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Ulfric

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Original poster
Apr 4, 2018
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AMD may have an Apple M1 competitor in the works. Rumor is that there are two versions of this chip being developed, with and without integrated RAM. It is possible that AMD could be looking to revive its K12 Core design or improve on it with newer Cortex designs to exploit the highly lucrative ARM market.


Known leaker Mauri QHD has tweeted that AMD has an M1 competitor prototype already in the works. He says that the company is developing two versions of the chip — one with integrated RAM and one without. Apparently, the prototype is "almost ready". No other information is available.

While information about the supposed M1 competitor is still scarce, this is not the first time we've been hearing about such new AMD design in the works.

Back in 2016, when Jim Keller was at the helm of CPU affairs at AMD, the company announced the K12 Core — a chip based on the 64-bit ARM v8 design. However, that chip never made it to market. Earlier this year, in May, Komachi Ensaka managed to put together an AMD roadmap that curiously listed a "K12 FFX" entry between the years 2017 and 2022.

Assuming that this so-called "K12 FFX" is for real, it may be intended for ultra-low power laptops and other mobile devices. Hopefully, by the time this chip hits market, Microsoft working together with AMD would be able to improve x86 emulation on ARM. Or better still, AMD can allow for an x86 consistency model like M1 to speed up legacy apps. This is something not currently possible on Snapdragon chips.

Not so long ago, AMD patents pertaining to "Instruction subset implementation for low power operation" surfaced online, which postulated several hybrid processor designs for mobile devices. While not fully clear if these designs are for x86 or ARM, it does point to the fact that a radically new low-power CPU architecture is indeed cooking in AMD labs.

As always, such rumors should be taken with a pinch of salt. In fact, there were rumors about an AMD Ryzen C7 ARM SoC with an RDNA2 mobile GPU onboard, which later turned out to be fake. However, the probability does not seem too distant at this point and traditional x86 chip makers would do well having an ARM portfolio as well.


https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-r...pple-M1-competitor-in-the-works.507238.0.html
 
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Serban55

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yes but for that you need windows 10 arm since macOS will never come for 3d party, and beside that you need win10 arm based apps....and we know how "well" win10 emulation works

It is hard....very hard for anyone outside Apple to do this right
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
The rumors I heard (sorry no links) seem to indicate that AMD is moving to have ram on the same silicon on the cores, much like what Apple did. That would probably bring their chips up to parity with performance (I'm guessing). Apple still holds the lead on battery life.

AMD seems to be a bit more nimble and quicker to respond to market conditions then Intel, and while Intel does have some interesting stuff in their pipeline, I don't think its anything that could compete with Apple's Mx chips.

As for Windows, I gotta believe MS is looking to better improve their windows on ARM offering but so far its rather lacking. I don't see them rolling out an ARM based windows version that would equal their X86 windows version in terms of functionality or performance.
 

AndyMacAndMic

macrumors 65816
May 25, 2017
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yes but for that you need windows 10 arm since macOS will never come for 3d party, and beside that you need win10 arm based apps....and we know how "well" win10 emulation works

It is hard....very hard for anyone outside Apple to do this right

Nothing is certain yet, but

https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-r...pple-M1-competitor-in-the-works.507238.0.html

Quote from the linked article:

--------

Assuming that this so-called "K12 FFX" is for real, it may be intended for ultra-low power laptops and other mobile devices. Hopefully, by the time this chip hits market, Microsoft working together with AMD would be able to improve x86 emulation on ARM. Or better still, AMD can allow for an x86 consistency model like M1 to speed up legacy apps. This is something not currently possible on Snapdragon chips.

Not so long ago, AMD patents pertaining to "Instruction subset implementation for low power operation" surfaced online, which postulated several hybrid processor designs for mobile devices. While not fully clear if these designs are for x86 or ARM, it does point to the fact that a radically new low-power CPU architecture is indeed cooking in AMD labs.

--------


I am not an expert in chip design and someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand from the above (second link) it could be possible that AMD joins ARM and x86 in the design.

As said, nothing is certain and maybe I have an incorrect interpretation of the article.
 
