Apple Devices Forget WiFi Password

[Buadhai]

At my 50 square meter condo I have a single Deco X20 router along with a handful of Apple devices, a "smart" Samsung TV and a couple of Raspberry Pies. Every device is within 4 meters and in line of sight with the router.

Every once in a while one or more of the Apple devices will fall off the network and forget the password requiring manual entry to reconnect. This never happens with the Pies or the TV.

At home I have an identical X20 router, a dozen or more Apple devices, two smart TVs and a couple of Pies. This problem never happens at home even though some devices are far (10 meters) from the router and behind a couple of brick walls.

A couple of questions:

• Why do Apple devices, and only Apple devices fall off the network?
• Why do the Apple devices require manual password entry even though the password is stored in the iCloud Keychain?

I’m sure there is a rational explanation for all this. I just can’t think of what it might be.

[In the photo you can see the router indicated by the arrow, my wife's MBA on her desk. Her MBA and my iPad (which took the photo) simultaneously lost the WiFi connection and both of us had to manually enter the password.]

 

[DarkPremiumCho]

Do these X20 routers broadcast the same SSID? Are devices in the condo and at home under the same iCloud account?

 

[Buadhai]

Do these X20 routers broadcast the same SSID? Are devices in the condo and at home under the same iCloud account?

Different SSIDs.

All of the Apple devices in both places are under either my wife's or my iCloud account. Mine include an Apple TV and an old MacBook which stay at the condo and an iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch which travel. All of my wife’s devices travel: MBA, iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch. At home my wife has an iMac which stays there. I have an old iMac, two Apple TVs and a new MBA all of which stay at home.

 

[Buadhai]

Let me describe another instance of this happening. I was using the old MacBook to log on to one of the Pies via SSH. I had just typed in a shutdown command (sudo shutdown -h now) for the Pi when the MacBook dropped off the network. I had to re-enter the WiFi password. Rebooting the Pi failed. Apparently the network dropout hosed the Pi's SD card. Fortunately I had a backup of the SD card. It seems like this just shouldn’t happen.

 

[hwojtek]

ARe both X20s configured identically and on the same firmware level?

I had just typed in a shutdown command (sudo shutdown -h now) for the Pi when the MacBook dropped off the network. I had to re-enter the WiFi password. Rebooting the Pi failed. Apparently the network dropout hosed the Pi's SD card. Fortunately I had a backup of the SD card. It seems like this just shouldn’t happen.

This is not possible. A network dropout on a guest computer does not do anything with the host while SSH. The guest simply gets disconnected. Funnily enough, if you reconnect quickly enough to the wifi and then to the host, you may land in the exactly same place you were before (provided other SSH settings allow). Your Macbook getting off the network has nothing to do with the failed Pi reboot and card corruption.

 

[Buadhai]

ARe both X20s configured identically and on the same firmware level?

Yes.

Here’s what I think happened to the Pi: I tried to shut down the Pi because I needed to move the power supply to a different outlet. The MacBook lost the network before the shutdown command was sent. I mistakenly thought the Pi had shut down. It probably hadn’t. Unplugging the power supply came at an unfortunate instant which resulted in the SD card corruption.

Any other possibility?

 

[hwojtek]

Yes.

OK. Different wifi names, yes? And they do have different MAC addresses?
What I'd do:
- remove the relevant entries from keychain (using Keychain Access, I assume they are in the iCloud keychain), while all the Apple devices that connect to the network in question are on a different network (so iCloud will sync the deletion and no Apple device will have the password in it's copy of the iCloud keychain.
- remove ("forget") the network in question from Network preference pane and/or network preferences on iOS devices.
- back at the condo - connect to the network on a single machine, remember password. Should go automatically from there.

I tried to shut down the Pi because I needed to move the power supply to a different outlet. The MacBook lost the network before the shutdown command was sent. I mistakenly thought the Pi had shut down. It probably hadn’t. Unplugging the power supply came at an unfortunate instant which resulted in the SD card corruption.

Oooh, OK, but that's a totally different story. It's not losing wifi on the Macbook that corrupted the card, it's premature powerdown, so user action. Would've happened without the Macbook losing wifi as well if you just yanked the power cable out of the Pi.
The terminal will give different outputs depending on the disconnection type. Here is a remote session where I disconnected the wifi right after login, waited 10 seconds, connected again, pressed enter a couple of times:

As you can see, SSH maintained the connection, even though I disabled wifi right after logging in, waited 10 seconds. I was able to cleanly exit the session. In your scenario it would probably look similar if you reconnected the wifi.

Here is rebooting, though. Note the difference of "connection closed by remote host". This is the indication the halt/reboot has started.
Bottom line: just a small prompt, but it would make all the difference if you spotted it But this is all aside, as this wifi password thing is much more urgent.

 

[Buadhai]

Wow.

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain, well, everything in such a clear and comprehensive way. I’m always happy to learn something.

I’m sure you’re right about the Pi. I did t pay enough attention to the disconnection message and failed to verify that the Pi had actually shut down. Next time.

I understand your suggestion on fixing the keychain issue. I will go back home tomorrow and then delete the condo router entry and verify that it is gone.

When I’m back at the condo next month I’ll first remove the network from iOS devices and then connect from a single device and remember the password.

I’ll post the results here.

By way of thanks for your help I made a donation.

#STANDWITHUKRAINE

 

[hwojtek]

By way of thanks for your help I made a donation.

Truly noble. Thank you!

