ARM Mac for photography?

[high heaven]

It seems Apple is planning to transit from x86 to ARM after 2021. I'm kinda excited but on the other hand, I'm quite concerned about it. Well. obviosuly because of its performance and compatibility which we don't know yet anything about their ARM Mac.

TBH, it wouldn't be a huge problem cause photography software doesn't require a high spec computer unless you are dealing with massive files or a single file with immense size. Adobe already made Photoshop for iOS so it should work with ARM Mac.

But I'm using Capture One Pro and so far, they don't have any plans to support ARM Mac. Also, I have no idea about the performance which is one of my concerns with ARM. I'm using Photoshop with 10~40gb of PSB files. I would be happy with a new iMac but It would be great if Apple releases a better desktop, like xMac at around $3000.

At this point, I have no idea about ARM Mac as Apple didn't announce anything but I wonder what you think about ARM Mac for photography? If both C1P and Photoshop fully supported on ARM Mac, I'm in. Otherwise, nope.

 

[Falhófnir]

No one will have official plans to support Arm Macs yet because they aren't official yet. I would expect a slew of releases and 'coming soon' announcements after the WWDC keynote announcement (maybe even during the keynote for big players like Adobe).

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

I do think that it won’t take developers long to migrate to ARMacOS (I’m reaching for new terminology, lol). Apple customers are willing to open their wallets, so I can’t imagine any of the companies with active projects today just saying no thanks.

That said, the iPad has been a more than capable handler of larger photo files for a few years now, even things in the RAW format are handled with relative ease. The iPad is limited by a thin chassis and no active cooling, so whatever Apple decides to go with on their desktop chip should only be better. One thing to remember is that Apple’s A-series chips have a pretty wide memory bus and relatively strong GPUs for the mobile segment. Paired with Metal, I think it’s where Apple has some advantages, as they control the hardware and software. Apple has for a long time insisted on super fast storage on all their iOS devices, which gives another perceived boost.

The bigger negatives would be no BootCamp, and likely no more memory upgrades. Maybe they can offer something on the latter, but current memory standards probably wouldn’t provide the bandwidth that Apple can do with the iPad Pro and its wider memory bus.

 

[stillcrazyman]

I’m excited to see where Apple goes with their ARM designs. I don’t really see much of a problem with software not being available. It might be that some of the smaller vendors won’t recompile their apps. The more popular apps will for the most part.

 

[iMacedonian]

Can anyone explain the difference between ARM and x86? I'm a noob in this area

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Can anyone explain the difference between ARM and x86? I'm a noob in this area

That is a pretty big subject to ask about! Basically, they are both CPU architectures, but they are not the same CPU architecture. That means all software that was compiled for x86 will not work “natively” on ARM, and vice versa. It is possible to “emulate” the environment of one with the other, but this comes at a performance penalty. Ideally, the makers of your favorite software will need to recompile their x86 apps/programs to work ”natively” on ARM. It comes down to the tools Apple offers developers, and the developers willingness to invest their time and money doing so. Up until now, x86 has been the more powerful of the 2 architectures. ARM has had the low-power advantage, while x86 can scale up into high-power scenarios. The question is going to be, just how powerful can Apple make their own ARM CPUs? They’ve done great things so far, but that’s been limited to low-power applications like iPhones and iPads.

We saw a similar transition back when Apple went from PowerPC to x86, though I think Apple has probably learned a thing or two since then. Back then, we were mostly using single core CPUs, or maybe dual core if you were well heeled. Today, 6 to 8 core CPUs are commonplace, so that may help with any emulating during the transition. If there is anything I’m excited about, it’s seeing what Apple can really do with their custom ARM architecture in higher-power situations.

 

[Ray2]

My iPad is ARM. Lightroom CC runs just fine. At least on par with Classic on my 6-Core, 3.2GHz 6-core Intel Core i7 mini, perhaps better if anything.

 

[dwig]

...
The bigger negatives would be no BootCamp, ...

Apple's move to ARM does not preclude their developing an ARM BootCamp nor preclude possible 3rd party equivalents since MS already has an ARM variant of Windows. It is just that BootCamp on an ARM Mac would be restricted to an ARM variant of Windows.

