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wegster

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Nov 1, 2006
642
298
Apple seems to love to induce this recurring pattern in recent years - had my 2015 15" MBP until 2020 because while I needed an upgrade (needed > 16GB RAM and > 1TB storage), they didn't offer anything worth considering (janky keyboard, lost ports, RAM limit), then picked up a very-lightly-used upper end 2019 16" MBP 32GB 2TB, which has served me pretty well overall. I use it primarily alongside a 38" UW QHD+ display for additional real estate, and for when I need to share multiple windows in a meeting or presentation (share the 16" normal-enough aspect ratio screen vs trying to share an ultra wide screen to people not on one..) Occasionally I'll have an additional display connected as well.

There wasn't much reason to move to an M1 base model in reality, as they were limited on max RAM and weren't that much of a jump although obviously the power consumption was a huge win. Every now and then I've gone to check out Apple's latest, taken a look at benchmarks, then about choked on the +$1K to get to a 4TB SSD (vs e.g. < $300 for Samsung pro or WD black) and the memory surcharge - used to defend MBP pricing as 'reasonable enough' when really comparing to similarly equipped systems, but yeah, their storage and RAM upgrade prices are completely insane, so buying new would run me over $4K for either the 14" or 16" MBP (before AppleCare, taxes, etc.).

I actually do have an M1 MBP 13" from work, but it's just an overall failure for my work other than for occasional travel. Runs well enough, but couldn't use for primary system due to lack of storage and lack of RAM, as well as screen size and inability to connect more than a single display etc.

Long story short(er, anyways ;) ), my 2019 MBP is still doing well enough overall (no regrets on it in general) but am needing to run more VMs, including some large compiles and other jobs that start to make 64GB appealing, while of course we know Intel's end of line with Apple.

After far too many comparisons, configurations, checking ebay and elsewhere for lightly used, Apple refurb, etc. I was down to finding an M2 Pro or M1 Max initially but of course, the M2 Pro 'needed' to become an M2 Max in order to get to 64GB of RAM, so prices just kept bumping up further. No doubt M2 variants are faster, but overall the M1 Max and M2 Pro are roughly 'close enough' I don't feel too badly and found an ok deal for ~$2300 M1 Max 64GB 2TB 14" MBP with AppleCare through 2025, so to avoid 'let's just wait for M3 Pro then look at M2 Max prices' insanity, I went ahead and pulled the trigger and should have it this weekend.

TLDR:
So I'm both moving from 16" to 14" and obviously from Intel to Apple Silicon/ARM, and running a bunch of Intel-based VMs. I've got no doubt my various general productivity and other apps will be fine on the Max/ARM, and I also have some AI/ML work which will be interesting to see how well coreml performs (I know, M2 gets a decent bump here, but I've got the usual GPU servers elsewhere if/as needed).

I guess I'm more looking for - anyone have significant regrets on the move from 16" to 14", and any gotchas on the move to Apple Silicon, including the inevitable joys of needing to run Windows ARM VMs, using the ports system, etc. ?
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
Unless one loves the touch bar and/or really hates the notch, I feel like the Intel 16-inch MacBook Pro is either going to continue to be a necessity or it'll be beneficial to switch to Apple Silicon.

Personally, virtualizing x86-64 OSes is important to me. So, my Intel 16-inch MacBook Pro is there to give me what I need for virtualizing older Intel macOS releases while acting as a secondary system for virtualizing x86-64 Windows and Linux versions (for the latter two, it'll very quickly become a better idea to do this on one of my Windows machines).

Obviously, an Intel 16-inch MacBook Pro is going to have a limited usefulness lifespan as Apple will eventually stop releasing software updates for it and my x86-64 specific needs will eventually have to move to PCs. But for the time being, I do believe that particular MacBook Pro still has merit in 2023. Though, it's only one of five possible Intel Macs that I believe truly have this kind of merit (two of the other four being the 2019 iMacs, one of them being the 2020 27-inch iMac, and one of them being the 2019 Mac Pro).
 

wegster

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Nov 1, 2006
642
298
Unless one loves the touch bar

Lol - does anyone? :D I'm sure there are some that like it, and it's probably useful for scrolling through video frames, but I write it off as part of the Ives era - make things more difficult like no physical ESC key(!!), thinner and remove all ports, etc.

The rest of your comment is part of what I'm struggling with - in my current role, I'm not writing or compiling code daily, and a lot is more portable, but there's still some low level C/ASM code that's x86 specific. Right now, there is also am ARM specific version, so it's kind of 'maybe ok to some extent' but I may wind up in the same spot - try to use the M1 Max for 'most' things, but keep the Intel MBP around for the inevitable cases I need native x86.

