Apple's "Business Model".

[gobikerider]

Thought I'd clear up a common misconception, with Apples business model, people are wondering why the oldest supported devices on iOS 11 are really slow, aside from it being BETA 1 They believe Apple is simply screwing them and making them upgrade. They say how their 8 year old pc got a Windows update and it actually made it faster (I somehow doubt that)
1. Apple execs don't sit in a office all day scheming to rip off people and force "planned obsolescence"
2. The reason older devices don't perform quite as quick as the newer ones is simply because Apple has vastly advanced the target hardware and processing power in the iPhones and iPads since 2013. The newer versions of iOS logically are designed with that hardware in mind so it makes since the old ones would be slower. As for iOS 11 performance, the jury is stil out considering its not even beta 2 let alone 11.3.456
3. The only reason Windows updates support the older hardware and still run decent is because your basic intel CPU hadn't evolved much in the past 8 years. Yah they made some improvements but its not nearly the same magnitude that Apples made in the last 4 years.
4. Let's not forget Windows 10 is essentially Windows 7 with improved security and a fresh coat of paint, while iOS 9,10,11 all have brought new innovative fundamental changes to the core of the OS from security, graphics, and even the entire file system. All of which were designed with the newer devices technology and performance in mind.

TLDR: Apple isn't trying to screw you, they are simply giving us features we asked for and well sorry but new flash the A7 may be 64 bit but it still is very primitive architecture wise compared to A9 or newer chips from Apple. So yah the iPad Air and iPhone 5s probably wont perform the best but I bet they will be perfectly functional aside from loading things a little slow. Which really is impressive considering the difference between iOS 11 vs iOS 7 in terms of the overhead of each operating system.

 

[chucker23n1]

The reason older devices don't perform quite as quick as the newer ones is simply because Apple has vastly advanced the target hardware and processing power in the iPhones and iPads since 2013. The newer versions of iOS logically are designed with that hardware in mind so it makes since the old ones would be slower.

Maybe so, but Apple also isn't giving users much of an option to stay on an older OS release with added security patches. On macOS, you get security updates for some older versions; on iOS, you almost invariably have to stay on the latest.

Windows 10 is essentially Windows 7 with improved security and a fresh coat of paint

That's nonsense. Between Windows 7 and 10, there have been numerous low-level system improvements, such as much broader UEFI support, booting from USB, NVMe, SMB 3, and Windows Subsystem for Linux.

And that's not even looking at higher level stuff.

 

[Fuzzball84]

Apple usually restrict what's added to each release on the pretense it isn't ready. But we all know it's just so it can be added into a later version and be a highlight. Spread the butter very very thin

 

[Paddle1]

If you think iPhone 5s is really slow you probably haven't used iPhone 4 or 4s.

 

[gobikerider]

If you think iPhone 5s is really slow you probably haven't used iPhone 4 or 4s.

I'm quoting what I see other saying, I think the iPad Air and iPhone 5s are awesome devices and if history tells us anything they will get iOS 12.
[doublepost=1497795006][/doublepost]

Maybe so, but Apple also isn't giving users much of an option to stay on an older OS release with added security patches. On macOS, you get security updates for some older versions; on iOS, you almost invariably have to stay on the latest.



That's nonsense. Between Windows 7 and 10, there have been numerous low-level system improvements, such as much broader UEFI support, booting from USB, NVMe, SMB 3, and Windows Subsystem for Linux.

And that's not even looking at higher level stuff.

Apple doesn't want iOS to be fragmented like a certain competitor that's probably why they don't support the previous iOS versions like MacOS. As for Windows well I forgot a few things

 

[cswifx]

Planned obsolescence is an illusion, because older devices will always seem slower in comparison to their other devices. If you bought a laptop in 2009 and tried to run Windows 10 on it, it'll be the same story. The only difference is that it's 1 OS and 1 type of hardware here, which leads people to think that there is 'planned obsolescence' or some kind of conspiracy. It's not. If Apple had to constantly make the older devices run as fast as the newest devices, we'd never move on.

