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Anand details Sandforce instability: All products effected

handheldgames

handheldgames

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Apr 4, 2009
1,943
1,171
Pacific NW, USA
Whilst searching for a FAST, CHEAP & RELIABLE SSD for my Mac Pro, I quickly came to the conclusion that these days you can pick 2 of the above options...

Intel 510 series: FAST & RELIABLE - far from cheap
Samsung 470 series: RELIABLE & CHEAP - fast, just not SATA III
Sandforce OCZ/OWC/etc: FAST & CHEAP - far from reliable

In this recent review @ Anandtech, the 1st page details the issue: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4341/ocz-vertex-3-max-iops-patriot-wildfire-ssds-reviewed

If your considering a SSD or have a sandforce based product, the 1st page of the article and 10 pages of comments are worth a read!
 
As I understand it only SATA 6Gbit/s drives with SandForce chipsets are affected. Is that right?
I haven't had any problems with my Vertex 2 (SATA II) – at least none that I noticed.
 
daneoni said:
Yup. Corsair have already done a recall too.
Click to expand...

Only on 120GB drives IIRC.

flatfoot said:
As I understand it only SATA 6Gbit/s drives with SandForce chipsets are affected. Is that right?
I haven't had any problems with my Vertex 2 (SATA II) – at least none that I noticed.
Click to expand...

SF-1200 based SSDs suffered from their share of issues but I don't think they were anything like SF-2200 based SSDs (there weren't BSODs and stuff). SF-1200 based SSDs suffered from hibernation issues in OS X though.
 
But how do we reach accurate reliability numbers?

For example, even the Intel 510 series, exalted for reliability, has 7% 1-star feedback on Newegg with tales of DOAs and sudden failures.

I'm not trying to say 7% of Newegg-sold Intel 510 drives fail; I know far more people will post their problems than their lack of problems.

However, I think it's reasonable to compare against other models. For example, Intel X25 has about 3% 1-star feedback on the same site (and half of those complaints are about a rebate they never got, so it's really more like 1.5%). This is far from scientific, but it at least implies that X25 is much more reliable than 510.

OCZ Vertex 2 and Vertex 3 respectively have 21% and 16% 1-star reviews. Ouch!

Not that it matters in the big picture, but I have two OCZ II-series drives and one IBM X25-series drive. All have worked flawlessly, and I use sleep mode frequently (but never hibernation).
 
ActionableMango said:
But how do we reach accurate reliability numbers?

For example, even the Intel 510 series, exalted for reliability, has 7% 1-star feedback on Newegg with tales of DOAs and sudden failures.

I'm not trying to say 7% of Newegg-sold Intel 510 drives fail; I know far more people will post their problems than their lack of problems.

However, I think it's reasonable to compare against other models. For example, Intel X25 has about 3% 1-star feedback on the same site (and half of those complaints are about a rebate they never got, so it's really more like 1.5%). This is far from scientific, but it at least implies that X25 is much more reliable than 510.

OCZ Vertex 2 and Vertex 3 respectively have 21% and 16% 1-star reviews. Ouch!

Not that it matters in the big picture, but I have two OCZ II-series drives and one IBM X25-series drive. All have worked flawlessly, and I use sleep mode frequently (but never hibernation).
Click to expand...

Intel 510 Series doesn't use Intel controller like X25-M and 320 Series do. It's made by Marvell and the same controller can be found inside Micron C400 and Crucial m4. I think it is usually the controller that is bad if the SSD is DOA or fails within few weeks of use, so that might explain the higher failure rate of 510 Series.
 
From what Anand details, the issue is across all the products & manufacturers not just the latest SF 2xxx series controller. Dramatically slowing the Transfer rates MAY negate the issue. Leaving you with a drive that's not as fast, still not reliable and cheap.
 
That slower 2.09 OCZ firmware is only for their Vertex 3 family - it is not for the Vertex 2 drives at all. Those of us who have Vertex 2 drives that are working well do not need this FW (and in fact cannot install it anyway).
 
OWC SSDs ARE Reliable

handheldgames said:
Whilst searching for a FAST, CHEAP & RELIABLE SSD for my Mac Pro, I quickly came to the conclusion that these days you can pick 2 of the above options...

Intel 510 series: FAST & RELIABLE - far from cheap
Samsung 470 series: RELIABLE & CHEAP - fast, just not SATA III
Sandforce OCZ/OWC/etc: FAST & CHEAP - far from reliable

In this recent review @ Anandtech, the 1st page details the issue: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4341/ocz-vertex-3-max-iops-patriot-wildfire-ssds-reviewed

If your considering a SSD or have a sandforce based product, the 1st page of the article and 10 pages of comments are worth a read!
Click to expand...

