Best MacBook Pro for no PWM, anyone had problems with the new 14"?

[MBPUser21]

I've ordered the new 14" MacBook Pro which is coming tomorrow (to replace my mid-2014 MBP which is on its way out) but am now debating whether to keep it or not, it's from a store where you can't try it before returning. I've read a couple of posts from people getting eye strain/headaches from the new models due to PWM. I suffer from daily headaches and had to return the iPhone X because it made them a lot worse, when ordering this new laptop I didn't think about PWM because I thought it was just associated with OLED screens, which it turns out isn't the case. I feel like my only options would be to get an external monitor with no flickering to use with the MBP or return it and buy an older model that doesn't use PWM, which I'm slightly gutted by because I was looking forward to it arriving but with how sensitive I am to screens anyway I'm not sure I want to risk it. Has anyone else noticed increased eye strain, headache, etc with the new model, I spend basically all day on my laptop so would be interested in knowing whether many have had a problem?

This an article comparing PWM - https://www.notebookcheck.net/PWM-Ranking-Notebooks-Smartphones-and-Tablets-with-PWM.163979.0.html

 

[SpotOnT]

From what I understand, the people complaining about eye strain on the new MBP are finding the problem is with the screen coating/layering. They say that there is some manufacturing defect in the coating or screen layers on some units that make things feel out of focus or difficult to see at certain angles, causing them eye strain. Exchanging their "bad" unit with a new one seems to solve the problem for them, again suggesting the problem is not PWM. In short, I have not read about a lot of problems with PWM on the new MBP.

That being said, the new MBP does use PWM at a very high frequency, so it is possible that a very few number of people might have a problem with it. It is, however, many times better than the PWM on the iPhone, so even if you have problems with the iPhone, you might still be fine with the MBP.

If the PWM is a problem for your, the current LCD screen on the M1 MacBook Air does not use any PWM.

 

[Sanpete]

You'll have to try it yourself to know. Some who have had trouble with other screens don't with this one, and others do. Are you buying from an authorized reseller in the US? If so, they have to give you at least two weeks to return it. A similar policy applies in some other countries.

That being said, the new MBP does use PWM at a very high frequency, so it is possible that a very few number of people might have a problem with it.

At near 15000Hz, it's probably not possible. Quite possible that coatings or temporal dithering or some other thing is bothering them, though, as you say.

 

[Parisi]

From what I understand, the people complaining about eye strain on the new MBP are finding the problem is with the screen coating/layering. They say that there is some manufacturing defect in the coating or screen layers on some units that make things feel out of focus or difficult to see at certain angles, causing them eye strain. Exchanging their "bad" unit with a new one seems to solve the problem for them, again suggesting the problem is not PWM. In short, I have not read about a lot of problems with PWM on the new MBP.

That being said, the new MBP does use PWM at a very high frequency, so it is possible that a very few number of people might have a problem with it. It is, however, many times better than the PWM on the iPhone, so even if you have problems with the iPhone, you might still be fine with the MBP.

If the PWM is a problem for your, the current LCD screen on the M1 MacBook Air does not use any PWM.

Screen coating? Unless I see two units side by side and a difference I say that's non sense. It is very likely just a variation in the display calibration screen uniformity or placebo.

 

[prism]

From what I understand, the people complaining about eye strain on the new MBP are finding the problem is with the screen coating/layering. They say that there is some manufacturing defect in the coating or screen layers on some units that make things feel out of focus or difficult to see at certain angles, causing them eye strain. Exchanging their "bad" unit with a new one seems to solve the problem for them, again suggesting the problem is not PWM. In short, I have not read about a lot of problems with PWM on the new MBP.

That being said, the new MBP does use PWM at a very high frequency, so it is possible that a very few number of people might have a problem with it. It is, however, many times better than the PWM on the iPhone, so even if you have problems with the iPhone, you might still be fine with the MBP.

If the PWM is a problem for your, the current LCD screen on the M1 MacBook Air does not use any PWM.

Not true, the latest MBA display does exhibit pwm at screen brightnesses < 50%

 

[AJTC]

As a person who suffers from PWM I got my 14” MacBook Pro a week ago and it feels nothing like the iPhone X or iPhone 13. First of all it doesn’t cause migraines for me. It also doesn’t strain my eyes or make them water.

I’m having an issue though and I’m not sure of the cause yet. I’m getting bloodshot eyes while using the MacBook but it doesn’t feel like eye strain. If anything maybe I’m not blinking properly with this screen and my eyes are dry which is the opposite effect to the OLED iPhones.

I also just had surgery with a general anaesthetic 2 days before I got the MacBook and I’ve been dehydrated so I’m thinking that could’ve been a contributing factor. I’m now on a break from the MacBook trying to let the bloodshot eyes clear up and try it again this week now that my diet is back to normal.

I hope it’s a little help to you that it’s a different experience to the OLED iPhones but I wish I could say for sure. Searching this forum it doesn’t seem like the PWM in these MacBooks are causing issues for people so I’m still optimistic.

 

[MBPUser21]

As a person who suffers from PWM I got my 14” MacBook Pro a week ago and it feels nothing like the iPhone X or iPhone 13. First of all it doesn’t cause migraines for me. It also doesn’t strain my eyes or make them water.

