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tr20199

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 1, 2020
14
0
I wanted a new watch for exercise tracking, so I looked at Apple Watch 6. I was also excited about this SpO2 feature that the Apple Watch 6 has, even if I really don't need it. This feature is the main new feature that they are marketing their watch with. Just check out their web page and it is basically the headline for the watch. Also, in these covid themes, this is suiting, right ? So I bought the watch, and I know that this is not for "medical use". I am 35 years old and fit, I am very healthy and I exercise almost every day, and there is nothing wrong with me as I know. I tried the feature, and it always read between 87 - 91, suggesting that I might be hypoxic. Or in these times, considering my good health, that I might have COVID-19. I knew that this is probably not accurate, but what if the watch is right ? I developed a concern over a few hours, and I went out late at night to a pharmacy and bought a 100 euro medical grade pulse oximeter (SpO2). In that way, I could know for sure if I had to see a doctor to check if I have an unknown heart or lung issue, and yes, I could sleep at night if the oximeter says so! And guess what! My SpO2 is at 99%, steadily. Perfect! I kept taking readings with the SpO2 meter on my finger at the same time as with the watch, and the watch said that I had hypoxia almost all the time, while the SpO2 meter said I had 99% SpO2. I tried different tightnesses of the strap (tight, loose, in between), and I put the watch at different positions on my wrists, and further up on my forearm to get a larger contact surface, all kinds of things I tried. My pulse was between 60 - 90 bpm, and I was in room temperature, and had normal body temperature. However, sometimes the watch said I had 100%. And the next reading showed for example 90%.

So, basically, this gave me a lot of unnecessary concern. Apple customer service said that "well, it is not intended for medical use, so there is nothing we can do". I went through (spent 3 hours) everything with customer service, the HW diagnostics and the watch is perfectly fine, and there is nothing more they can do. They claim that erroneous reading might be because you are moving your arm or something like that a little bit. But how can you know ? Am I supposed to assume that low readings are because of the watch not touching the skin in the exact right way in optimal conditions ? How can I know if the reading is in fact taken in optimal conditions ?

What if someone is sick with COVID-19 and have hypoxia without knowing it, and the watch shows 100% ? Maybe that will make them delay their visit to the doctor and get worse ? Of course they might be aware that it is not a "medical device", but still, it can affect their perception and decision. And what is the point having such a feature if it doesn't work ?

In my case, I wasted 100 euros, hours of my time, and as I see it now, money on a watch. I want to return it because of this, but I can't because I bought it in a third party store. Apple basically says that it is my problem. It is not intended for medical use, and if someone has a concern, they should see a doctor. Well, it did indeed gave me concern, and for nothing. If it was not for the watch, I would not waste money on an oximeter or consulting a doctor - for nothing! What is the point with that ? I am sitting there with a watch with a main feature that doesn't work, and that tries to give me anxiety, and it is my problem.

But - worse, is that people might get erroneous assurances for their SpO2 levels. That could be in the worst case fatal in the time of COVID-19.
 
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tr20199

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 1, 2020
14
0
I watched a video from C/Net on the new watch. The tester had a pulse oximeter and the new watch, when testing there was a conflict until she placed the watch in the proper place and I believe tightened it up some. Maybe this will help?

C/Net Watch 6
Yes, I have tried, but I will try some more
 

johannnn

macrumors 68020
Nov 20, 2009
2,315
2,603
Sweden
Most of the time, the user has the band too loose. Which is a bit ironic since they released the solo loop together with this watch, and you can't by definition have that band extremely tight (since it has to go over your hand).
 

tr20199

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 1, 2020
14
0
Most of the time, the user has the band too loose. Which is a bit ironic since they released the solo loop together with this watch, and you can't by definition have that band extremely tight (since it has to go over your hand).
Yes, but how can I know that a result is in fact taken in optimal conditions ? If I get values around 90 all the time, for example.
 

Glene

macrumors 6502
Sep 13, 2014
448
171
Ft Lauderdale
So you didn’t look into the return policy when you bought it? I don’t see any other alternative for you except to put it in your drawer if you can’t return it. Obviously it doesn’t work for you, it sounds like you’ve tried everything. For many of us it works fine, I get the exact same reading within one percent of my finger pulse ox and the hospital measurements with the watch. EVERY TIME. I have the sport band and I wear it very tight when I want to take the reading.And it is vital for you to rest your arm on something like the wide arm of the recliner chair, and not move your arm whatsoever once the countdown starts.
 