Windows for ARM includes x86 emulation, though it's limited to supporting 32bit x86 apps in its present release. Whether Apple invests development effort into including x86 emulation in their ARM OS is yet to be revealed. If they do, it will push to hardware requirements up a bit as they will have to support 64bit x86 apps if such emulation is to be of any real value.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Apple's move to ARM does not preclude their developing an ARM BootCamp nor preclude possible 3rd party equivalents since MS already has an ARM variant of Windows. It is just that BootCamp on an ARM Mac would be restricted to an ARM variant of Windows.

Windows for ARM includes x86 emulation, though it's limited to supporting 32bit x86 apps in its present release. Whether Apple invests development effort into including x86 emulation in their ARM OS is yet to be revealed. If they do, it will push to hardware requirements up a bit as they will have to support 64bit x86 apps if such emulation is to be of any real value.

Yes, though I question how much value Windows on ARM would bring. It’s another case of minimal native software being available to the user, and I suspect the desire for developers to port to ARM Windows would be even less than ARMacOS. It’s the problem Windows has always had—it’s biggest appeal is legacy support, and Windows on ARM really hurts the cause. If you’re willing to give up x86 support, Windows doesn’t appear to be the OS of choice—it’s Android, iOS, MacOS, or even Linux. So while legacy programs might be possible, would the expereince actually be worth it? Also, currently, I don’t believe you can download and/or get a license for ARM Windows 10. MS would have to open that up.

Granted, I’m assuming most BootCamp users are either doing it to play games, or to run that program that is only available on Windows. Effectively, I think ARMacOS would be the end of BootCamp. I would be curious to see how VMs will work, though.

 

[Meuti]

That is a pretty big subject to ask about! (...)

Thanks a ton for this very down to earth explanation.

 

[MCAsan]

My iPad is ARM. Lightroom CC runs just fine. At least on par with Classic on my 6-Core, 3.2GHz 6-core Intel Core i7 mini, perhaps better if anything.

But I want to run LrC on my iPad, not Lr lite. So the question is when, if ever, will Adobe make that happen.

 

[Ray2]

Hopefully never. Classic coding is a mess. What we will likely get is LR Lite with enhanced capabilities. I am far more DAM focused than editing. Editing packages are a dime a dozen. Even with a substantially diluted Classic DAM, CC would still be far better than anything else out there.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Yes, I think your really old programs and programs with a long history of incremental updates are not going to transition to native. LR classic has been a slow evolution over the years, and it brings legacy baggage with it that makes it less efficient. I believe “new LR” parted ways with the legacy code, perhaps either in preparation for this transition, or to prepare for the clean break that Apple made with 32bit in Catalina and earlier with iOS. I suspect Apple’s break with 32bit apps is somehow in preparation for this ARM transition.

 

[MCAsan]

It should be interesting when Big Sur and Rosetta 2 are released this fall. Just maybe we will see some old x86 Mac apps running on IOS and some finally rewritten to run on IOS, IPadOS, and Big Sur.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Well, Apple debuted their big switch to ARM. They said Adobe is already working on CC programs. They demoed Photoshop and Lightroom, on what I believe was a Mac with the A12Z and 16GB of RAM (it stands to reason they demoed it all on the same dev-kit mini). I believe the PS file was heavily layered and something like 3GB in size.

 

[Falhófnir]

Well, Apple debuted their big switch to ARM. They said Adobe is already working on CC programs. They demoed Photoshop and Lightroom, on what I believe was a Mac with the A12Z and 16GB of RAM (it stands to reason they demoed it all on the same dev-kit mini). I believe the PS file was heavily layered and something like 3GB in size.

Yeah the A12Z was a surprise, I think most of us were expecting a custom Mac part, so the fact it runs so well on the iPad chip is pretty impressive, think the actual Mac silicon is going to pack some stonking performance at every level!

 

[sfwalter]

Yeah the A12Z was a surprise, I think most of us were expecting a custom Mac part, so the fact it runs so well on the iPad chip is pretty impressive, think the actual Mac silicon is going to pack some stonking performance at every level!

This is only for the dev hardware. Who knows what sort of chip an iMac or iMac Pro would use. For this we will need to wait a while. If rumors ending being correct the next iMac would still be Intel based.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

I totally believe Apple has an ace up its sleeves and won’t talk new SOCs until their first ARMac reveal. Until then, they get to do some extra promoting of their A12Z chip found in the iPadPro. I’m assuming this MacOS version is tweaked for maybe faster clocks with better cooling. The extra RAM likely also has an impact. Their demo had all the apps already open. Maybe that was for faster demoing, maybe that was to hide slower load times?

