Apple powered palm top

[Shasta]

We all have talked about how the palm is dead, killed by the super phones and the iPod. Yet, we all scream "Newton next tuesday!!" every time there is a new keynote or the promise of an unknown hardware release. This is my call to Apple to answer our call, give us our next mobile computing platform! Brand it as the next iPod, the iNewton, hell the Red Delicious would be fine (no not really) just get it into my grubby, iCal and Address book powered hands!

As my college career comes quickly to an end I find myself becoming more and more "professional," relying on my contacts and calendar to drive and dictate my life. I've tried the palm pilot, treo 90 specifically, and though it worked I was tired of forcing it to "just work." Lately I've been relying on my iBook. It has gone everywhere I have for the past month just so I know what I am doing!

Apple give me my Apple inspired, Apple styled, Apple branded mobile device!
let it fit in my hand and pocket
let it easily interface with my other hardware
make it instantly update data with my other bluetooth/WiFi equipped devices
fix the problems we all have with palm

make my life just a little easier

Shasta

 

[OldCorpse]

We all have talked about how the palm is dead, killed by the super phones and the iPod. Yet, we all scream "Newton next tuesday!!" every time there is a new keynote or the promise of an unknown hardware release. This is my call to Apple to answer our call, give us our next mobile computing platform! Brand it as the next iPod, the iNewton, hell the Red Delicious would be fine (no not really) just get it into my grubby, iCal and Address book powered hands!

As my college career comes quickly to an end I find myself becoming more and more "professional," relying on my contacts and calendar to drive and dictate my life. I've tried the palm pilot, treo 90 specifically, and though it worked I was tired of forcing it to "just work." Lately I've been relying on my iBook. It has gone everywhere I have for the past month just so I know what I am doing!

Apple give me my Apple inspired, Apple styled, Apple branded mobile device!
let it fit in my
let it easily interface with my other hardware
make it instantly update data with my other bluetooth/WiFi equipped devices
fix the problems we all have with palm

make my life just a little easier

Shasta

Sorry, I just don't see that happening. Why would Apple do that? Steve actually directly addressed this - he sees no market for the PDA. I think he's right. Sure, there will be some who buy it, but it's a very small market, and gettting smaller all the time. Have you noticed... Palm gave up on their own OS! They're going with WinCE. Doesn't that tell you something? When the dominant PDA maker, the one who basically INVENTED the market, and whose OS is superior TO THIS DAY to WinCE, nonetheless switches to WinCE... game over. Reason they switched is because PDAs are basically an enterprise only market - and in the enterprise, compatibility and interchagibility with Win products is the key, so even though WinCE is vastly inferior to Palm OS, nonetheless, enterprises go with WinCE due to issues I mentioned. So, now you think that Apple is going to come into this market with their own OS to compete with WinCE, when even the dominant and superior PalmOS was defeted? FAT CHANCE. Sure, there are folks like you who'd buy it, but that's such a miniscule market, it's not even funny. Apple would be very silly to try to get into such a "market". So you ask for a new Newton?

Friend, it will never happen.

 

[ITASOR]

Friend, it will never happen.

Maybe it will if you stop quoting the OP's post when you're the FIRST person to reply. You guys kill my pocket pc when you do that...it has to load like 800 times as much text.

 

[OldCorpse]

Maybe it will if you stop quoting the OP's post when you're the FIRST person to reply. You guys kill my pocket pc when you do that...it has to load like 800 times as much text.

Ooops, sorry... I didn't think of that. Hmm. You have a point - if it is the first post, no need to quote it, as that's the only one I could be responding to. There is however one small exception - if my reply is lengthy, by the time I click "post", someone may already answer, at which point, my response is no longer the first. Happened before. Still, you're right, I'll try to remember that for the future... what I find wasteful is the posts where the entire (long) post is quoted, with just one or two word commentary like "I agree", "right on" etc.

 

[Dr_Maybe]

I just want an iPhone. It should do, phonecalls, contacts, calendar and have iPod functionality. No need to carry a phone with a headset and an ipod with another headset, when you can carry just a phone with a headset.

 

[nagromme]

I would love a pocket Mac.

Something that could be used two ways:

1. PDA-style with a stylus and a simplified UI.

2. Full OS X and apps (with limited speed obviously) when connected to any keyboard and display that happens to be around.