 

[gobikerider]

Planned obsolescence is an illusion, because older devices will always seem slower in comparison to their other devices. If you bought a laptop in 2009 and tried to run Windows 10 on it, it'll be the same story. The only difference is that it's 1 OS and 1 type of hardware here, which leads people to think that there is 'planned obsolescence' or some kind of conspiracy. It's not. If Apple had to constantly make the older devices run as fast as the newest devices, we'd never move on.

Somebody gets it

 

[Vanilla35]

1. Apple execs don't sit in a office all day scheming to rip off people and force "planned obsolescence"
2. The reason older devices don't perform quite as quick as the newer ones is simply because Apple has vastly advanced the target hardware and processing power in the iPhones and iPads since 2013. The newer versions of iOS logically are designed with that hardware in mind so it makes since the old ones would be slower. As for iOS 11 performance, the jury is stil out considering its not even beta 2 let alone 11.3.456
3. The only reason Windows updates support the older hardware and still run decent is because your basic intel CPU hadn't evolved much in the past 8 years. Yah they made some improvements but its not nearly the same magnitude that Apples made in the last 4 years.

This sounds like you don't actually have a reason, and so you just made up a bunch of crap.
[doublepost=1497796299][/doublepost]

Somebody gets it

What about the same hardware with different software? That's the actual scenario which brings people to question it.
[doublepost=1497796847][/doublepost]My hunch about this topic, like most ongoing debates, is that both sides are right. Does apple do it on purpose? Maybe not. Does apple do anything to prevent it from influencing customers in a negative way? No.

 

[cswifx]

What about the same hardware with different software? That's the actual scenario which brings people to question it.

If you compare 'same hardware with different software', every single company that updates their devices is doing planned obsolescence. In fact, Android devices regularly do not receive updates to the newest software, forcing users to buy a new device to receive any updates at all. That's even more worthy of the term 'planned obsolescence', isn't it?

 

[gobikerider]

This sounds like you don't actually have a reason, and so you just made up a bunch of crap.
[doublepost=1497796299][/doublepost]

What about the same hardware with different software? That's the actual scenario which brings people to question it.
[doublepost=1497796847][/doublepost]My hunch about this topic, like most ongoing debates, is that both sides are right. Does apple do it on purpose? Maybe not. Does apple do anything to prevent it from influencing customers in a negative way? No.

Bunch of crap,no its simple logic, old devices run slower then new devices with same iOS. Considering older devices are 3x slower then the newer devices. What do you honestly expect. I have 3 good reasons there

 

[cswifx]

My hunch about this topic, like most ongoing debates, is that both sides are right.

I do agree partially on this. Apple most likely does not intend to deliberately break or slow down older devices, which is why they stop sending updates to devices that are very old (such as migrating to a full 64-bit system for iOS 11). While the older devices may still slow down, it is simply a natural process of a fast paced tech world.

 

[gobikerider]

If you compare 'same hardware with different software', every single company that updates their devices is doing planned obsolescence. In fact, Android devices regularly do not receive updates to the newest software, forcing users to buy a new device to receive any updates at all. That's even more worthy of the term 'planned obsolescence', isn't it?

Real problems above but when your 4 year old iPhone and iPad run a little slower on iOS 11 people start screaming PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE APPLE SUCKS. I don't get it

 

[cswifx]

Real problems above but when your 4 year old iPhone and iPad run a little slower on iOS 11 people start screaming PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE APPLE SUCKS. I don't get it

I think it would be really great if any Apple software engineers could open up a discussion pertaining to this issue with the community, it would really clear up many of the issues people face regarding 'planned obsolescence'.

