop slot 8 also if put those I/O sockets on the logic board.

Getting rid of the MPX connector in Bay 1 would likely mean the new system to solely using the integrated GPU to drive the system Thunderbolt 3 (or 4) needs. That would be a useful entry level configuration but probably not one they'd want to be stuck with in all configurations. Dropping MPX connector also means more cables internally. Apple is into more cables inside of an even smaller system? Probably not.

IMHO, it is likely loosing slots in this "half sized" Mac Pro because the Apple Silicon SoC is relatively much lower on PCI-e lane provisioning capabilities than the Xeon W 3000 series. Might be looking at something as low as 32-36 lanes total. The slots are disappearing because there is less to feed them with ( without deeply thinning out the aggregate bandwidth. )

Decent chance they are just looping the 'iMac class" SoC package infrastructure to cover this system also. ( core count and some other features may different but the same physical packaging. ). This is go get to a cheaper Mac Pro in terms of SoC costs for Apple also ( as well as being more affordable Mac Pro for customers ).

Whatever is on the GPU MPX module would probably work in the Mac Pro 2019 also if proper drivers are put into the x86-64 version of macOS 11.


P.S. If Apple cuts the "Depth" ( currently 8.58 inches) [ 'width' of Mac Pro if looking head-on at the holes in the front ] or width ( currently 17.7 ) [ 'depth' when look head-on. ] then that would blow up the MPX modules. But that would also blow up a large quantity other add-in card slot solutions too. Kind of pointless after the back-track from the MP 2013 to one again go back to only Apple custom cards.

They can extremely easily avoid that by taking most (if not all ) of the half by just reducing the height of the tower. ( can shrink the feet and handles if aiming for more literal desktop placement of the system. ) . Dropping all that high grade aluminum will also reduce the weight. ( very little need for wheels and shipping costs and lower environment footprint in shipping. )

Also if did a rack version could get two side by side. So not as much bloat if new multiple phsyical systems. Shrinking on multiple dimensions probably doesn't buy as much ( the rack is stll just as deep as it was and still not going to compete with 1U-2U optimized enclosures is shrink to 3U. ). RAM/SSD module upgrades would be a bit less awkward if get rid of much of the "backside" ( "bottom side in rack model) infrastructure. could shave incremental amount on "rack height" there that probably doesn't matter much in the big picture.

You are assuming that it's going to be a modular Mac Pro. IMO it's going to be a trashcan 2.0
 
RDNA2 drivers are present in Big Sur. There would be no reason to wait until the next Mac Pro imo. Even considering the addition of USB4/TB4 and PCIE 4.0 to the MPX lineup, they would all be backwards compatible.

I definitely think it will appear eventually, but not this year. It took ~5 months for the w5700x to show up after the 5700XT went on sale.
 
New framebuffer personalities in the latest build. Previously after new ones have showed up Apple released the corresponding GPUs in Macs within weeks. It's possible they are for an iMac, but I think it's more likely Apple would put these Big Navi GPUs in the Mac Pro.
 
I'm hoping Apple will announce an MPX module on this card by next year. But my gut feeling tells me they won't even be releasing updates on the current Mac Pro and only announce new cards once they are ready to release the Mac Pro Silicone version to make sure it has the "new features".

I strongly believe that the MP will be the last one to move to ARM and if it happens, it won't be before at least 2 years.

To think of it, Apple can get the hardware from AMD, make an MPX module and sell it for double the price. I can't see what this won't be happening. Afterall it's a modular PC, if they can sell you something and make profit, they will.
 
  • Like
Reactions: eksu and tevion5
Glad to hear your setup is working well for you. I’m pretty stuck on Premiere and not willing to transition to FCP or Resolve. So I just sold my 7,1 after only 4 months. I blame Adobe’s crappy software for not taking advantage of the hardware and also the pandemic for wiping out most of my work.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: chfilm and OkiRun
Glad to hear your setup is working well for you. I’m pretty stuck on Premiere and not willing to transition to FCP or Resolve. So I just sold my 7,1 after only 4 months. I blame Adobe’s crappy software for not taking advantage of the hardware and also the pandemic for wiping out most of my work.
So sorry to hear that. God willing, things will hopefully pick up after the election and the coronavirus vaccine becomes available.