This would not be an ideal computer. But it would mean I would HAVE a computer instead of having NOTHING--which is where I'm at now when I don't feel like lugging my laptop.

But I think the demand is too small... for now.

As the Mac market grows, there will be room for a wider variety of Macs in the lineup. Time is on our side!

 

[ITASOR]

Sorry to go off topic with that post there...

Anyway, if apple released some type or portable that had wifi and was under $400, I would buy one.

 

[Thanatoast]

How about we compromise? The Treo comes in Palm and Windows flavors, why not a Mac flavor?

I used to own a phone and a palm, which was annoying. they didn't talk to eachother and they took up space in my pockets. It was a general pain in the ass.

So I bought a Samsung i500. Old, but cheaper and fully functional palm-based phone. Now I have my one device to carry around - so very nice - and it does all the palm-related things I want it to do, like surf the net, keep my checkbook, play simcity, calender, contacts, blah blah blah.

I'd love to get a Treo 700p when and if they come out (never the 700w ), but it would be beyond cool if they had a 700m. A Treo that runs a fully compatible, iSync-ready, stripped down OSX. I don't wanna play Doom 3 on the thing, just keep my checkbook, play a few simple games, surf the net, take cheap photos and video, keep my contacts and calender and fully sync with OSX out of the box. Oh - and answer phone calls.

Who's with me?

 

[rendezvouscp]

Ooops, sorry... I didn't think of that. Hmm. You have a point - if it is the first post, no need to quote it, as that's the only one I could be responding to. There is however one small exception - if my reply is lengthy, by the time I click "post", someone may already answer, at which point, my response is no longer the first. Happened before. Still, you're right, I'll try to remember that for the future... what I find wasteful is the posts where the entire (long) post is quoted, with just one or two word commentary like "I agree", "right on" etc.

It's not just the first post—it's posting right after what you're quoting. Just assume that you will be the next poster, especially in a slower-moving thread like this one. If you aren't the first responder to a certain post, then just edit your post with the quote.

Regarding the thread, I would like to see a handheld come from Apple, I just don't think it'll happen.

Though, f anyone could do it right, it'd be Apple.
-Chasen

 

[OldCorpse]

I would love a pocket Mac.

Something that could be used two ways:

1. PDA-style with a stylus and a simplified UI.

2. Full OS X and apps (with limited speed obviously) when connected to any keyboard and display that happens to be around.

This would not be an ideal computer. But it would mean I would HAVE a computer instead of having NOTHING--which is where I'm at now when I don't feel like lugging my laptop.

But I think the demand is too small... for now.

As the Mac market grows, there will be room for a wider variety of Macs in the lineup. Time is on our side!

I don't know if it has anything at all to do with the size of the Apple market. Look, Palm had the market to itself pretty much, and still is the biggest player there by far. And yet, they gave up on their *still superior* OS, in favor of WinCE. So, Apple coming in, no matter how superior, won't make a difference - and it is not likely that Apple will be 40%-60% of the market, as Palm is - and guess what, even that didn't help Palm. So size of the market is not relevant either. The reason is very simple. It is not just the size of the market. It is WHERE the market is. The market is almost entirely enterprise. That's the real key. That's why Palm lost. All the entrprise drones who need their windows fix - and that means, yes, windows. Not Apple, Palm or Santa Claus. As long as the enterprise market is wedded to windows, there is 0% chance for anyone else. Linux has tried to make inroads into the enterprise market, and guess what, in fact we've had Linux PDAs... didn't make much impact, as Linux is still small in the enterprise market. So the question is - what presence does Apple have in the enterprise market. And luckily, we have an answer - almost none. In fact, if you look up at the article discussion forums here, you'll see an article that addresses exactly this issue... and the conclusion is, that Apple has pretty much GIVEN UP on the enterprise market. Given that the PDA market is almost 100% enterprise these days, tells us theat there is 0% chance for Apple in the enterprise market.