bluegt

macrumors 6502
Jul 3, 2015
462
488
I wanted a new watch for exercise tracking, so I looked at Apple Watch 6. I was also excited about this SpO2 feature that the Apple Watch 6 has, even if I really don't need it. This feature is the main new feature that they are marketing their watch with. Just check out their web page and it is basically the headline for the watch. Also, in these covid themes, this is suiting, right ? So I bought the watch, and I know that this is not for "medical use". I am 35 years old and fit, I am very healthy and I exercise almost every day, and there is nothing wrong with me as I know. I tried the feature, and it always read between 87 - 91, suggesting that I might be hypoxic. Or in these times, considering my good health, that I might have COVID-19. I knew that this is probably not accurate, but what if the watch is right ? I developed a concern over a few hours, and I went out late at night to a pharmacy and bought a 100 euro medical grade pulse oximeter (SpO2). In that way, I could know for sure if I had to see a doctor to check if I have an unknown heart or lung issue, and yes, I could sleep at night if the oximeter says so! And guess what! My SpO2 is at 99%, steadily. Perfect! I kept taking readings with the SpO2 meter on my finger at the same time as with the watch, and the watch said that I had hypoxia almost all the time, while the SpO2 meter said I had 99% SpO2. I tried different tightnesses of the strap (tight, loose, in between), and I put the watch at different positions on my wrists, and further up on my forearm to get a larger contact surface, all kinds of things I tried. My pulse was between 60 - 90 bpm, and I was in room temperature, and had normal body temperature. However, sometimes the watch said I had 100%. And the next reading showed for example 90%.

So, basically, this gave me a lot of unnecessary concern. Apple customer service said that "well, it is not intended for medical use, so there is nothing we can do". I went through (spent 3 hours) everything with customer service, the HW diagnostics and the watch is perfectly fine, and there is nothing more they can do. They claim that erroneous reading might be because you are moving your arm or something like that a little bit. But how can you know ? Am I supposed to assume that low readings are because of the watch not touching the skin in the exact right way in optimal conditions ? How can I know if the reading is in fact taken in optimal conditions ?

What if someone is sick with COVID-19 and have hypoxia without knowing it, and the watch shows 100% ? Maybe that will make them delay their visit to the doctor and get worse ? Of course they might be aware that it is not a "medical device", but still, it can affect their perception and decision. And what is the point having such a feature if it doesn't work ?

In my case, I wasted 100 euros, hours of my time, and as I see it now, money on a watch. I want to return it because of this, but I can't because I bought it in a third party store. Apple basically says that it is my problem. It is not intended for medical use, and if someone has a concern, they should see a doctor. Well, it did indeed gave me concern, and for nothing. If it was not for the watch, I would not waste money on an oximeter or consulting a doctor - for nothing! What is the point with that ? I am sitting there with a watch with a main feature that doesn't work, and that tries to give me anxiety, and it is my problem.

But - worse, is that people might get erroneous assurances for their SpO2 levels. That could be in the worst case fatal in the time of COVID-19.

Try reading through this: https://www.macrumors.com/guide/blood-oxygen-monitoring/

Also, do any of these apply?
  • Tattoos - Dark tattoos in the area where the sensors are located can cause the light that shines through the skin to measure oxygen level to fail to work properly. There's no fix for this, unless there's a non-tattooed wrist area available. Note that lighter tattoos may not interfere with the sensor, and it may also work with those that leave a good amount of skin visible.
  • Cold weather - If it's cold outside, it can affect how much blood flows through your arm at any given time, which in turn can cause blood oxygen measurements to fail.
  • Skin perfusion - Regardless of weather, sometimes the blood flowing through the skin is slower, and this can vary significantly from person to person. Skin perfusion is a factor in how well the blood oxygen measurements work.
  • High heart rate - If your heart rate is above 150 beats per minute at rest, the blood oxygen measurement feature will not work.
  • Motion - As mentioned above, blood oxygen measurements tolerate little to no motion at all, and arm position is a factor. Hold the arm straight with your fingers out and try not to move if you're having issues.
It's possible your unique circumstance is not suitable for a wrist-based reading.

If none of the above apply, perhaps try the watch with someone else to make sure this isn't a hardware issue. If the other person is also getting very low readings, then it could be the watch.

Otherwise, try getting back to Apple Support, ask for it to be escalated... push for a replacement just to be sure.
 
