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MP 1,1-5,1 Are there any significant differences between an upgraded 4,1 and a true 2012 5,1?

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3118

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Oct 1, 2019
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Looking to purchase a used Mac Pro and I’ve heard that there’s no limitations to an modded/upgraded 4,1 and a true 5,1. Not sure how true that is but it seems like everyone who has a true 5,1 2012 specifically states it and it sells for about $200-300 more than a modded one with identical specs. Are there any limitations to getting one over the other?
Thanks
 
Well, one item to think is about is the processor tray; they are not completely compatible between the 2009 and the 2010/12.

If I were going to buy one of the three today I would go for the 2012 simply because it is the newest of the three models. The extra money is worth it.
 
The only real difference is the 4,1 dual CPU used an unlidded processor. there is no performance difference in an upgraded 4,1 vs an upgraded 5,1.
 
If you're shopping for a dual and plan to upgrade the CPU, it's either pay now or pay later.

As mentioned, the 4,1 dual needs delidded processors, while the dual 5,1 uses processors with the conventional IHS.

Using the X5690 as an example, a pair of lidded ones runs ~$160-180 on Ebay. Already delidded is ~$250 from a couple of different sellers(ignoring a few over $300). There are also services that charge $60-70 to delid a pair of processors that you supply them.

I settled for a "real" 5,1 in a sort of beat up case that didn't cost me a ton more than a perfect 4,1 dual(I bought mine ~2 years ago). It functions fine-I just have to ignore the bent handle. Also, it's worth mentioning that mine is a 2010 model but made in 2012. With a CPU upgrade, as far as I know there's no functional difference between it and a "real" mid-2012 model.
 
Ludacrisvp said:
The only real difference is the 4,1 dual CPU used an unlidded processor. there is no performance difference in an upgraded 4,1 vs an upgraded 5,1.
Click to expand...
Not just, MP4,1 backplanes and CPU trays are not interchangeable with MP5,1.

For a single CPU MP4,1 and MP5,1, the only difference is the SMC, 1.39f5 for MP4,1 and 1.39f11 for a real MP5,1.

For a dual CPU tray, the MP4,1 tray use lidless Xeons with a CPU socket without lock, while the MP5,1 one use a normal socket exactly like the single CPU version. Heatsinks of dual tray MP4,1 are different from the MP5,1 ones too.
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bunnspecial said:
If you're shopping for a dual and plan to upgrade the CPU, it's either pay now or pay later.

As mentioned, the 4,1 dual needs delidded processors, while the dual 5,1 uses processors with the conventional IHS.

Using the X5690 as an example, a pair of lidded ones runs ~$160-180 on Ebay. Already delidded is ~$250 from a couple of different sellers(ignoring a few over $300). There are also services that charge $60-70 to delid a pair of processors that you supply them.

I settled for a "real" 5,1 in a sort of beat up case that didn't cost me a ton more than a perfect 4,1 dual(I bought mine ~2 years ago). It functions fine-I just have to ignore the bent handle. Also, it's worth mentioning that mine is a 2010 model but made in 2012. With a CPU upgrade, as far as I know there's no functional difference between it and a "real" mid-2012 model.
Click to expand...
MP4,1 SMC version has various little management bugs, like the high speed of PCIe fan when you have a upgraded GPU or a PCIe card with high power consumption, that Apple corrected with 1.39f11.
 
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3118 said:
Looking to purchase a used Mac Pro and I’ve heard that there’s no limitations to an modded/upgraded 4,1 and a true 5,1. Not sure how true that is but it seems like everyone who has a true 5,1 2012 specifically states it and it sells for about $200-300 more than a modded one with identical specs. Are there any limitations to getting one over the other?
Thanks
Click to expand...
If you want a single CPU Mac Pro, you can buy a MP4,1 and use the money with upgrades, but if you need a dual CPU tray, go for a MP5,1. Almost everyone that gonna upgrade a dual CPU tray find headaches and spend more than the expected.
 
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If you're looking to just buy a box to slap a GPU and SSD into and run Mojave, I'd look for a 5,1. they're more likely to have a basic wifi card (base 4,1s only came with BT) and you won't need to bother with flashing firmware, and you won't have the audio issues associated with the 55xx series cpus.

If you're going to be maxing everything out anyways, 802.11 ac wifi, x5690 cpus etc. and you're comfortable flashing firmware and delidding cpus, then a 4,1 will be just as effective with a slighlty lower starting cost.
 
Kaspin said:
If you're looking to just buy a box to slap a GPU and SSD into and run Mojave, I'd look for a 5,1. they're more likely to have a basic wifi card (base 4,1s only came with BT) and you won't need to bother with flashing firmware, and you won't have the audio issues associated with the 55xx series cpus.
Click to expand...

What kind of audio issues do the Xeon 55xx series processors have?
 
tsialex said:
MP4,1 SMC version has various little management bugs, like the high speed of PCIe fan when you have a upgraded GPU or a PCIe card with high power consumption, that Apple corrected with 1.39f11.
Click to expand...

The 4,1 has never been updated with 1.39f11, right? That's a 5,1 thing?
 
fatespawn said:
The 4,1 has never been updated with 1.39f11, right? That's a 5,1 thing?
Click to expand...
Apple never released any SMC updates for MP4,1 or MP5,1.