Why is the PDA no longer a consumer market? Look at what you (a consumer) want to do with the PDA... nothing that I'd want to do (a consumer) - so the consumer market is small, most don't want what you need from it. I look at that, and I say to myself - all I need in a small device is 1) a calendar where I can check/make my appointments (bingo - iPod has it), 2) some basic note-taking capability (bingo - iPod has it) 3) small database capabilities for addresses, numbers etc. (again, feasible for the iPod). I realize you may wish more, but that's enough for me and the vast majority of consumers. And while the current iPod may not fulfil those needs perfectly, I'm confident that a) Apple will improve on the software, and b)third party software will make the iPod do all I want it to for those capabilities. In short, no consumer market to speak of, regardless of size - if Windows which has a 90% of the OS market can't change that, then Apple growing market share is not going to change that either, even if Apple were 90% of the market.

Bottom line: zero chance of a PDA from Apple, ever.

 

[Shasta]

1) a calendar where I can check/make my appointments (bingo - iPod has it), 2) some basic note-taking capability (bingo - iPod has it) 3) small database capabilities for addresses, numbers etc. (again, feasible for the iPod).

where's the easy UI on the iPod? it is perfect for playing music and retrieving information, but I don't want to spend more time then it takes me to get out and wake my laptop to create an event!

honestly give me an iPod with similar functions as say the Palm LifeDrive for under $500 and I would love you forever

I know I can rant and beg all I want, and one guys bitching and moaning isn't going to do anything with Apple, but I am seriously frustrated with the current offerings and I know our favorite company can and will do loads better.

Steve said Apple would never make flash based mp3 players
Steve said video should be kept away from the iPod
Steve said Mac would never run on intel
Steve said that the palm is dead...



Shasta

 

[OldCorpse]

where's the easy UI on the iPod? it is perfect for playing music and retrieving information, but I don't want to spend more time then it takes me to get out and wake my laptop to create an event!

honestly give me an iPod with similar functions as say the Palm LifeDrive for under $500 and I would love you forever

I know I can rant and beg all I want, and one guys bitching and moaning isn't going to do anything with Apple, but I am seriously frustrated with the current offerings and I know our favorite company can and will do loads better.

Steve said Apple would never make flash based mp3 players
Steve said video should be kept away from the iPod
Steve said Mac would never run on intel
Steve said that the palm is dead...



Shasta

I hear you, and I agree, just because Steve said something doesn't mean squat. However, there are the realities of the market. The consumer PDA market is DEAD. DEAD. This is not Steve's imagination. Look, the dominant PDA player (Palm) with a very sweet OS - just gave up. It wasn't because they wanted to give up their superior OS. The market killed them. How is Steve going to change that? It is an enterprise market only. And Apple gave up on the enterprise market. So long as that is the case, there will be no Apple PDA. And who believes that Apple is going to beat out Windows in the enterprise market, so that x number of years from now, Apple will be as dominant in the business world as Microsoft is today? I'd say zero chance - again, nothing that Steve can do about it (we can argue as to whether one day Linux may not sweep the enterprise market, but that's still far off in the future... and it is not Apple).

As to your complaints about iPod - totally valid. But that's what I addressed when I said that Apple will continue to improve the interface, and that third party solutions will also make that a lot better. Your best bet is not pining away for an Apple PDA which doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell to happen, but rather, your solution is with Apple and third party solutions to make the iPod do what you want... or an Apple treo type phone ... see, cell phones are emphatically a consumer market, moreover one that is not dominated by a single large player (like Microsoft) and so Apple stands a decent chance.

 

[nagromme]

The difference lies in the fact that what I want (personally) would run Mac OS X. It wouldn't be a "special" OS just for PDAs, even though it may have a special UI for certain common tasks (look at Front Row).

That means it doesn't have to survive on its own as a separate OS product.

That also means Mac market share matters: it would sell to Mac users, and there aren't enough of them to justify hardware for niches as small as this.

The market for this wouldn't be the identical market to the one Palm has been getting away from. It would overlap more with the sub-subnotebook market: computer users (big market) who like portability (growing market--look at portable game systems). And it could function as a low-powered full OS X desktop when peripherals were attached.

I don't expect to see Apple make a Palm clone or a Newton as such. Those are cannibalized by phones and I don't see that changing. But a compact Apple device with a little broader slant? General computing plus ultraportable? Not soon, but someday.

So I like the term "palmtop" better than PDA, for what I'm picturing. A tiny keyboard/pointer instead of a stylus would even be fine.