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laptech

macrumors 601
Apr 26, 2013
4,151
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Earth
What ever AMD is 'cooking up', they have to have Microsoft on board because if AMD intend to move away from x86, they will need to have an operating system because without it, no one will be interested in their CPU's.

AMD and Intel both have the money, the expertise and hardware to design and build what ever power efficent chip they want but it will need an OS meaning they need Microsoft to be interested.
 

T'hain Esh Kelch

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2001
6,485
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Denmark
What ever AMD is 'cooking up', they have to have Microsoft on board because if AMD intend to move away from x86, they will need to have an operating system because without it, no one will be interested in their CPU's.
That is already available. What isn't, is software for that OS.
 

Ulfric

macrumors regular
Original poster
Apr 4, 2018
160
124
Nothing is certain yet, but

https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-r...pple-M1-competitor-in-the-works.507238.0.html

Quote from the linked article:

--------

Assuming that this so-called "K12 FFX" is for real, it may be intended for ultra-low power laptops and other mobile devices. Hopefully, by the time this chip hits market, Microsoft working together with AMD would be able to improve x86 emulation on ARM. Or better still, AMD can allow for an x86 consistency model like M1 to speed up legacy apps. This is something not currently possible on Snapdragon chips.

Not so long ago, AMD patents pertaining to "Instruction subset implementation for low power operation" surfaced online, which postulated several hybrid processor designs for mobile devices. While not fully clear if these designs are for x86 or ARM, it does point to the fact that a radically new low-power CPU architecture is indeed cooking in AMD labs.

--------


I am not an expert in chip design and someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand from the above (second link) it could be possible that AMD joins ARM and x86 in the design.

As said, nothing is certain and maybe I have an incorrect interpretation of the article.

They already tried it, Search the term Skybridge on Twitter. It was when Jim Keller was working in AMD. Later they canned the project in 2015. I think they are trying to dust of that project or maybe they never stopped working on it, but seeing Apple, they seem to think there is a viable market in Desktop/Laptop for ARM CPUs. Some of them are making some inroads in HPC & Datacenter as well (Fujitsu's A64FX & Amazon's Graviton) Which AMD has been prioritizing with Epyc
 

SteveJUAE

macrumors 601
Aug 14, 2015
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As for Windows, I gotta believe MS is looking to better improve their windows on ARM offering but so far its rather lacking. I don't see them rolling out an ARM based windows version that would equal their X86 windows version in terms of functionality or performance.
W10 on arm currently is fine for most especially just dailies and MS enterprise software, whilst performance is not there battery endurance is and 19 hours plus on Samsung Book S has been a reality for best part of a year now with LTE support in a sub 2lb footprint

MS are committed to 64 bit support shortly so soon not to be lacking in software, just chip manufactures need to up performance for more demanding users
 

Erehy Dobon

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Some of them are making some inroads in HPC & Datacenter as well (Fujitsu's A64FX & Amazon's Graviton) Which AMD has been prioritizing with Epyc
This is my belief. AMD is gunning for datacenter & HPC. They aren't going after Intel, they are going after Nvidia, Qualcomm and Samsung.

Ultimately, they will probably try to jump into the mobile market. There are far more SoC unit sales for smartphones than desktop/consumer computers.

Apple was only able to create the M1 SoCs because of their expansive mobile presence.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
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W10 on arm currently is fine for most especially just dailies and MS enterprise software,
Seeing what Apple did, not just strictly performance wise but compatibility, illustrates how far MS has to go to improve windows 10 ARM. I get that its a totally different issue, give that Apple controls both the hardware and software but the point remains macOS on ARM is a better more polished product then windows on ARM
 

Ulfric

macrumors regular
Original poster
Apr 4, 2018
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124
This is my belief. AMD is gunning for datacenter & HPC. They aren't going after Intel, they are going after Nvidia, Qualcomm and Samsung.

Ultimately, they will probably try to jump into the mobile market. There are far more SoC unit sales for smartphones than desktop/consumer computers.

Apple was only able to create the M1 SoCs because of their expansive mobile presence.

Now that AMD acquiring Xilinx it is a big step closer to having everything inhouse to be able to stay relevant in the near future. Based on costumers needs they will be able to mix and match various compute units in one package.