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tr20199

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 1, 2020
14
0
So you didn’t look into the return policy when you bought it? I don’t see any other alternative for you except to put it in your drawer if you can’t return it. Obviously it doesn’t work for you, it sounds like you’ve tried everything. For many of us it works fine, I get the exact same reading within one percent of my finger pulse ox and the hospital measurements with the watch. EVERY TIME. I have the sport band and I wear it very tight when I want to take the reading.And it is vital for you to rest your arm on something like the wide arm of the recliner chair, and not move your arm whatsoever once the countdown starts.
Good to hear that it is working for you!
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,468
6,571
US
Yes, but how can I know that a result is in fact taken in optimal conditions ? If I get values around 90 all the time, for example.

I think the best you can do is pay attention to the guidance from Apple and assess the degree to which you've been able to do so.


1601556547127.png
 

matrix07

macrumors G3
Jun 24, 2010
8,226
4,895
Yep. I recommend try the watch with another person. Band tight. Arm still. And see if the result vary from you?
 

tr20199

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 1, 2020
14
0
I think the best you can do is pay attention to the guidance from Apple and assess the degree to which you've been able to do so.


View attachment 961795
Yes, I was actually going through all those factors in that list with Apple customer support. I was also doing things right before contacting them, and I don't seem to be affected by the additional factors.
 

tr20199

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 1, 2020
14
0
Try reading through this: https://www.macrumors.com/guide/blood-oxygen-monitoring/

Also, do any of these apply?
  • Tattoos - Dark tattoos in the area where the sensors are located can cause the light that shines through the skin to measure oxygen level to fail to work properly. There's no fix for this, unless there's a non-tattooed wrist area available. Note that lighter tattoos may not interfere with the sensor, and it may also work with those that leave a good amount of skin visible.
  • Cold weather - If it's cold outside, it can affect how much blood flows through your arm at any given time, which in turn can cause blood oxygen measurements to fail.
  • Skin perfusion - Regardless of weather, sometimes the blood flowing through the skin is slower, and this can vary significantly from person to person. Skin perfusion is a factor in how well the blood oxygen measurements work.
  • High heart rate - If your heart rate is above 150 beats per minute at rest, the blood oxygen measurement feature will not work.
  • Motion - As mentioned above, blood oxygen measurements tolerate little to no motion at all, and arm position is a factor. Hold the arm straight with your fingers out and try not to move if you're having issues.
It's possible your unique circumstance is not suitable for a wrist-based reading.

If none of the above apply, perhaps try the watch with someone else to make sure this isn't a hardware issue. If the other person is also getting very low readings, then it could be the watch.

Otherwise, try getting back to Apple Support, ask for it to be escalated... push for a replacement just to be sure.
Yes, I was actually going through all those factors in that list with Apple customer support. I was also doing things right before contacting them, and I don't seem to be affected by the additional factors. It is a good idea to try with someone else! Yes, I was just in contact with the store and explained them this, and they said I can return it if I want, so I will see.
 

tr20199

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 1, 2020
14
0
What band do you have and is it tight enough?
I bought the 40 mm blue version that comes with this rubber band. I have tried to have it really, really tight, somewhat tight, loose, and really loose. Some of the measurements fail. However, how can I know if a reading is "good" or "bad" (for high as well as for low values)
 

JulianL

macrumors 68000
Feb 2, 2010
1,714
726
London, UK
I’ve had readings as low as 82% when my s6 takes reading in the background and I think it’s because my leather strap needs to be between holes so is a tiny bit loose which comfort-wise is better for me than being over-tight. I put a Milanese loop on today so it is tighter and I’ve had a 95% and a 100% automated reading so far today.

When I see very low automated readings I just take a manual reading so that I know my wrist is still and upright (watch facing towards the ceiling so the loose watch band doesn’t matter) for the whole reading and those readings always come in at between 98 and 100%, mostly 100%.

Yes, it’s a bit of a shame the automated readings verge on useless for some people but it is what it is and I think getting a tighter watch strap and/or cross-checking them with manual readings now and then is at least a partial solution right now.

If WatchOS tries to determine a good point to take a background reading by looking at wrist motion and orientation when a reading is due then it’s just possible that some fine tuning of that algorithm might deliver slightly more reliable automated readings via a software update for the s6 otherwise I think we’ll need to wait for series 7 or some future hardware iteration to get to version 2 of the sensors.
 

tr20199

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 1, 2020
14
0
I’ve had readings as low as 82% when my s6 takes reading in the background and I think it’s because my leather strap needs to be between holes so is a tiny bit loose which comfort-wise is better for me than being over-tight. I put a Milanese loop on today so it is tighter and I’ve had a 95% and a 100% automated reading so far today.

When I see very low automated readings I just take a manual reading so that I know my wrist is still and upright (watch facing towards the ceiling so the loose watch band doesn’t matter) for the whole reading and those readings always come in at between 98 and 100%, mostly 100%.