Your conclusion is inaccurate with respect to OWC because OWC SSD's are not experiencing any BSOD, have not been associated with in any forum/article/post/etc., are not under any kind of recall unlike other brands, nor do they require special firmware to address BSOD (which incidentally that firmware didn't fix said issues for other brands and in fact slowed them down). I'd suggest you all read perhaps another site's review of our 6G SSD where we are proclaimed to be the fastest SATA 3.0 SSD on the market:

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1635/1/
 
OWC Grant said:
Your conclusion is inaccurate with respect to OWC because OWC SSD's are not experiencing any BSOD, have not been associated with in any forum/article/post/etc., are not under any kind of recall unlike other brands, nor do they require special firmware to address BSOD (which incidentally that firmware didn't fix said issues for other brands and in fact slowed them down). I'd suggest you all read perhaps another site's review of our 6G SSD where we are proclaimed to be the fastest SATA 3.0 SSD on the market:

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1635/1/
Click to expand...

yeah but grant owc has a blog spot on the sata III ssd not working with the macbookpro 17 inch. has this been fixed
 
OWC is Not Apple ;-)

philipma1957 said:
yeah but grant owc has a blog spot on the sata III ssd not working with the macbookpro 17 inch. has this been fixed
Click to expand...

Well...we very well cannot fix what is an Apple hardware problem...;)

ANY brand 6G SSD is experiencing issues in the 2011 17" MBP...and it's a random thing....some of the original machines work, some don't. Some newly sold ones do, some don't. It's like a lottery even with the optical bay...some lucky ones get a 6G interface there too!

Heck, even our Shielding Kit has mixed success in resolving this issue.

This is why we were the first to intro a 30 Day Money Back Guarantee on a SSD...because this issue is so random, why should "early adopter" consumers be punished?

But to be fair here, Apple has not promoted, listed, publicized, etc. ANY 6G capability of these machines....so can't really hold against them.

If you want to learn more about this issue, and read all the comments, visit

http://blog.macsales.com/10433-macbook-pro-2011-models-and-sata-3-0-6-0gbs-update-5272011
 
Guess I'll find out. Sample size 1 for me, my first purchased SSD drive.

The OWC 240GB 3G drive. My 2008 Mac Pro doesn't support faster.

I had a small issue where things didn't line up with the 2.5" to 3.5" adapter I bought with it for use in one of my bays. Bent the adapter, had to loosen the screws so it could plug in.

Last night I installed it and used Carbon Copy to dupe my 340GB drive to this drive (124GB used). Sure seemed fast when I booted off of it this morning. Normally I have disk thrashing for a couple minutes while programs start up.
 
OWC Grant said:
Your conclusion is inaccurate with respect to OWC because OWC SSD's are not experiencing any BSOD, have not been associated with in any forum/article/post/etc., are not under any kind of recall unlike other brands, nor do they require special firmware to address BSOD (which incidentally that firmware didn't fix said issues for other brands and in fact slowed them down ). I'd suggest you all read perhaps another site's review of our 6G SSD where we are proclaimed to be the fastest SATA 3.0 SSD on the market:

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1635/1/
Click to expand...

Fast is good.. I'll take reliable each and every time. No need to enter a race if I can't get all of my data over the finish line every time.

There are plenty of users out there with MBP's who are experiencing issues with SF 1X series and 2X series drives from OCZ, OWC, etc... Not just the 6G drives or the 2011 MBP(which appears to be a problem with the internal cable not supporting 6G speeds: http://communities.intel.com/thread/20352?start=60&tstart=0 ) Just head over the MR MBP forum and take a read. I guess firmware 3.08 was supposed to fix some of OWC's lockups... Honestly... how is it holding up?

Here is a quick google @ MR for: OWC SSD Fail

http://www.google.com/search?client...c.r_pw.&fp=2f4d54d3f27653ca&biw=1317&bih=1250

Regarding the SSD review jockey's out there.. I'll take real-world, end-user feedback every time. There is a difference in perspective in people who get free product sent across VS those who spend hard earned cash on their product. Those who get free product tend to have a skewed perspective and are not putting their trusted data at risk.

Those who loose their data... Call out & bring attention to what appears to be a real problem have the most credibility.

On 6/5/11 - A MR member wrote "My OWC SSD failed 2 weeks ago, and is on its' way back to their company office. I'm pretty pissed off to be honest."
 
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OWC Grant said:
Well...we very well cannot fix what is an Apple hardware problem...;)

ANY brand 6G SSD is experiencing issues in the 2011 17" MBP...and it's a random thing....some of the original machines work, some don't. Some newly sold ones do, some don't. It's like a lottery even with the optical bay...some lucky ones get a 6G interface there too!

Heck, even our Shielding Kit has mixed success in resolving this issue.

This is why we were the first to intro a 30 Day Money Back Guarantee on a SSD...because this issue is so random, why should "early adopter" consumers be punished?

But to be fair here, Apple has not promoted, listed, publicized, etc. ANY 6G capability of these machines....so can't really hold against them.