 

[Vanilla35]

If you compare 'same hardware with different software', every single company that updates their devices is doing planned obsolescence. In fact, Android devices regularly do not receive updates to the newest software, forcing users to buy a new device to receive any updates at all. That's even more worthy of the term 'planned obsolescence', isn't it?

Not trying to pick a fight on nuances here, but I see that differently.

I see not offering any updates as a much more consumer friendly approach. They know that the newer software will not run well on the phone, and so they choose to withhold it. I like that.

Others may say that they don't have the ability to get the latest and greatest features. With apple, they automatically download the newest software version for you (whether you want it or not), and then they pester you constantly about updating. Even asking you to put in your code to update, or hit remind me later below as the only alternative to say no (mind you, there is no "no" option). When you do update, and if you happen to feel like your phone runs much slower than before, and is less stable; well you can't even downgrade afterward. You're now in a situation where you're forced into buying a new phone to have the creature comforts you once had.

One approach prevents disdain and heartache. The other allows for more features, but for those who realize they don't like how much their phone has slowed down, they're forced into buying a brand new device they probably wouldn't have done had it not been for the strongly encouraged update.

 

[gobikerider]

Not trying to pick a fight on nuances here, but I see that differently.

I see not offering any updates as a much more consumer friendly approach. They know that the newer software will not run well on the phone, and they chose to withhold it. I like that.

Others may say that they don't have the ability to get the latest and greatest features. With apple, they automatically download the newest software version for you (whether you want it or not), and then they pester you constantly about updating. Even asking you to put in your code to update, or hit remind me later below as the only alternative to say no (mind you, there is no "no" option). When you do update, and if you happen to feel like your phone runs much slower than before, and is less stable; well you can't even downgrade afterward. You're now in a situation where you're forced into buying a new phone to have the creature comforts you once had.

One approach prevents disdain and heartache. The other allows for more features, but for those who realize they don't like how much their phone has slowed down, they're forced into buying a brand new device they probably wouldn't have done had it not been for the strongly encouraged update.

When a 2 year old phone can't handle the latest Android update and stops getting updates that's disgusting, the iPhones on the other hand can receive min 3 usually 4 iOS updates before slowing down at all.

 

[stulaw11]

Not trying to pick a fight on nuances here, but I see that differently.

I see not offering any updates as a much more consumer friendly approach. They know that the newer software will not run well on the phone, and so they choose to withhold it. I like that.

Others may say that they don't have the ability to get the latest and greatest features. With apple, they automatically download the newest software version for you (whether you want it or not), and then they pester you constantly about updating. Even asking you to put in your code to update, or hit remind me later below as the only alternative to say no (mind you, there is no "no" option). When you do update, and if you happen to feel like your phone runs much slower than before, and is less stable; well you can't even downgrade afterward. You're now in a situation where you're forced into buying a new phone to have the creature comforts you once had.

One approach prevents disdain and heartache. The other allows for more features, but for those who realize they don't like how much their phone has slowed down, they're forced into buying a brand new device they probably wouldn't have done had it not been for the strongly encouraged update.

And then those same people begin b*tching that they are stuck on an old OS without security updates. It's a no win scenario either way for the company.

Supporting the newer software (and security updates) best you can is best practice overall which is what Apple does. Cutting it off like Android leaves MANY older devices vulnerable to exploits and security holes which is the worse of the 2 options.

 

[cswifx]

With apple, they automatically download the newest software version for you (whether you want it or not), and then they pester you constantly about updating. Even asking you to put in your code to update, or hit remind me later below as the only alternative to say no (mind you, there is no "no" option). When you do update, and if you happen to feel like your phone runs much slower than before, and is less stable; well you can't even downgrade afterward.

This, in my opinion, is most likely due to Apple's constant push for the best possible security and privacy on their devices. They are worried about older software being exploited (i.e. Jailbreaking). This is also the reason why most of the time, iOS doesn't get 'widespread' malware attacks targeting the entire ecosystem. It shows they care about their users, while at the same time unfortunately, causing inconveniences for some (typically those who refuse to update their devices, either for keepsake or just generally those who have a negative perception of updates).