If you combine CPU, GPU, and FPGA cores you can build powerful processors geared towards whatever you need. The FPGA cores will allow you (or 3rd party resellers) to economically deliver specialized chips in limited quantities. You can enter all kinds of high margin niche markets or just deliver massive volumes of raw compute power with added specialized accelerators to datacenters.

They might even introduce an eASIC program which means we would get more varied SoC in consumer products.
 

Erehy Dobon

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Seeing what Apple did, not just strictly performance wise but compatibility, illustrates how far MS has to go to improve windows 10 ARM. I get that its a totally different issue, give that Apple controls both the hardware and software but the point remains macOS on ARM is a better more polished product then windows on ARM
I'm not sure Microsoft has the path to challenge Apple in this venue.

Apple got here because of the iPhone. Microsoft completely blew it and is no longer a factor in mobile (smartphone/tablet) computing.

Apple's audacious gamble was releasing the ARM-powered (not Intel) iPhone in 2007, basing iOS on the same Darwin kernel that powered OS X/macOS then making their own ARM silicon in house in the process kicking back Samsung (CPU) and Imagination (GPU) to the curb.

The big hardware breakthrough was 64-bit in-house ARM on iPhone. That took the rest of the semiconductor industry totally by surprise and left all competitors speechless.

Because of Apple's iDevice unit sales, it makes sense to bring this to their PCs. It never would have worked the other way around with Mac's low marketshare.

Microsoft's far bigger worry is Google not Apple. Google already has the dominant foothold in mobile device operating systems (Android) and has a presence in the PC world (ChromeOS). Google also is a major cloud computing competitor.

You can see this play out in Google's cloud office offerings versus Microsoft's presence. There's also the nascent cloud gaming rivalry: Microsoft Xbox Game Pass cloud gaming vs. Google Stadia. Plus there's Nvidia GeForce NOW.
 
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romanof

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2020
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I have a feeling that Nvidia is looking at a hard road ahead. And also the division of AMD that makes Radon. Far back in the prehistoric times, there were very successful companies making add on cards for PCs. Ethernet adapters, Audio adapters, Memory cards, Hard disk cards and so on. But eventually the Ethernet was included on most Motherboards and away went those companies. Then sound was added, and into the dumps went Creative Technology and their very popular Sound Blaster was no more. Integrated USB killed the add on serial and parallel cards and finally, everything was included in their delivered PC that the average person needed.

Yes, video cards are still a valid business, but only for high end users. The M1 and follow-ons (and whatever AMD and Intel make to copy any successes) shows what will probably happen. Just like the evolution of motherboards, the processor chip will begin to include everything, and it will be better and faster than an add on.

Just my $.02 worth in a moment of musing.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,155
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I have a feeling that Nvidia is looking at a hard road ahead. And also the division of AMD that makes Radon. Far back in the prehistoric times, there were very successful companies making add on cards for PCs. Ethernet adapters, Audio adapters, Memory cards, Hard disk cards and so on. But eventually the Ethernet was included on most Motherboards and away went those companies. Then sound was added, and into the dumps went Creative Technology and their very popular Sound Blaster was no more. Integrated USB killed the add on serial and parallel cards and finally, everything was included in their delivered PC that the average person needed.

Yes, video cards are still a valid business, but only for high end users. The M1 and follow-ons (and whatever AMD and Intel make to copy any successes) shows what will probably happen. Just like the evolution of motherboards, the processor chip will begin to include everything, and it will be better and faster than an add on.

Just my $.02 worth in a moment of musing.

Some may still want an Ethernet card for 2.5, 10 or 100 GB Ethernet.

I would not mind it if Apple went into the Server market as well.
 

ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
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Imo AMD's problem will remain to be volume. They won't be able to deliver enough volume for consumer market. I do hope AMD to succeed. Intel's dominant in the Windows laptop world is currently unchallenged, and thus the lack of innovation.
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,146
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I thought it might be Intel to take the can’t beat em join em route (perhaps they still will yet) but if this helps get the largely stagnant PC market moving forward again then big thanks to AMD for actually having the agency to push forward rather than entrench.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
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What ever AMD is 'cooking up', they have to have Microsoft on board because if AMD intend to move away from x86, they will need to have an operating system because without it, no one will be interested in their CPU's.

