APFS or HFS+ for TimeMachine and Clone Backup HDDs?

[danqi]

I am moving from Sierra to a new Mac with Monterey and this is my first contact with APFS.

Currently, I am setting up an 18TB Western Digital HDD for TimeMachine and an 12TB WD HDD for clone backups (will be using either SupderDuper! or CarbonCopyCloner).

Which file system should I choose?

APFS would make sense, because it matches my Mac's internal format. But HFS+ seems to be better for non-SSD hard drives?

Bonus question: Should I chose the "encrypted" option or encrypt the drive later?

 

[Madhatter32]

APFS should work fine on the HDD. It's probably better to use HFS+ if you want the drive to be bootable because HFS+ will run faster on a HDD. However, on Apple Silicon bootable drives are a lot more difficult to set up these days (you need to use a work around) and it's not really necessary anyway. So, I use APFS on my external HDDs and have not experienced any issues.

 

[nosnhojm]

Time Machine to APFS uses the built in snapshot feature, which is faster and more robust. Time Machine to HFS+ uses directories and hard links, which is more prone to fragmentation.

Time Machine to APFS: Evolution

How Time Machine has changed since it appeared in 2007, and how backing up to APFS volumes is different now it’s available in Big Sur.

eclecticlight.co

 

[NoBoMac]

Believe it's no longer an option for HFS+ for new Time Machine disks, TM will erase what's there and reformat as APFS. So no choice there.

And in case of CCC, seems like they are APFS as well (I don't use, just what I read):

Preparing a disk for a backup or restore | Bombich Software

bombich.com

Choose APFS or APFS Encrypted. If you intend to create a legacy bootable backup, do not choose APFS Encrypted; rather you will encrypt your backup by enabling FileVault while booted from the backup volume.

 

[Brian33]

Which file system should I choose?

New Time Machine volumes in Monterey will always be formatted APFS by Time Machine, as @NoBoMac indicates. So no choice there (unless you try to have the new machine continue using the old machine's TM backup -- which might be possible but I wouldn't recommend.)

For CCC, you might need to use APFS if you're planning on making a "legacy bootable backup." However, Mr. Bombich doesn't recommend that type for most uses (sorry don't have the link handy). IIRC, he recommends first re-installing macOS (from Recovery or Internet Recovery) and then using Migration Assistant with the standard CCC backup.

Ah, found a quote from the link I cite below:

"If you ever need to restore everything from a non-bootable backup, you can install macOS via Recovery mode (e.g. onto a replacement disk), then migrate data from the backup via Migration Assistant. CCC backups are compatible with Migration Assistant, and we support that configuration."

Personally I've given up on making a bootable backup for my Monterey systems. Here are some reasons: (from https://bombich.com/kb/ccc6/cloning-macos-system-volumes-apple-software-restore)

• The destination may not remain bootable if you proceed to perform regular backups to the destination. This procedure [i.e., a legacy bootable backup] is not intended to be used for regular backups.
• Apple Silicon Macs will not boot at all if the internal storage fails. An external bootable device will not serve as a rescue disk for that scenario.

If you decide to make a "standard" CCC backups, I see no advantage to using APFS for the destination format on an HDD. In addition, I think there are two (admittedly small) reasons for using HFS+: (1) it's possible that an APFS file system bug could arise that doesn't occur in HFS+ and (2) there are tools like DiskWarrior to deal with accidental erasure or partial corruption on HFS+ drives, but no such tools exist for APFS.

So I say, with one backup on APFS (TM) and one on HFS+ (CCC) you're protected against a greater number of possible disaster scenarios.

This is also why I use both TM and CCC -- not only do they have different strengths and weaknesses, but it is possible something could go wrong with the backup software itself that renders a backup unusable. (IMHO this is more likely to happen to TM than to CCC, but still, it's possible.) So I think you're wise to use both TM and CCC (or SuperDuper!).

Sorry if it seems like I'm "talking your ear off!" Good luck!

 

[danqi]

New Time Machine volumes in Monterey will always be formatted APFS by Time Machine, as @NoBoMac indicates. So no choice there (unless you try to have the new machine continue using the old machine's TM backup -- which might be possible but I wouldn't recommend.)

For CCC, you might need to use APFS if you're planning on making a "legacy bootable backup." However, Mr. Bombich doesn't recommend that type for most uses (sorry don't have the link handy). IIRC, he recommends first re-installing macOS (from Recovery or Internet Recovery) and then using Migration Assistant with the standard CCC backup.

Ah, found a quote from the link I cite below:


Personally I've given up on making a bootable backup for my Monterey systems. Here are some reasons: (from https://bombich.com/kb/ccc6/cloning-macos-system-volumes-apple-software-restore)



If you decide to make a "standard" CCC backups, I see no advantage to using APFS for the destination format on an HDD. In addition, I think there are two (admittedly small) reasons for using HFS+: (1) it's possible that an APFS file system bug could arise that doesn't occur in HFS+ and (2) there are tools like DiskWarrior to deal with accidental erasure or partial corruption on HFS+ drives, but no such tools exist for APFS.

So I say, with one backup on APFS (TM) and one on HFS+ (CCC) you're protected against a greater number of possible disaster scenarios.

This is also why I use both TM and CCC -- not only do they have different strengths and weaknesses, but it is possible something could go wrong with the backup software itself that renders a backup unusable. (IMHO this is more likely to happen to TM than to CCC, but still, it's possible.) So I think you're wise to use both TM and CCC (or SuperDuper!).