I don’t use Premiere, but I recently heard it finally uses ProRes RAW using Apple’s Metal technology. It might be a good option in the future if you have a compatible setup.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chfilm and OkiRun
This may put a dent in the MPX module hopes:

Shouldn't have much impact one way or the other. Especially, if Apple just shrinks the height to get to "half the size".

Going to just one MPX Bay would still fix in "half" of the Mac Pro height. Pretty likely it is the other slots; 6-7 or 5-7 that would get extracted as they are partially covered by the middle fan of the full sized Mac Pro that would get tossed along with the second MPX bay to say height. Tossing that second (middle) MPX Bay would get rid of about 1/3" of the height if driving toward "about half the size". Could drop slot 8 also if put those I/O sockets on the logic board.

Getting rid of the MPX connector in Bay 1 would likely mean the new system to solely using the integrated GPU to drive the system Thunderbolt 3 (or 4) needs. That would be a useful entry level configuration but probably not one they'd want to be stuck with in all configurations. Dropping MPX connector also means more cables internally. Apple is into more cables inside of an even smaller system? Probably not.

IMHO, it is likely loosing slots in this "half sized" Mac Pro because the Apple Silicon SoC is relatively much lower on PCI-e lane provisioning capabilities than the Xeon W 3000 series. Might be looking at something as low as 32-36 lanes total. The slots are disappearing because there is less to feed them with ( without deeply thinning out the aggregate bandwidth. )

Decent chance they are just looping the 'iMac class" SoC package infrastructure to cover this system also. ( core count and some other features may different but the same physical packaging. ). This is go get to a cheaper Mac Pro in terms of SoC costs for Apple also ( as well as being more affordable Mac Pro for customers ).

Whatever is on the GPU MPX module would probably work in the Mac Pro 2019 also if proper drivers are put into the x86-64 version of macOS 11.


P.S. If Apple cuts the "Depth" ( currently 8.58 inches) [ 'width' of Mac Pro if looking head-on at the holes in the front ] or width ( currently 17.7 ) [ 'depth' when look head-on. ] then that would blow up the MPX modules. But that would also blow up a large quantity other add-in card slot solutions too. Kind of pointless after the back-track from the MP 2013 to one again go back to only Apple custom cards.

They can extremely easily avoid that by taking most (if not all ) of the half by just reducing the height of the tower. ( can shrink the feet and handles if aiming for more literal desktop placement of the system. ) . Dropping all that high grade aluminum will also reduce the weight. ( very little need for wheels and shipping costs and lower environment footprint in shipping. )

Also if did a rack version could get two side by side. So not as much bloat if new multiple phsyical systems. Shrinking on multiple dimensions probably doesn't buy as much ( the rack is stll just as deep as it was and still not going to compete with 1U-2U optimized enclosures is shrink to 3U. ). RAM/SSD module upgrades would be a bit less awkward if get rid of much of the "backside" ( "bottom side in rack model) infrastructure. could shave incremental amount on "rack height" there that probably doesn't matter much in the big picture.
 
You are assuming that it's going to be a modular Mac Pro. IMO it's going to be a trashcan 2.0

It is 3x as bing as the Mac Pro 2013 ( "transcan" ) if it is "about half the size". Why would it need to be 3 times as big if it wasn't modular?

If it was going to be 1/4 or 1/5 the size of the current Mac Pro then there would be a creditable window for it going back to MP 2013 design constraints. This is 3x as big. No way it is the same thing with the same design constraints.

The CPU SoC is probably going to be less "modular" as it is likely it is soldered on. But most of the space left even if downside the Mac Pro 2019 by approximately 50% isn't about the CPU aspect of the design.


The bigger presumption is that Apple is going to come up with something "magical" in the GPU solution space in the mid-top end of the GPU performance range. That is not an assumption I'm making. They probably are going to still need to work with 3rd party cards to be competitive.
 