Oh, and it makes the little pie charts they always show at WWDC look nicer.

 

[kazmac]

Real problems above but when your 4 year old iPhone and iPad run a little slower on iOS 11 people start screaming PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE APPLE SUCKS. I don't get it

Agree with that last comment. Bless those people who can work with a four year old phone.

I think both sides are right; but I do know for many Mac OS updates my 2010 21.5" went from blazing fast to extremely slow. It seemed to have normalized a bit on El Capitan, but I also understand that some of those upgrades which caused such hiccups in my case may have to do with how the memory was used, and yes, that 2010 has a spinner HDD too.

I am looking forward to seeing how my spinner 2013 27" will run on High Sierra. When I installed 10.12.5 I had hiccups for one day and it righted itself almost immediately. That gives me a lot of hope that Apple is starting to pay attention to their software and hardware again despite not having a dedicated macOS team right now.

As far as iDevices and updates, I may not upgrade my iP7+ to iOS 11 for awhile, primarily because a lot of what I've seen is iPad-centric.

Of course, Apple wants you to upgrade as frequently as possible, it's their bottom line and best interest for you to do so. But I do believe the serious errors they made last year woke them up just a bit to ensure that people get that full bang for the buck again. So I am in the no camp right now.

 

[gobikerider]

This, in my opinion, is most likely due to Apple's constant push for the best possible security and privacy on their devices. They are worried about older software being exploited (i.e. Jailbreaking). This is also the reason why most of the time, iOS doesn't get 'widespread' malware attacks targeting the entire ecosystem. It shows they care about their users, while at the same time unfortunately, causing inconveniences for some (typically those who refuse to update their devices, either for keepsake or just generally those who have a negative perception of updates).

Oh, and it makes the little pie charts they always show at WWDC look nicer.

I live for that pie chart

 

[Vanilla35]

When a 2 year old phone can't handle the latest Android update and stops getting updates that's disgusting, the iPhones on the other hand can receive min 3 usually 4 iOS updates before slowing down at all.

I notice the difference in speed immediately, and I've been through this year after year with several devices. It depends on the person (I notice slight differences very easily), but in my personal (picky) opinion, an iPhone is good for 1 OS beyond the current OS it ships with. After that it starts to slow down to the point where I have to deliberately slow down my taps, in order to ensure animations finish, and things render properly. 2 OS updates is fine (not good), after that it's annoying (to the point of buying a new device). Just my perspective.

I'm a power user though. If you seriously think a phone doesn't slowdown after 4 iOS updates, then you must only use your phone for the calendar app.

And then those same people begin b*tching that they are stuck on an old OS without security updates. It's a no win scenario either way for the company.

Supporting the newer software (and security updates) best you can is best practice overall.

I highly doubt that people are going to be up in arms and bitch about something they are not even really aware of. What percentage of the userbase cares about security patches? 99% of people don't even know there is one until they receive a notification. People get all up in arms when a change happens that negatively effects them - like what we're talking about here.

However I do agree, it's a lose lose situation. Either way, it feels contrived to me. Like I said, I prefer a lack of change, to prevent heartache. There have been a few reports (see famous "security update" that broke facetime for iOS 6 users) that lead me to believe whether it's the best practice or not, that there have been "mishaps" involved.

I am of the belief that whenever an action is able to be performed, someone (entity or otherwise) will inject their own personal objectives in there, to a certain degree. That is why I think no change is better than change. As long as people are currently happy with what they have. If they're not happy, they have the freedom to spend their own money, for an update, or change.

 

[gobikerider]

Agree with that last comment. Bless those people who can work with a four year old phone.

I think both sides are right; but I do know for many Mac OS updates my 2010 21.5" went from blazing fast to extremely slow. It seemed to have normalized a bit on El Capitan, but I also understand that some of those upgrades which caused such hiccups in my case may have to do with how the memory was used, and yes, that 2010 has a spinner HDD too.