Yes, it’s a bit of a shame the automated readings verge on useless for some people but it is what it is and I think getting a tighter watch strap and/or cross-checking them with manual readings now and then is at least a partial solution right now.

If WatchOS tries to determine a good point to take a background reading by looking at wrist motion and orientation when a reading is due then it’s just possible that some fine tuning of that algorithm might deliver slightly more reliable automated readings via a software update for the s6 otherwise I think we’ll need to wait for series 7 or some future hardware iteration to get to version 2 of the sensors.
Yes, it might be that I somehow make the readings sub-optimal. But how can I know ? I guess it is fine to be relaxed if readings are very low when using the watch ... but yes, what if they really are low ?
 

Glene

macrumors 6502
Sep 13, 2014
448
171
Ft Lauderdale
I am 70, have COPD, and I’ve had it for for five years now, so my Pulmonologist and I are very critical in watching my blood ox. If I get Covid, I’m dead in 3 to 4 days, guaranteed. I’ll never make it to a ventilator. So I really have researched this well and had extensive conversations with professionals. I have written about this before. The only time blood ox drops insanely fast is when Covid has finally taken root in your system, meaning after a fever and cough, and you see a quick decline and labored breathing, out of breath etc. A major dropping off of Sp02 is never the first indicator of Covid, (losing your taste seems to be the first). Unless you have any type of lung problem, you can be assured that after you take your ox with a hospital machine or a good pulse ox finger device and deemed healthy, that any extremely low reading out of the blue can be ignored. Ox will never go from a reading above a healthy 95% tothe low 80s in a few days -Or hours. This follows a little bit of the standard statistical procedure of throwing out the highs and lows of anything and looking at the meat of the measurements…
 
Last edited:

tr20199

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 1, 2020
14
0
I have COPD, and I’ve had it for for five years now, so my Pulmonologist and I are very critical in watching my blood ox. I have written about this before. The only time blood ox drops insanely fast is when Covid has finally taken root in your system, meaning after a fever and cough, and you see a quick decline and labored breathing, out of breath etc. A major dropping off of Sp02 is never the first indicator of Covid, (losing your taste seems to be the first). Unless you have any type of lung problem, you can be assured that after you take your ox with a hospital machine or a good pulse ox finger device, that any extremely low reading out of the blue can be ignored. Ox will never go from a reading above a healthy 95% tothe low 80s in a few days -Or hours. This follows a little bit of the standard statistical procedure of throwing out the highs and lows of anything and looking at the meat of the measurements…
Interesting. Yes, I don't have much knowledge about this, and I was concerned when I had a lot of readings around 90, because as I understand it is not normal to be in that area. But now I understand that if I have a normal reading, and if I get a low one not long after, I can ignore it . Stay safe my friend
 

Knowlege Bomb

macrumors G4
Feb 14, 2008
10,280
8,963
US
So what I'm gathering from the OP is that a healthy, in-shape 35 year old bought a watch with a new health feature that they don't even really need that doesn't quite work perfectly yet and is now upset because of said feature not being perfect despite all of the other fantastic features that work perfectly fine.

I recommend looking into everything else the watch can do before running back to the store.
 

tr20199

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 1, 2020
14
0
So what I'm gathering from the OP is that a healthy, in-shape 35 year old bought a watch with a new health feature that they don't even really need that doesn't quite work perfectly yet and is now upset because of said feature not being perfect despite all of the other fantastic features that work perfectly fine.

I recommend looking into everything else the watch can do before running back to the store.
Yes, maybe I should accept that their main feature introduced in Apple Watch 6 is not working for me, because as you say, I don't really need it. Excellent point. However, considering how Apple responded to my problem where they don't care and just leave it to be my problem, and the fact that they are marketing this aggressively, makes me considering returning it. Does that makes sense ?
 

michaelb5000

macrumors regular
Sep 23, 2015
228
168
In the health app, for blood oxygen, does it show readings in the background during each day and range of values? that should show the average over time. In the show all data, for each reading there is a field called "context" and that will say "background" when the reading is taken automatically. The advantage of the watch is that it can take these readings throughout the day in the background. The finger device cannot do that.

I have no particular expertise in doing these readings, but I also wonder about your HR range. Are you at rest when you take these readings? this is not something to do during or after exercise. So taking readings when you are not at rest may introduce more variability or error.
 

johnyyz

Suspended
Sep 18, 2020
142
278
The watch never said you had hypoxia, it gave inaccurate readings and you drew that conclusion. It's not a medical grade device, which you acknowledged, which means you should also take the readings it gives you with a grain of salt.
 
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