Last edited:
The path forward entirely relies on how this ARM GPU/eGPU support is handled, unless Apple did something crazy like somehow embrace Linux drivers within the OS. We’ll likely have minor updates in the next 2-3 years, but that could have an expiration date if it is entirely closed system with Apple-based GPU options only for ARM.

Already hearing from business partners they won’t go ARM for 3+ years (if ever) until Apple proves the update cycle and expectations. They refuse to be first generation purchasers, partially because cost/benefit and long term value is too hard to determine right now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ssgbryan and OkiRun
So, less RAM than the Intel versions, you can't boot to windows, so you have to virtualise non-natively in that limited ram capacity, you only get half the TB ports, and their functionality is a step backwards to TB1/2 times, losing the one thing that was one of the original selling points of Light Peak when first demonstrated.

*sarcastic 80s movie clap*


That's very expected and that's why as I mentioned last month, the Mac Pro will be the last Apple computer I'm buying in the next 5 years if ever.
 
When can we expect driver support if at all for these new cards in OSX?

Keep an eye on this list:

No indication if or when it will happen. Apple ARM changed everything.

Separately - hearing of GPU glitches with hardware processing, specifically with H264, in very early Big Sur testing from colleagues. Seems no drivers were added from previous/last beta and is quite the headache to troubleshoot. Appears something MIGHT have been addressed with 5XXX drivers that could be contributing, but cannot personally confirm. Would hold off for anyone thinking about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OkiRun and chfilm
Do not believe any prior MacPro has had official GPU upgrades from Apple that were 100% standalone without being issued as part of a BTO option on a machine available for purchase.

MPX would require an official release from Apple since it is proprietary.
Non-MPX is a different story. If it's compatible on that eGPU list, it would also be compatible via direct PCIe.

Have heard rumors the only reason W5700X was released was due to stock issues securing enough 580's to keep units moving beyond 2020. They needed a "low end" base GPU to offer in 2021 to continue moving machines. This also brought all products in line with 5XXX series. The need to manage that GPU supply/constraint no longer exists with ARM and Apple GPU.

You can not like the reality, but unless Apple decides to offer an MPX GPU upgrade for MP7,1 in the next several weeks, that situation you describe could be entirely likely. These machines are being phased out by Apple and it is entirely their goal to replace with Apple Silicon models.

They have not made the ARM GPU intentions beyond M1 clear at all, but I have little expectation non-Apple GPUs will work as intended or expected unless they somehow magically embrace Linux drivers in the OS.
 
  • Like
  • Wow
Reactions: ssgbryan and chfilm
Do not believe any prior MacPro has had official GPU upgrades from Apple that were 100% standalone without being issued as part of a BTO option on a machine available for purchase.

MPX would require an official release from Apple since it is proprietary.

Apple has already released two MPX modules post-launch, the W5500X, an the W5700X. Both of which are available to purchase standalone. Mac Pro 6,1 is not a good indication of anything, as they admitted they boxed themselves into a corner.

Have heard rumors the only reason W5700X was released was due to stock issues securing enough 580's to keep units moving beyond 2020. They needed a "low end" base GPU to offer in 2021 to continue moving machines. This also brought all products in line with 5XXX series. The need to manage that GPU supply/constraint no longer exists with ARM and Apple GPU.

This makes no sense. The W5500X would replace the 580X as base config, not the W5700X.

These machines are being phased out by Apple and it is entirely their goal to replace with Apple Silicon models.

They have not made the ARM GPU intentions beyond M1 clear at all, but I have little expectation non-Apple GPUs will work as intended or expected unless they somehow magically embrace Linux drivers in the OS.

There is no solid indication that is true. If the current rumors hold, we'll see a half size Mac Pro with Apple Silicon, which will be sold alongside the full-height Mac Pro. Apple Silicon may not currently support PCIe lanes, but I'd be surprised if we don't see that in a few years time. That doesn't preclude updates to the Intel Mac Pro, even if only MPX Modules. I'd like to think they learned their lesson of the 2013 Mac Pro, and are committed to maintaining their most expensive product to date.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OkiRun and chfilm
The drivers should allow for off the shelf non-MPX versions. Keep an eye on that eGPU list. Applies to PCIe compatibility as well. Usually issues for first 3-6 months as OS versions update and drivers mature (hopefully).