 

[Crikey]

... Palm gave up on their own OS! They're going with WinCE. Doesn't that tell you something? When the dominant PDA maker, the one who basically INVENTED the market, and whose OS is superior TO THIS DAY to WinCE, nonetheless switches to WinCE... game over. Reason they switched is because PDAs are basically an enterprise only market - and in the enterprise, compatibility and interchagibility with Win products is the key, so even though WinCE is vastly inferior to Palm OS, nonetheless, enterprises go with WinCE due to issues I mentioned.

This whole bit is off. Palm has only used Windows on one model, and it's a smart phone rather than a PDA. They still offer a full line of Palm-powered PDAs, and all their other smartphones use Palm OS as well. I'm not convinced that introducing one Treo with WinCE means Palm will convert their whole line (Yeeks! That would SUCK!). Palm CEO Ed Colligan says they are sticking with Palm OS ( http://www.engadget.com/2005/11/09/palm-ceo-ed-colligan-says-theyre-sticking-with-the-palm-os/ ), and they just refreshed their PDA line in October with all Palm OS models.

OldCorpse makes the same error regarding Palm and the PDA market that many people make about Apple and the computer market: assuming that there will inevitably be market consolidation around only one winning platform. In fact, there is room in both markets for alternatives, and different people will have different preferences about what they want to use. OldCorpse also overestimates the disappearance of the consumer PDA market. Palm sells a lot of PDAs, and makes money doing so. The cheapest Palm is far more capable than most cell phones at PDA tasks, and for $99 it's a good deal for a lot of people.

However, OldCorpse is correct in his broader point. Apple didn't kill off the Newton, Steve Jobs did, as one of his first moves back in the driver's seat. He doesn't think much of PDAs. So barring any epiphany as with the "video iPod", we won't see a PDA from Apple.


Crikey

 

[Crikey]

Sorry to go off topic with that post there...

Anyway, if apple released some type or portable that had wifi and was under $400, I would buy one.

Like the Nokia 770, only running MacOS X rather than Linux?


Crikey

 

[zap2]

- he sees no market for the PDA.

Just like Flash Base Mp3 player are "throwaway" and "we will have 3Ghz PM G5 in a year."

 

[ITASOR]

I'm not convinced that introducing one Treo with WinCE means Palm will convert their whole line (Yeeks! That would SUCK!).
Crikey

I don't necessarily think that's true either. Palm wouldn't do that. If they did, that means what...no Mac users with palm devices.

IMO, Windows Mobile blows Palm OS away anyway though...

 

[nagromme]

Also, markets change, technologies change, competition changes, strategies change...

Steve saying a PDA has no market in the world is not the same thing as Steve promising that the world will stay the same forever.

 

[yankeefan24]

Steve said Apple would never make flash based mp3 players
Steve said video should be kept away from the iPod
Steve said Mac would never run on intel
Steve said that the palm is dead...



Shasta

you do have a good point. But, i don't think that apple will make a PDA. They might make a smart phone though. Like an iPod that has a keyboard slide out. I can see that feasible. But, you never know with apple.

 

[Shasta]

After a 20 minute hike through arctic tundra back to my appt. I want to revise my demand for an Apple branded palm...

I want mac software that is wireless hardware aware! I keep bringing up the Palm LifeDrive, well because it is what I want. What I am the most disappointed with is the palm integration with Macs. Make the software constantly scan the bluetooth network. Make it know when I get in range and automatically update my data for me.

I think I've decided that iSync needs to constantly run...

... any opinions?

Shasta

 

[ITASOR]

After a 20 minute hike through arctic tundra back to my appt.

Yeah, it's a freakin' blizzard over here!
I sent you a PM, check your inbox.

 

[OldCorpse]

The difference lies in the fact that what I want (personally) would run Mac OS X. It wouldn't be a "special" OS just for PDAs, even though it may have a special UI for certain common tasks (look at Front Row).

That means it doesn't have to survive on its own as a separate OS product.

That also means Mac market share matters: it would sell to Mac users, and there aren't enough of them to justify hardware for niches as small as this.

The market for this wouldn't be the identical market to the one Palm has been getting away from. It would overlap more with the sub-subnotebook market: computer users (big market) who like portability (growing market--look at portable game systems). And it could function as a low-powered full OS X desktop when peripherals were attached.