Sorry if it seems like I'm "talking your ear off!" Good luck!

Wow, thank you so much for that comprehensive reply! And thanks to everyone else as well!
Will do it like that.
Now, I just have to decide between CCC and SuperDuper!....

 

[sgtaylor5]

as far as I know, SuperDuper! can still make a bootable backup of a Monterey system using asr in the background, and boy, is it fast!

I will find out when my 256 GB Apple-branded SSD comes in the mail today, so I can clone my existing 128 GB system from the bootable backup disk to the new SSD and then setup a BootCamp installation of Windows 10 on the other half for a job on Monday.

 

[gilby101]

Is there any point in having a bootable clone backup on a new M1/M2 Mac? There doesn't seem to be many scenarios where it could be used. The onboard SSD is required for booting, so a hardware failure of the SSD will prevent a clone from booting. A corruption of the on board data volume will get cloned to the external SSD, so again the clone won't boot if the on board SSD won't.

as far as I know, SuperDuper! can still make a bootable backup of a Monterey system using asr in the background, and boy, is it fast!

Can you confirm that on a new Mac?

(1) it's possible that an APFS file system bug could arise that doesn't occur in HFS+ and (2) there are tools like DiskWarrior to deal with accidental erasure or partial corruption on HFS+ drives, but no such tools exist for APFS.

Except that Apple have essentially stopped support for HFS+. They are very unlikely to fix any bugs. And does APFS have issues that could be fixed by Disk Warrior type software?

This is also why I use both TM and CCC

Apart from the GUI, there doesn't seem to be any difference between what CCC and TM do. Both use APFS snapshots on both source and destination. For both, restoration requires booting to recovery, installing macOS and using Migration Assistant to copy data and system state. For both, individual files/folders can be restored using Finder.

I have a CCC licence, but haver stopped using it as TM works so well. Nothing wrong with CCC, just seems unnecessary. For a second backup it is more important to have an off site backup (most likely in the cloud) as that mitigates a wider set of risks.

 

[sgtaylor5]

Is there any point in having a bootable clone backup on a new M1/M2 Mac? There doesn't seem to be many scenarios where it could be used. The onboard SSD is required for booting, so a hardware failure of the SSD will prevent a clone from booting. A corruption of the on board data volume will get cloned to the external SSD, so again the clone won't boot if the on board SSD won't.


Can you confirm that on a new Mac?

Except that Apple have essentially stopped support for HFS+. They are very unlikely to fix any bugs. And does APFS have issues that could be fixed by Disk Warrior type software?

Apart from the GUI, there doesn't seem to be any difference between what CCC and TM do. Both use APFS snapshots on both source and destination. For both, restoration requires booting to recovery, installing macOS and using Migration Assistant to copy data and system state. For both, individual files/folders can be restored using Finder.

I have a CCC licence, but haver stopped using it as TM works so well. Nothing wrong with CCC, just seems unnecessary. For a second backup it is more important to have an off site backup (most likely in the cloud) as that mitigates a wider set of risks.

I can't confirm if a bootable backup works on an Mx Mac, as I don't own one and probably won't for the foreseeable future. I need BootCamp Windows (installed to physical Intel hardware), because I need to interact with external Windows disks and other random hardware when I'm in the field. Otherwise, my needs don't require that kind of power.

Apple isn't forthcoming in writing, let alone releasing, the kind of deep technical information needed for ANYONE to write APFS disk recovery software; Disk Utility is what we've got, and that is all we're ever going to get.

 

[OldMac/SE30]

I have an ZenWiFi AX (XT8) router and a Mac that have MacOS 12.5.1. I have an external hard disk from Seagate, and I have formatted the disk with Mac OS Extended (Journaled): It uses the Mac format (Journaled HFS Plus).

The Asus router works best with Time Machine if the disk is in the format HFS+. The ASUS router does not support the APFS format. "Disk format supported by ASUS router are: EXT2, EXT3, NTFS and HFS+ (HFS+ is recommended), please make sure your disk format is available."

"Brian33 said:
New Time Machine volumes in Monterey will always be formatted APFS by Time Machine,"

"So the problem is that, for a new external HDD, Time Machine requires an APFS formatted volume, and APFS volumes cannot be used for Time Machine and user data. This is a change from earlier versions of Mac OS that supported only HFS+ for Time Machine backups and explains why Mac OS lets you store both data and Time Machine backups on the old HDD: it's not APFS formatted." See: https://apple.stackexchange.com/que...rnal-hdd-for-both-time-machine-and-other-data

Is there any work around for this problem or does it mean I can't use the Time Machine function, built in the Asus router?

 

[Brian33]

"Brian33 said:
New Time Machine volumes in Monterey will always be formatted APFS by Time Machine,"

Actually, what I said is only exactly true if the drive is directly attached to the Mac being backed up.

If Time Machine is backing up to a network-attached drive (e.g., Time Capsule, another Mac, a NAS, or a router) then the drive can be formatted HFS+ (or, actually, any filesystem the host device understands). The reason is that in this case the SMB protocol is being used and TM itself never sees the actual native filesystem. What TM will do is create a APFS-formatted disk image on the networked drive and then backs up to that APFS disk image.

Is there any work around for this problem or does it mean I can't use the Time Machine function, built in the Asus router?

I actually have a Monterey machine that backs up over WiFi to an HFS+ disk attached to my 2012 Mac Mini (running High Sierra). It works. So I think you should be able to use the Asus router and HDD in HFS+. Sorry for misleading you!

 

[OldMac/SE30]

Thanks, for a swift reply.