Thanks - I still don't know just how much it'll impact me, but nice to know I'm not the only one running into 'some problems are expected'... in this case I can probably get by until I can't, cross-compile but will have to maintain some x86 system or VM for some tests - I guess it might as well be my 2019 MBP.

What's sort of amusing is now MS has copied the Rosetta route and Windows ARM apparently can run x86 binaries, while Rosetta 2 can run x86/64 MacOS binaries - but we can't get the next step to run virtual x86-64-based VMs, which even if slower, should help a fair amount...
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
Lol - does anyone? :D I'm sure there are some that like it, and it's probably useful for scrolling through video frames, but I write it off as part of the Ives era - make things more difficult like no physical ESC key(!!), thinner and remove all ports, etc.

The version of the Touch Bar without the ESC key was problematic for the lack of that physical key. Though, the fact that all machines with that version of Touch Bar are paired with the butterfly keyboard also doesn't help whatsoever.

Once the physical escape key returned (on 2019 16-inch MacBook Pro and 2020/2022 13-inch MacBook Pros), it became viable; though, by then, it was too late. Personally, I like the physical escape key version of it. But I also recognize that Apple totally botched any chance of it seriously being adopted and that it's basically a lame duck feature.

The rest of your comment is part of what I'm struggling with - in my current role, I'm not writing or compiling code daily, and a lot is more portable, but there's still some low level C/ASM code that's x86 specific. Right now, there is also am ARM specific version, so it's kind of 'maybe ok to some extent' but I may wind up in the same spot - try to use the M1 Max for 'most' things, but keep the Intel MBP around for the inevitable cases I need native x86.

I'm basically doing something similar. I have my M1 13-inch MacBook Pro which is my main Mac. The 2019 16-inch is there to help ween me off of using an Intel Mac for things that I will eventually have to use on either a PC or an Apple Silicon Mac (i.e. Games written for x86/x86-64 and x86/x86-64 virtualization/Boot Camp). I'm not oblivious to the future wherein the final flagship Intel MacBook Pro is the wrong machine to use (hell, that time is probably already here). But, for now, it's a nice safety blanket.

Thanks - I still don't know just how much it'll impact me, but nice to know I'm not the only one running into 'some problems are expected'... in this case I can probably get by until I can't, cross-compile but will have to maintain some x86 system or VM for some tests - I guess it might as well be my 2019 MBP.

Yeah, I'd say it's still a good machine and there are always going to be those things that either require an Intel Mac or an x86-64 PC (whether with Intel or AMD under the hood).

What's sort of amusing is now MS has copied the Rosetta route and Windows ARM apparently can run x86 binaries, while Rosetta 2 can run x86/64 MacOS binaries - but we can't get the next step to run virtual x86-64-based VMs, which even if slower, should help a fair amount...
Microsoft HAD to enable the use of x86/x86-64 binaries to run on Windows for ARM64 or else no one would buy those machines. Incidentally, from what I've heard, 32-bit x86 apps run like crap on Windows for ARM64 whereas 64-bit ones don't. Though, it's been a while since I last checked it out and I honestly should get my hands on an ARM64 Windows machine to see how that experience is firsthand.
 
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wegster

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Nov 1, 2006
642
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Yeah, I don't 'hate' the Touch Bar nearly as much since the physical ESC key came back - I don't use it much, but it's not a problem either like it was before bringing back the ESC key. I remain curious as to why they did that vs a mini-LED or OLED trackpad that could also accept open input, but ... ... who knows..

I'm doing what I probably should have done before picking up the M1 Max, doing a 'dry run' of sorts on my underpowered M1 Pro from work.

Windows 11 ARM installation has some gyrations to jump through due to limited retail channels, at least if using VMware Fusion - I've been using VMWare since their ~Y2K beta program and was on the Fusion beta, used to build our VM library for work etc., so I'm kind of locked into VMWare, although for normal users Parallels does make it 'hands off and click the buttons.' I was able to get it working but it's fairly detailed, downloading numerous bits of then basically hydrate and rip an ISO, and THEN found out there's an 'unofficial guide for Windows 11 on Fusion 13' - along with a single script (vs numerous downloads/searching for some various bits) that is very well done and does make things significantly easier. At least until we get proper retail ISOs for Windows 11 ARM, it’s worth searching the vmware community site for the latest guide for most.

vmware tools seem to have some issues. I think there are some issues on file sharing from the host, but as I just spun up both Win11 and Ubuntu LTS hosts and got derailed into resizing the Ubuntu one, I didn’t quite get to ‘done’ so will check as I do the run that counts on the new system, which should show up sometime today; will see how it goes.
 

solaris8x86

macrumors regular
Nov 24, 2007
235
64
Saturn
TLDR:
So I'm both moving from 16" to 14" and obviously from Intel to Apple Silicon/ARM, and running a bunch of Intel-based VMs. I've got no doubt my various general productivity and other apps will be fine on the Max/ARM, and I also have some AI/ML work which will be interesting to see how well coreml performs (I know, M2 gets a decent bump here, but I've got the usual GPU servers elsewhere if/as needed).