I am looking forward to seeing how my spinner 2013 27" will run on High Sierra. When I installed 10.12.5 I had hiccups for one day and it righted itself almost immediately. That gives me a lot of hope that Apple is starting to pay attention to their software and hardware again despite not having a dedicated macOS team right now.

As far as iDevices and updates, I may not upgrade my iP7+ to iOS 11 for awhile, primarily because a lot of what I've seen is iPad-centric.

Of course, Apple wants you to upgrade as frequently as possible, it's their bottom line and best interest for you to do so. But I do believe the serious errors they made last year woke them up just a bit to ensure that people get that full bang for the buck again. So I am in the no camp right now.

Anything with a spinner hdd is going to be painfully slow these days, you gotta get a ssd man.

 

[cswifx]

I live for that pie chart

Here you go

 

[stulaw11]

The scarier part not shown in that pie chart is that while 6.6% are on Android 7.0, 31.2% are running 6.0:

30.2% are still on 5.0 and under!! Imagine the security issues and holes that are there on 30.2% of 2 BILLION active Android devices for on OS not updated for 2-3 years (8.0 was just announced) or more as many of those are 4.0 and even 2.0!!!

That's 604 MILLION people on 5.0 or less and vulnerable.

Apple's method may not be the best but it is WAY better to support devices as long as they possibly can on the current OS.

 

[kazmac]

Anything with a spinner hdd is going to be painfully slow these days, you gotta get a ssd man.

In general I'd agree, but my 2013 27" with a spinner is doing quite well considering it's four year old tech (a two year old build).

My next Mac will have an SSD though, but I probably won't be thinking of that for another 12-18 months. No need for what I do, and how nicely the current version of Sierra seems to work with a spinner inside.

 

[gobikerider]

I notice the difference in speed immediately, and I've been through this year after year with several devices. It depends on the person (I notice slight differences very easily), but in my personal (picky) opinion, an iPhone is good for 1 OS beyond the current OS it ships with. After that it starts to slow down to the point where I have to deliberately slow down my taps, in order to ensure animations finish, and things render properly.

I'm a power user though. If you seriously think a phone doesn't slowdown after 3 iOS updates, then you must only use your phone for the calendar app.



I agree, it's a lose lose situation. None the less, it feels contrived to me.

Phone: texting, twitter, safari, banking, music, podcasts, Reddit, outlook (Casual )
iPad: Safari, notability, iBooks, podcasts, music, Reddit, hidden folks, swift playgrounds, outlook (productive)

On my iPhone 5s, iOS 8 was worse then 7 I think everyone noticed that one, iOS 9 fixed that though, iOS 10 improved, iOS 11 looks to be identical to iOS 10 if not better . As a casual user put iOS 10 and iOS 11 on my iPhone 5s I probably wouldn't notice any difference in performance tbh. On my iphone 7 well iOS 11 looks to run better then iOS 10 did for that guy.

iPad wise, I used my Air 2 through iOS 8, 9, and most of 10 10 was the best performing of the 3. On my new Pro I don't think it's even bothered running iOS 10 and I don't think it'll be bothered by iOS 11 either, iOS 12 I think is when the true power of this A10X will start being utilized, I mean from what little Ive seen iOS 11 beta 1 runs smooth as butter on the iPad Air 2 let alone this monster
[doublepost=1497798648][/doublepost]

In general I'd agree, but my 2013 27" with a spinner is doing quite well considering it's four year old tech (a two year old build).

My next Mac will have an SSD though, but I probably won't be thinking of that for another 12-18 months. No need for what I do, and how nicely the current version of Sierra seems to work with a spinner inside.

Hopefully AFS in High Sierra fixes the spinner issue with HDD
[doublepost=1497798684][/doublepost]

Here you go

Android yikes