 

[gkarris]

I've been using 16Gigs RAM in my Gaming PC for the past 4 years.

I wouldn't get ANY computer which has less than 16Gigs right now..

(okay, I got a Chromebook earlier this year on massive sale, but that has 8Gigs RAM instead of the measly 4Gigs they normally come with).

Hopefully ARM macs will have the option to go to 24Gigs or 32 Gigs RAM...

 

[Clix Pix]

In late 2018 when I was preparing to buy the 15" MBP I'm using right now, I already was looking ahead to the things I would be doing with it, including editing/post-processing images shot with my digital cameras. I was planning to buy a new camera and although I hadn't yet made up my mind which one yet, I knew that it would have a lot more megapixels and higher resolution than what I had been using and therefore would require more from the machine. I went with 32 GB RAM and it has been great, so for me, anything less now would not be satisfactory in any computer that I was planning to use for a lot of high-resolution image post-processing.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

I've been using 16Gigs RAM in my Gaming PC for the past 4 years.

I wouldn't get ANY computer which has less than 16Gigs right now..

(okay, I got a Chromebook earlier this year on massive sale, but that has 8Gigs RAM instead of the measly 4Gigs they normally come with).

Hopefully ARM macs will have the option to go to 24Gigs or 32 Gigs RAM...

I don’t see why not. The demos just appeared to be on the dev kit, which has 16GB RAM. I wonder if that will be the ARMac’s starting point going forward?

 

[stillcrazyman]

I have noticed that many of the major apps used for editing photos use the Open GL/CL graphics drivers. ON1. Capture One Pro, Luminar and others.
Apple deprecated (ended support) for it last year if I recall. For the new ARM systems, I would hope that new code based on the Metal system gets into our favorite apps. Otherwise, we may have to find alternatives.

 

[whiteonline]

I have noticed that many of the major apps used for editing photos use the Open GL/CL graphics drivers. ON1. Capture One Pro, Luminar and others.
Apple deprecated (ended support) for it last year if I recall. For the new ARM systems, I would hope that new code based on the Metal system gets into our favorite apps. Otherwise, we may have to find alternatives.

I'm really curious about Capture One. I seriously doubt they have the relationship with Apple enjoyed by Adobe. My guess is Adobe will charge on with adding features to the new iPad compatible Photoshop/Lightroom CC (perhaps was the plan all along). The "classic" programs will stay exclusive to x86 platforms. I'm probably wrong though.
Phase One may take some time to deploy something that will work with the new processor - almost certain of that.

ON1 and Skylum have yet another opportunity to replay the beta hype cash cycle.

 

[Analog Kid]

I have noticed that many of the major apps used for editing photos use the Open GL/CL graphics drivers. ON1. Capture One Pro, Luminar and others.
Apple deprecated (ended support) for it last year if I recall. For the new ARM systems, I would hope that new code based on the Metal system gets into our favorite apps. Otherwise, we may have to find alternatives.

I wish I better understood the OpenCL whiplash. Maybe time is just compressing as I get older, but it didn’t seem like a lot of time passed between Apple spearheading OpenCL an abandoning it...
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I'm really curious about Capture One. I seriously doubt they have the relationship with Apple enjoyed by Adobe. My guess is Adobe will charge on with adding features to the new iPad compatible Photoshop/Lightroom CC (perhaps was the plan all along). The "classic" programs will stay exclusive to x86 platforms. I'm probably wrong though.
Phase One may take some time to deploy something that will work with the new processor - almost certain of that.

ON1 and Skylum have yet another opportunity to replay the beta hype cash cycle.

I’m curious too. I think Phase One picked up a rush of Aperture refugees when Catalina launched— maybe that will encourage them to nurture those users.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

I would suspect that most active Mac software will see a shift to native ARM. Apple said with the latest developer kit, you develop one program and it will work on both ARM and Intel Macs. They also said converting your (= developer) program should only take a couple days—though this one I didn’t detect as much assurance, nor did they give any examples. Metal has been Apple’s preferred hardware API since late High Sierra, so I hope devs saw this one coming.