I guess I'm more looking for - anyone have significant regrets on the move from 16" to 14", and any gotchas on the move to Apple Silicon, including the inevitable joys of needing to run Windows ARM VMs, using the ports system, etc. ?

I faced the same situation. I was a Mac Pro 2010 user up to yesterday since 2010. And when it died. I still picked an used intel MacBook Pro 2019 i9 as a replacement to it from the local second hand market. Not a silicon Mac, due to intel Mac suits the need of commercial application much more than a silicon shxt Mac.

Read my feeling and story here.
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
Yeah, I don't 'hate' the Touch Bar nearly as much since the physical ESC key came back - I don't use it much, but it's not a problem either like it was before bringing back the ESC key. I remain curious as to why they did that vs a mini-LED or OLED trackpad that could also accept open input, but ... ... who knows..

I'm doing what I probably should have done before picking up the M1 Max, doing a 'dry run' of sorts on my underpowered M1 Pro from work.

Windows 11 ARM installation has some gyrations to jump through due to limited retail channels, at least if using VMware Fusion - I've been using VMWare since their ~Y2K beta program and was on the Fusion beta, used to build our VM library for work etc., so I'm kind of locked into VMWare, although for normal users Parallels does make it 'hands off and click the buttons.' I was able to get it working but it's fairly detailed, downloading numerous bits of then basically hydrate and rip an ISO, and THEN found out there's an 'unofficial guide for Windows 11 on Fusion 13' - along with a single script (vs numerous downloads/searching for some various bits) that is very well done and does make things significantly easier. At least until we get proper retail ISOs for Windows 11 ARM, it’s worth searching the vmware community site for the latest guide for most.

vmware tools seem to have some issues. I think there are some issues on file sharing from the host, but as I just spun up both Win11 and Ubuntu LTS hosts and got derailed into resizing the Ubuntu one, I didn’t quite get to ‘done’ so will check as I do the run that counts on the new system, which should show up sometime today; will see how it goes.
I've never been a Parallels fan. Each time I try to pick it up, it just frustrates me. The overly guided approach and the insistence that I run in that weird coherence mode wherein my Windows and Mac apps blend together on the dock just irk the crap out of me. I'm sure it's perfect for those not looking to do more with virtualization other than use it as the means to the ends of getting Windows only app X to run on macOS, but it's not for me.

That all said, virtualization on an Apple Silicon Mac is a sad state of affairs for anything that isn't macOS. I don't doubt that VMware Fusion will eventually get the same blessing that Parallels Desktop got for Windows 11 for ARM64; making that task of following that unofficial guide a non-issue. But, the fact that it's harder to do for the meantime than it is on an Intel Mac (or any x86-64 PC) is unfortunate. The non-server Ubuntu release only being available for ARM64 as a nightly build is lame too. Though, ARM64 versions do exist for Debian and Fedora Workstation, so there's at least that.

While virtualizing past releases of macOS for Intel is a key reason for me having an Intel 16-inch MacBook Pro, I think that virtualizing Monterey and later will be substantially better of an experience on Apple Silicon Macs. It already seems like it is when doing so on apps that use Apple's Hypervisor framework (such as VirtualBuddy). Though, I'd have to do a full comparison between doing so on VirtualBuddy vs. VMware Fusion for Intel.
 

wegster

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Nov 1, 2006
642
298
A bit more fun setting things up. Most things going ok, and the overall system until we get into VMs is fine. The notch is a huge meh - sure wish it were a bit shorter in height. I'm not entirely convinced various widgets (istats, magnet, ..) are 'notch-aware' or not.

Battery life is probably better than my hotplate/2019 16MBP, but it's nothing to write home about IMO at least under my 'normal casual-ish' use setting up my ubuntu VM, some apps open on macOS, etc. Will give it a bit as I'm sure it's probably also still indexing. Shouldn't be any real surprise I'm not going to see those '11 hours' or whatever, but can probably get 4 hours or so, maybe less during the work week - will see how the upcoming week goes.

VMs...sigh. I need to run ubuntu LTS as it's the officially supported version at work. Canonical isn't quite as bad as browsing MS Azure documentation and then trying to match up on Azure portal to buy the specific thing/configuration mentioned (lots of gaps) but I've never been a fan of their website. Nigh impossible to get 20.04 which was first choice just for 'least pain' in some areas RE: work at the moment, but we also support 22.04. I don't intentionally resource hog my systems, so tend to run lighter weight WMs like xfce. SO Ubuntu server LTS 22.04 was the start, then xfce, then found out there's no working copy/paste from host to VM (possible this is due to lightdm/xfce somehow, maybe..), and there's a bug or two in file sharing. Fixed the latter, still looking into the prior.