Will caution, some on this thread have had tremendous issues in the past being early adopters of 5XXX GPUs, even with semi-polished drivers. Numerous threads troubleshooting issues related to GPU. If you’re looking for stability and polished experience, do NOT jump in to the 6XXX series early, even if drivers are present.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chfilm and w1z
These are gaming cards. My guess is Apple will wait until there is a professional version, such as a Radeon Pro W6900X. My best guess is sometime next year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: w1z
Man I wish people wouldn’t say there are gaming cards and pro cards 😝 jk

For video and cg rendering there’s almost zero difference if that’s what you are doing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: richinaus
The latest macOS build has support for the new AMD RX 6000 Series GPUs.
I'm hoping Apple will announce an MPX module on this card by next year. But my gut feeling tells me they won't even be releasing updates on the current Mac Pro and only announce new cards once they are ready to release the Mac Pro Silicone version to make sure it has the "new features".
Another member, Mister Andrew has installed MacOS Beta 11.0.1 and has posted :

"The latest macOS build has support for the new AMD RX 6000 Series GPUs."

Lou
 
  • Like
Reactions: LeonPro
Can I just say that I’m really happy with the performance of my single Vega II when editing ProRes RAW from a Sony A7S III? Final Cut saturates the GPU processor and RAM while the 16c processor gets pushed to 1,300% usage in iStat. It’s so satisfying to see these computing resources getting used rather than sitting idle as they do with most other apps.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OkiRun
This may put a dent in the MPX module hopes:

Won't expect it before 18 months at least
 
  • Like
Reactions: eksu
No Intel i9 or AMD processor, that’s at least the short term wildcard. Lot remains to be seen how it truly performs for “pro” tasks and limitations by software that isn’t fully ported. I wouldn’t put faith in keynote demo hype on this transition.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ssgbryan
You are assuming that it's going to be a modular Mac Pro. IMO it's going to be a trashcan 2.0
That seems highly unlikely to me. Apple know very well, how much of a flop the trashcan was, and they know how excited everyone was for the 7,1.

They’ll also be keenly aware of how many people are grumbling about being priced out of the 7,1. So a smaller Mac “Midi” tower, with something like four PCIe slots (just like the original Mac Pros) makes far more sense.

They get to trade off the hype of the 7,1 (with a mini cheesegrater design), minimise development costs (by using the same MPX modules as the 7,1), and make a whole bunch of sales by giving people what they actually want, a normal, modern, expandable tower that runs OSX.

It surely has to be a no-brainer strategy-wise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Flint Ironstag
I find it hard to digest the whole story. Even if they go with the mini cheese grater design and limited PCIE slots, do you think the price would be drop significantly?

I mean a Xeon W-3225 ( 8 core ) is being sold for almost $1500 a that's for the CPU alone. Adding the that an MPX module, 32GB of RAM, 256GB SSD, a motherboard and a nice aluminum case, we're already in the 4000 USD range.

I bet it's much more cost effective to cut the 7.1 price down instead of going through all the R&D to make an exact identical performing machine for 20% less.

I even find it strange that they're willing to introduce a mini mac pro when their focus is now on ARM.

In my understanding, a Pro is a flagship. Apple spent too much money and effort on developing the 7,1, a successor of the 7.1 should be better spec'ed and I'm not sure what Intel has to offer until then but if they happen to ship it with faster CPUs, that would be the next Mac Pro. So it's either a MP8,1 or a Mac something but definitely not PRO.

IMO, the main issue is that the XDR is only compatible with a MP 7,1 a MBP or an iMac 2019-2020.

For graphic designers and CAD users, a Mac tower with built-in powerful dual graphic cards and a decent CPU is more than enough to drive the display and get the job done. iMac users aren't really interested in a second display that cost 3 times their AIO AFAIK.

Time will tell...
I don't think the 8,1 is meant to replace the 7,1. It's meant for the Apple hobbyist and mid-level business entrepaneur; a smaller and less powerful model - a midi ~
The machine to lure all the 1.1, 2.1, 3.1, 4.1, and 5.1 users over to a new machine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Flint Ironstag
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.