AMD and Intel both have the money, the expertise and hardware to design and build what ever power efficent chip they want but it will need an OS meaning they need Microsoft to be interested.
You seem to have forgotten about Linux.
 
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ADGrant

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This is my belief. AMD is gunning for datacenter & HPC. They aren't going after Intel, they are going after Nvidia, Qualcomm and Samsung.

Ultimately, they will probably try to jump into the mobile market. There are far more SoC unit sales for smartphones than desktop/consumer computers.

Apple was only able to create the M1 SoCs because of their expansive mobile presence.
I agree that AMD is focusing on the datacenter/cloud market. However, they are most certainly going after Intel because going after Intel is what they do in their CPU division. Their GPU division will be going after Nvidia of course but I think they will leave the mobile market to Qualcomm and Samsung at least initially.
 

MBAir2010

macrumors 604
May 30, 2018
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Seeing what Apple did, not just strictly performance wise but compatibility, illustrates how far MS has to go to improve windows 10 ARM. I get that its a totally different issue, give that Apple controls both the hardware and software but the point remains macOS on ARM is a better more polished product then windows on ARM
The full blast 20 hour battery life on the new MacBook Pro M1 are going to spark developers and manufactures to match this most for pride rather than importance that we need in a notebook in the future. Hopefully the other processor manufactures dont over power their chips were they destroy a laptop over this feature.
 

SteveJUAE

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Aug 14, 2015
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The full blast 20 hour battery life on the new MacBook Pro M1 are going to spark developers and manufactures to match this most for pride rather than importance that we need in a notebook in the future. Hopefully the other processor manufactures dont over power their chips were they destroy a laptop over this feature.
Apple have only just caught up with Samsung in terms of arm powered laptops, battery endurance of ~20 hours that's been round best part of a year now with the Samsung W10 Powered Book S, however Apple MBP have excelled in also including performance

So endurance is not the issue its grunt connectivity/interface that's the battle ground :)

Apple have the lead on CPU grunt but MS and others are ahead on connectivity/interface
 

cmaier

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The rumors I heard (sorry no links) seem to indicate that AMD is moving to have ram on the same silicon on the cores, much like what Apple did. That would probably bring their chips up to parity with performance (I'm guessing). Apple still holds the lead on battery life.

AMD seems to be a bit more nimble and quicker to respond to market conditions then Intel, and while Intel does have some interesting stuff in their pipeline, I don't think its anything that could compete with Apple's Mx chips.

As for Windows, I gotta believe MS is looking to better improve their windows on ARM offering but so far its rather lacking. I don't see them rolling out an ARM based windows version that would equal their X86 windows version in terms of functionality or performance.
Apple doesn’t have RAM on the same silicon as the cores.
 

Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
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The rumors I heard (sorry no links) seem to indicate that AMD is moving to have ram on the same silicon on the cores, much like what Apple did. That would probably bring their chips up to parity with performance (I'm guessing). Apple still holds the lead on battery life.

AMD seems to be a bit more nimble and quicker to respond to market conditions then Intel, and while Intel does have some interesting stuff in their pipeline, I don't think its anything that could compete with Apple's Mx chips.

As for Windows, I gotta believe MS is looking to better improve their windows on ARM offering but so far its rather lacking. I don't see them rolling out an ARM based windows version that would equal their X86 windows version in terms of functionality or performance.

I don't know. Microsoft never seems to be fully committed to ARM. I mean they had Microsoft Surface RT since like 2012. That is about 8 years since Microsoft first attempt to promote Windows on ARM.

8 years later, Microsoft only brought x64 emulation to Windows on ARM.

I don't seem how ARM based Mac would suddenly replacing Windows as dominate desktop operating system. And I don't see how Microsoft will suddenly fully committed to transitioning x86 to ARM. I mean as long as Microsoft still offering x86 support, you won't see developer suddenly jump on board for developing ARM application for Windows. There is just no point.

I mean yeah, currently M1 is impressive for what it is. But for people who need real power, M1 is still not cutting it. There is no way M1 going to match performance of multi-socket xeon or AMD thread-ripper combined with Nvidia's Quadro line graphic cards...
 
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