I don't expect to see Apple make a Palm clone or a Newton as such. Those are cannibalized by phones and I don't see that changing. But a compact Apple device with a little broader slant? General computing plus ultraportable? Not soon, but someday.

So I like the term "palmtop" better than PDA, for what I'm picturing. A tiny keyboard/pointer instead of a stylus would even be fine.

I guess I'm not clear on what you are saying here. It's a PDA with a full-on OS X? Or a sub-subnotebook with full OS X? But either way, I'm doubtful for the following reasons. Some of the major limitation to small devices:

1) Input. Full keyboard is out or inconvenient. This is not a huge problem, and there are a number of reasonable solutions.

2) Screensize. This is a killer. No easy solution.

3) Battery life.

The only reason to run a full size OS X, is to take advantage of *all* that OS X offers, otherwise why run a regular OS X? And that, friends is kind of a nonstarter with a tiny screen, with limited/more awkward input and tiny battery. Are you going to photoshop on this thing? What will you see on such a tiny screen for photoshop? How convenient is it going to be to work with a stylus in photoshop? How long do you imagine you'll work on such a small battery running photoshop (small enough to fit into a PDA size device). Oh, so you won't be doing FCP, Aperture, Photoshop, Logic, etc. etc, etc., etc.. Hmm. So why again do you need a full OS X? Graphic work is obviously out. Word processing is a giant pain - I'll take a 12" iBook minimum any day - smaller screen, which includes any sub-subnotebook is out as well even for this simple application. So again, what do you need a full OS X for? Burning CD/DVD? Obviously not. Not to mention, just to run the OS without any apps, OS X will suck power like mad, absolutely killing your battery to do some very simple things for which the PDA or sub-subnotebook format is suited - in which case why not just run THAT software (hey, that's the whole Palm OS idea!) in the first place and at least save your battery!!! Things that OS X could do that a small Palm OS type thing COULD NOT, would not be practical or possible on a PDA or sub-subnotebook (say, video editing). Meanwhile, things which OS X COULD do on a PDA or sub-subnotebook, a smaller dedicated OS would be much, much better at, not to mention sparing the battery. You know, this whole FULL OS X thing on a PDA or sub-subnotebook just ain't working.

There is a call for a small device to do things I already enumerated plus perhaps more - but that can be taken care of with a smartly equipped and well designed iPod. Full on OS X on a PDA or sub-sub notebook is as useful as those giant truck tires on a skateboard - it's at cross-purposes.

Again, I see 0% chance of an Apple PDA, palmtop, sub-subnotebook etc., with or without OS X, modified OS X or any configuration or variation. Z-E-R-O.

 

[Timepass]

Like said before they also said apple would never use intel or never have a flash base mp3 player and so on.

That all being said I own a Palm TX and I have really started to love the thing. It is a great way for me to keep all my class straight and assiments in one ordered place. Plus it also keep my task list and my calander in it. Contacts are also stored in it just used very little.

Now if apple came out with some type of PDA it would really need to be compatible with windows as well other wise it just way to small of a market. I tend to see PDA really only in the buniness world which is even more dominated by windows than the home computers. If it was apple only you are talking a nitch market inside a nitch market so there just no market for it. Another reason for this is I can just sight the ipods as an example. They did not take off until they were made adviable to work with windows computers. Now the market is even smaller.

Also it would be almost required for it to be compatible with outlook. I know the palm 0S is and I find that part very helpful for keeping it updated and it is the program used the most heavily in the windows word for this stuff. Also you cannt really put OSX on it because of the ram and hard drive space required for it. It would be something link OSX but is own verson of it for the PDA

 

[OldCorpse]

That all being said I own a Palm TX and I have really started to love the thing. It is a great way for me to keep all my class straight and assiments in one ordered place. Plus it also keep my task list and my calander in it. Contacts are also stored in it just used very little.

That's interesting. Could you elaborate a bit? Seems what you mentioned, could all be done on an iPod with a decent screen and some killer software. I expect Apple or a third party developer could really do it. Why exactly do you need the Palm TX? Seems one could almost do all of it on CURRENT iPods, let alone what will come in the future? I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious. I guess I never understood this whole need for a PDA. If I got one for free, I'd just smash it against the wall, personally... seems useless. But I'm open to contrary ideas.

 

[mpw]

I think you'll find this is what you're after.