 

[Buadhai]

This is now becoming an odd mystery. We drove home yesterday. I'm sitting at my iMac and my wife shows me her MBA which is asking for a WiFi password. This is the same home SSID and PW that we've used for years. Since she's never had to manually enter the password, she has no idea what it is.

On my iMac screen I'm asked if I want to share the PW with her. Before thinking (I should have checked her keychain first) I agree and she's logged in. I then looked at her keychain and saw two identical entries for this SSID both with the same modification date which was when I shared the password with her MBA.

An hour or so later we're sitting together outside when she picked up her iPad. It also wanted a password for the wireless network even though I had earlier confirmed that the SSID/PW are in her keychain. My iPad offered to share, as did her iPhone. So, she shared the PW from her own iPhone to her own iPad.

So, it appears that somehow SSID passwords are suddenly being dropped from both her keychain and mine. But not on all devices. I lost the condo PW on both my iPad and old MacBook, but she lost the condo PW on only her MBA. She lost the home PW on both her iPad and MBA but no her iPhone. I lost the home PW on none of my devices.

I find this to be quite troubling.

 

[ToniCH]

This is now becoming an odd mystery.

Hi, did you manage to fix this problem?

For some time my wifes Mac Mini has had the same problem. Few times a week it suddenly drops out of the wifi and then asks for the wifi password which has to be manually entered. So, it never remembers it. We have plenty of devices and this is the only one that does it.

Haven't really tried to troubleshoot it yet but its beginning to annoy me. Its a Mini Server 2012 with Catalina, our router is Asus RT-AC87U (AC2400).

 

[Buadhai]

Hi, did you manage to fix this problem?

I did not. In spite of all efforts, it persists. My wife’s devices are more seriously affected than mine. It only happens with the Deco 20 routers. It doesn’t happen at my wife’s office where she has a Huawei router. It doesn’t happen at public WiFi spots where the SSID/password are stored in the keychain.

It’s very frustrating.

is it the fault of the keychain, the routers, or some bizarre combination of the two?

 

[ToniCH]

It’s very frustrating.

Yes.

So, we don't have sama brand routers, nor same Apple devices. What about OS-versions? Our is Catalina with all updates.

We don't have this problem every day. Its quite random and I don't know what triggers it.

I guess this is worth a try: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254077998
and https://osxdaily.com/2012/02/22/mac-wont-remember-a-wireless-network-password-heres-how-to-fix-it/

 

[Buadhai]

Yes.

So, we don't have sama brand routers, nor same Apple devices. What about OS-versions? Our is Catalina with all updates.

We don't have this problem every day. Its quite random and I don't know what triggers it.

I guess this is worth a try: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254077998
and https://osxdaily.com/2012/02/22/mac-wont-remember-a-wireless-network-password-heres-how-to-fix-it/

My wife’s Intel MBA is on Monterrey. All the iOS devices are on the latest version. My ancient MacBook (the big heavy white one) is on High Sierra and has not ever had the password issue.

We have not tried Keychain first aid. We have tried deleting and adding SSIDs/passwords. We are using 8.8.8.8 and 1.1.1.1 as DNS servers.

Our problem is also intermittent and seemingly random.

I suppose it is mildly reassuring to know that we are not alone.

 

[ToniCH]

I suppose it is mildly reassuring to know that we are not alone.

LOL, I agree.

Well, the make new network location -tip and re-enter wifi-settings in the Apple-discussion is super quick and easy to try. Then just wait until it happens again - or hopefully doesn't.

 

[Furby2005]

I have three old(er) Macs, a 2010 MacBook Air running High Sierra, a 2012 Mac mini running Mojave and a 2012 MacBook Pro running Catalina and they have all recently started to show this behaviour, occasionally dropping off the wi-fi and requiring the password to be re-entered. I've only noticed this behaviour recently (within the last couple of months). Mercifully my modern Macs, running Ventura and the Sonoma beta, haven't shown any signs of this problem. Maybe there's an issue with iCloud Keychain compatibility on older OSes? I've also noticed that stored wi-fi networks don't show up on these Macs.

 

[Buadhai]

Well, the make new network location -tip and re-enter wifi-settings in the Apple-discussion is super quick and easy to try. Then just wait until it happens again - or hopefully doesn't.

Do iOS devices have network location settings?

 

[ToniCH]

LOL, I agree.

Well, the make new network location -tip and re-enter wifi-settings in the Apple-discussion is super quick and easy to try. Then just wait until it happens again - or hopefully doesn't.

Update: I did make the change right after I wrote the text above. I today asked my wife if she has experienced the problem since. And, no - not a single time in 2 weeks!

One thing I noticed when doing it: there was no saved password for our WiFi in her keychain. But when I made a new network location and logged in the password was immediately saved to the keychain.

 

[addamas]

Interesting thread, I had this also when I updated to non-natively-supported Catalina 2 weeks ago on my MBP Late 2011. Also it removed password from keychain so every other iDevice lost it but kept connection.

Also this old buddy sometimes were losing WiFi connection, luckily now it’s no longer having ”dead” WiFi card after some wake-up from sleep as it was for few days after update - WiFi was showing all SSIDs around and was not being able to connect to any– I had to kick his butt by resetting SMC* as WiFi was not working even after normal power cycle (restart)

* ”On the built-in keyboard, simultaneously press and hold the left Shift, left Control, and left Option keys on the keyboard while you press the power button for 10 seconds. (If you have a MacBook Pro with Touch ID, the Touch ID button is also the power button.”

So maybe they had issues on iCloud ? Dunno but it has fixed on its own