If you want to learn more about this issue, and read all the comments, visit

http://blog.macsales.com/10433-macbook-pro-2011-models-and-sata-3-0-6-0gbs-update-5272011
Click to expand...

fair enough . I have used and owned about 35 ssd's. some for a week some for a year or more. I souped up a lot of mac minis for buyers friends and self. It is very frustrating to have ssd's die.. To be fair I have owned;

vertex 3 purchased 2 good 1 bad
patriot 3 purchased 2 good 1 bad
corsair 3 purchased 2 good 1 bad
intel x-18 m 80gb 10 good 0 bad
intel x-25 m 160gb 6 good 0 bad
intel x-25 e 32gb 4 good 0 bad
intel x-25 e 64gb 2 good 0 bad
intel series 320 300 gb 1 good 0 bad
intel series 320 600gb 4 good 0 bad

Not having not owned your models it would not be fair to say I don't like them. I am afraid of just about any ssd on the market except intel. I am also afraid of intel's 510 models so I am left with intel series 320 300gb or 600gb as fairly fast but very safe. Since I have not used one (series 320) for more the 60 days I have it backed up and I am hopeful. I do lots of build for all kinds of people . A lot of ssds have failed fail in less then 2 months other then the intels. alot more then hdds (one exception was seagates 2.5 inch 500gb 7200 rpm drive 8 bad for 14). I guess I am voicing frustration that a great idea like an ssd is still not quite ready for prime time.

BTW I use your company from time to time and you have very good service and some nice products. QX2 and maximus mini have been very nice gear for me> I know that down the road I will test out a few of your ssds. I have some t-bolt ideas and a few people want me to do some builds when they come out.
 
No issues with my OWC 240GB 6G's. All purring nicely. And a 5 year warranty if they blow up. So what? I'm a pro and I backup frequently and I have like 16 other HDD's to use in their absence. But seriously, no issues with OWC. Maybe it's the extra 20-30 dollars I paid for it over the competition:rolleyes:
 
Well, here we have listed all the reasons why I chose the intel 320 for myself after a long think about it. I'm glad I did and thanks for the confirmations!
 
I to have not had a problem with my OWC SSD 115GB 3G. Have had it for more than 6 months and loving it. It was highly recommended by many on the internet. With any product that is mass produced you will always have bad ones. Lemons if you will, you just take those lemons and make you some lemonade, or send them back for replacement. Also I work in a computer repair store, we are always seeing Drives fail, mainly HDD. Thats why I always say keep the important stuff on a external that you only use to backup because the one time you dont will be the one time the drive fails.
 
cjgonzales1900 said:
I to have not had a problem with my OWC SSD 115GB 3G. Have had it for more than 6 months and loving it. It was highly recommended by many on the internet. With any product that is mass produced you will always have bad ones. Lemons if you will, you just take those lemons and make you some lemonade, or send them back for replacement. Also I work in a computer repair store, we are always seeing Drives fail, mainly HDD. Thats why I always say keep the important stuff on a external that you only use to backup because the one time you dont will be the one time the drive fails.
Click to expand...

Personally... If you get served lemons.. Make Lemon Drops. You can sell them fro $10.00 each VS .10 for a glass of lemonade.

If you don't like lemons, well you may want to avoid SF based solutions until they can do some real QA on the level with Intel and Samsung.
 
I applied the new vertex 3 firmware which seems to fix any issues they had so far. At least it seems fine in mac os.
 
handheldgames said:
I'll take reliable each and every time.

I'll take real-world, end-user feedback every time.
Click to expand...

Sometimes those two are mutually exclusive, just as they are with reviewers who know what they're doing and *may* have a bias.

handheldgames said:
There is a difference in perspective in people who get free product sent across VS those who spend hard earned cash on their product. Those who get free product tend to have a skewed perspective and are not putting their trusted data at risk.
Click to expand...

Agreed, though I'd alter the statement to be "there MAY be a difference in perspective...."

handheldgames said:
Those who loose their data... Call out & bring attention to what appears to be a real problem have the most credibility.

On 6/5/11 - A MR member wrote "My OWC SSD failed 2 weeks ago, and is on its' way back to their company office. I'm pretty pissed off to be honest."
Click to expand...

Agreed, but therein lies the tradeoff for real world feedback. Poor details. That particular quote offers nothing but a mountain of variables that could have accounted for his poor experience, including the dreaded "Operator Error." Granted you cherry-picked just that one to quote, and there are others, but that's an example of why professional reviews by people with greater knowledge, resources, time, and the ability to communicate results, are still valuable.. and in many cases, moreso.

I'm leery of SF-based drives too, though.
 
Fix your thread title. In addition to misusing "effected" instead of "affected," the phrase "all products" is misleading and inaccurate.

"One of their latest models" ≠ "all products". Those of us who bought previous generation Sandforce SSDs are just fine. We don't even suffer from hibernation issues across the board, either.
 
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