Win11 ARM is like a walking nonstop advertisement for Microsoft. I really wish I could have just brought over my Win10 x86-64 VM..like REALLY wish. I think it's asked me no less than 10 times now, even doing windows update if I want to get faster updates and subscribe to office365 (no and hell no), as I don't join my windows VMs to the work domain or accounts.

Meanwhile the story for full support of virtual x86 systems seems unlikely, e.g. https://communities.vmware.com/t5/F...-VMWare-Fusion-in-Macbook-Pro-M1/td-p/2907513 contains some of the reasons.

The 14" screen other than the notch isn't bad - can run in 'more space' mode and not loose too much productive space over the 16", although I haven't tried using it on my desk in the 16's position next to the main display yet - I may need to revert back to default resolution.
 

wegster

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Nov 1, 2006
642
298
Switched over around Tuesday to try to use the new-to-me MBP 14" for the work week.
Have NOT needed to spend much time in the VMs this week, and in part due to the switch from Intel to Apple Silicon/ARM, did NOT do a typical migration and effectively went with a new-from-scratch install for apps, settings, etc.

Some good and some bad, and a bit annoying.
The annoying is I've got a mixture of open source, App Store and some licensed-outside-of-appstore apps, and had to do some real dumpster diving to locate a handful of software license keys or accounts.

The bad - I use CCC/Carbon Copy Cloner to do selective backups to iCloud. Used to be to a NAS, wasted some time at one point with Time Machine before giving that up as fundamentally flawed (may be fine now, but was a nightmare to try to get working fully reliably on a at-the-time top-end NAS), occasionally to docked drives, but for the past year or two I just do incremental backups nightly to iCloud. They work fine in general, BUT - trying to copy them back over to the new system led to what I thought was a long-ago solved issue, the lovely 'copying NNN,NNN to <location> - zero bytes of 20 GB' endless loop of non-progress. :( Majority of files are smaller, but after chugging for a day, I gave up and reverted to rsync over ssh...with some still ongoing. Ironically if I had ethernet ports on both systems (or firewire, lol, for a blast from the past), this would be 10x sped up, but I gave my wife my spare dongle so I've got one tb/usb-c with ethernet dongle and not two, so - meh.

Everything else works well - I did some quick comparisons of system sensors/temps, and the M1 Max certainly runs overall cooler. I've got it plugged into 'it's normal home' on a stand next to my UW screen, with the 16" temporarily in front of me, and while I've heard the 16" fans kick in doing file xfers and relatively low effort stuff, I'm not sure I've got the MBP14's fans going outside of when I had the VMs spun up.

Looks like I've got a few x86 only apps on the system - I've got licensed copies of Balsamic Mockups and the last non-subscription version of Lightroom, which have no 'no new payments or subscriptions' version for Apple Silicon. As a long-time software engineer I'm fairly free with donations and purchasing small software here and there, to support smaller developers or teams, but Adobe can generally go kiss my ... on their cloud-only subscription pricing models. I thought Balsamiq had moved to only subscriptions but it looks like they now have a license with upgrade path, so even though I only use it occasionally, I'll probably go ahead and pay the upgrade cost then be down to just Lightroom as an x86 app.

One pleasant surprise came out of this. I've been running a single-ear Sennheisser MB Pro 1 headset for conf calls/work for ~4 years now, maybe 5. Sadly, their software sucks and when they finally came out with a Mac updater, I made the mistake of using it and it bricked the headset with it being out of warrantee, but there aren't many solid can-wear-all-day with decent noise suppression and comfort so I had to buy another. Unfortunately, we wind up often jumping across Zoom, Slack, and, sigh - Teams, for various calls and meetings, and I got into a weird pattern where I had around a 40% chance of not having working audio jumping into a call without doing a hard headset reset/power cycle, but had nothing of use in logs, and couldn't definitively pin down the culprit. Heck, it might have even been the POS EPOS/Sennheiser software causing the problems, which I refused to install this time around.

I had also never had the need to play with Universal Control, but that was kind of interesting, and depending on if I wind up keeping the Intel MBP, I might re-enable it as I use an external keyboard ( https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.io ) along with a Japanese Trackman marble clone b/c I was burning through Logitechs ('new and improved' :-/) every 6 months or so. Likewise once I'm done with all the file and config manual migration/transfers, I might put the 16" to the left of the ultra wide and use it for yet another display, and just disconnect it from the display list but use Universal control or a remote session to work on it directly.

So far pretty happy but I still need to dig into getting some things building in VMs and doing some other playing around with a few AI/ML tools... will see how it goes. Nice system overall though.
 
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