If Apple released an update for MP5,1 SMC, we could use it to update the Renesas micro controller and then make all boards MP5,1 equivalent. The micro controller can't be dumped, it's a security feature, but can be updated.
 
bunnspecial said:
With a CPU upgrade, as far as I know there's no functional difference between it and a "real" mid-2012 model.
Click to expand...

This is correct. the 2012 models were nothing more than a spec bump for the included CPUs, and even then only the low and high models were upgraded... the 2010 midrange and 2012 midrange were both dual hex-core 2.66ghz X5650s.
 
2009 and 2010/2012 have several differences:

  • CPUs: Nehalem for 2009, Nehalem and Westmere for 2010/2012
  • Same single tray CPU design with different SMC version from MP4,1 to MP5,1
  • Different dual tray design, different sockets, heatsink base, and SMC version from MP4,1 to MP5,1
  • Backplanes of MP4,1 have SMC 1.39f5, MP5,1 have SMC 1.39f11
  • SMC corrections for 2010/2012 models (MP4,1 and MP5,1 have two SMC controllers, one in the backplane and another in the CPU tray)
  • GPUs: GT120/HD 4870 for 2009 models and HD 5770/HD 5870 for 2010/2012
  • AirPort Extreme: no AirPort Extreme for the basic model 2009 and BCM94321MC for 2009 models with Wi-Fi, BCM94322MC for 2010/2012 (the Apple AirPort Extreme upgrade kit is BCM94322MC, some late production MP4,1s have it too).
  • revised PSU for 2010/2012 with different SKUs, with very improved ACBel models with the newer SKUs. 2009 models with the old ACBel SKU are prone to fail/bulge some of the capacitors.
 
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Thanks for all the replies. I guess I was wondering if I would be handcuffing myself with future limitations with os (such as Catalina) if I went with an upgraded 4,1 vs an actual 5,1? Seems like most of the differences are technical and not related to function or being able to run future os?
Thanks again
 
Catalina blocks MP5,1 and MP4,1, won't matter if it's a MP4,1, a flashed MP5,1 or a real MP5,1.

  • MP4,1 has support up to El Capitan.
  • MP4,1>5,1 and real MP5,1s both have support up to Mojave, if you replace the original GPU for a METAL supported one and do all the needed firmware upgrades.
Catalina is unsupported, but works if you upgrade the AirPortExtreme and use the -no_compat_check bootarg. To install without hacking you to do it via a supported Mac or use the VMWare Fusion direct hardware trick.
 
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There's been a recent influx of people looking to pickup MP4,1/MP5,1 machines so figured this is worth mentioning... there are several audio and video specific software vendors/manufacturers that are planning on making MP5,1 obsolete in their support list and it will be removed from certification "soon".

I assume this means after Catalina is released, but cannot yet confirm. Also would assume 1-2 years on Mojave as-is would be "safe" for compatibility/support without upgrading OS. One software manufacturer cited EOL of MP5,1 processors from Intel and specifically said those will no longer be supported.

This likely means nothing for general use, but if you run into issues that require support/troubleshooting you will be on your own.
 
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Wow
bsbeamer said:
There's been a recent influx of people looking to pickup MP4,1/MP5,1 machines so figured this is worth mentioning... there are several audio and video specific software vendors/manufacturers that are planning on making MP5,1 obsolete in their support list and it will be removed from certification "soon".

I assume this means after Catalina is released, but cannot yet confirm. Also would assume 1-2 years on Mojave as-is would be "safe" for compatibility/support without upgrading OS. One software manufacturer cited EOL of MP5,1 processors from Intel and specifically said those will no longer be supported.

This likely means nothing for general use, but if you run into issues that require support/troubleshooting you will be on your own.
Click to expand...

Wow, I never heard that before. This machine will primarily be used for audio production.
 
3118 said:
So my only options would be the trash can or the 6k cheese grater?
Click to expand...
Only if your workflow requires MassiveX or of apps/plugins that announced required AVX support for next releases.

Btw, most people that work with audio/video editing never are in the bleeding edge of software/hardware interfaces, some stick with what are working stable for years and years - there are lot's of people still using Snow Leopard with apps/hardware interfaces that require it…

MP5,1 will be officially supported with Mojave security software updates for at least 2, maybe 2 and half years. For most people that don't need MassiveX and future software versions, it's a non issue until Mojave support ends.
 
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3118 said:
Wow


Wow, I never heard that before. This machine will primarily be used for audio production.
Click to expand...
5,1 is excellent for audio... take the advice and spend a bit more to get a real 5,1 dual CPU machine and upgrade it with a pair of X5680s and an inexpensive Metal-compatible GPU (I run Gigabyte RX460s in my two 12-cores) for an excellent audio machine. As tsialex notes, the only software requiring AVX to date is NI's Massive X, and there are so many other options.

I run Digital Performer, NI Komplete Ultimate Collector's Edition (everything including the original Massive, just not Massive X), Spectrasonics, Ivory, BFD, a bunch of Kontakt libraries and a plethora of plugins to great effect on a 12 core 5,1 with 4k monitor under Mojave. My studio Mac is managed like an appliance; upgrades scheduled at extended intervals. I expect it (or my spare if/when it dies) to do the job nicely for at least several more years.

Follow Craigslist and you might find a steal. I did recently: 8-core 2010 5,1 $150. I couldn't afford to not buy it. It is now my spare 12 core.
 
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