I’m having an issue though and I’m not sure of the cause yet. I’m getting bloodshot eyes while using the MacBook but it doesn’t feel like eye strain. If anything maybe I’m not blinking properly with this screen and my eyes are dry which is the opposite effect to the OLED iPhones.

I also just had surgery with a general anaesthetic 2 days before I got the MacBook and I’ve been dehydrated so I’m thinking that could’ve been a contributing factor. I’m now on a break from the MacBook trying to let the bloodshot eyes clear up and try it again this week now that my diet is back to normal.

I hope it’s a little help to you that it’s a different experience to the OLED iPhones but I wish I could say for sure. Searching this forum it doesn’t seem like the PWM in these MacBooks are causing issues for people so I’m still optimistic.

Thank you, I received it earlier today & haven’t set it up because didn’t want to disqualify it for a return so just looked at the start up screen for a while but unfortunately got the same kind of migraine I had with the OLED screen shortly after, will try again tomorrow to see if it was a coincidence but am thinking I might go for the 13” MBP M1 instead because the hz is higher & apparently there’s no PWM above 49% brightness although am a bit gutted about losing the pro chip, cores & sd slot, especially when the 13” with 16GB is only a little less expensive. I really hope it works out for you & it isn’t the laptop causing your problems 🤞

 

[SpotOnT]

At near 15000Hz, it's probably not possible. Quite possible that coatings or temporal dithering or some other thing is bothering them, though, as you say.

Agreed, the number of people sensitive to PWM at 15,000 Hz must be incredibly small. Laboratory studies (from the likes of Bullough et al), however, are showing that there are a set of people who can detect PWM up to 10,000 Hz and some were even able to detect PWM up to 25,000 Hz. I have also met people who have had problems with PWM at levels around 10,000 Hz and I just don't want to discount their experience.

But ya, most people have a bad association of PWM, thanks to the iPhone, and they should be fine with the MBP. IEEE standards list light sources with modulation above 3,000 Hz as "flicker-free".

Not true, the latest MBA display does exhibit pwm at screen brightnesses < 50%

I know that the notebookcheck review uses the word PWM in their write-up of the M1 MBA (although to their credit it is under the heading PWM/Flickering and when they list the results in their table, they put a ? after the value), but looking at the shape of the sine wave they are measuring and considering that they are talking about a frequency of over 100,000 Hz, that is almost certainly screen flickering from the panel itself rather than PWM (an intentional design choice to limit screen brightness through strobing).

Can screen flickering pose a problem for some people? Sure, although probably not at those frequencies. Am I hiding behind semantics? That is not my intention. PWM is a real problem for a significant number of people, especially at the levels used on the iPhones. It is also an intentional design choice and is something that manufactures can design around. In the case of the M1 MBA though, it is almost certainly not a design choice, it is pretty inconceivable that it can be detected by the human eye, and I think it is important to keep the discussion of PWM on target, as this is an issue that Apple does needs to address (or at least provide alternative options).

 

[AJTC]

Thank you, I received it earlier today & haven’t set it up because didn’t want to disqualify it for a return so just looked at the start up screen for a while but unfortunately got the same kind of migraine I had with the OLED screen shortly after, will try again tomorrow to see if it was a coincidence but am thinking I might go for the 13” MBP M1 instead because the hz is higher & apparently there’s no PWM above 49% brightness although am a bit gutted about losing the pro chip, cores & sd slot, especially when the 13” with 16GB is only a little less expensive. I really hope it works out for you & it isn’t the laptop causing your problems 🤞

That’s the thing, I love this laptop so I really want it to work out. The screen is gorgeous, the battery life is insane after the 2020 Intel model, it runs cool, the notch is a non issue and the bigger screen is noticeable.

Apple’s return period at the moment is extended until January so if you bought from Apple you should have a similar return window. That’s why I’m hoping to see how it goes over time.

 

[SpotOnT]

Thank you, I received it earlier today & haven’t set it up because didn’t want to disqualify it for a return so just looked at the start up screen for a while but unfortunately got the same kind of migraine I had with the OLED screen shortly after, will try again tomorrow to see if it was a coincidence but am thinking I might go for the 13” MBP M1 instead because the hz is higher & apparently there’s no PWM above 49% brightness although am a bit gutted about losing the pro chip, cores & sd slot, especially when the 13” with 16GB is only a little less expensive. I really hope it works out for you & it isn’t the laptop causing your problems 🤞

Do keep us posted.

Also, you can probably set up the MBP, and then just wipe it clean if you want to return it. The store shouldn't be able to tell if you used it or not, if you erase/reset the device before bringing it back.

I find that sometimes a new display just takes a bit of time for the eyes to adjust to. Hopefully the migraine was just a coincidence, as this is indeed a very nice device!

 

[MBPUser21]

Do keep us posted.

Also, you can probably set up the MBP, and then just wipe it clean if you want to return it. The store shouldn't be able to tell if you used it or not, if you erase/reset the device before bringing it back.

I find that sometimes a new display just takes a bit of time for the eyes to adjust to. Hopefully the migraine was just a coincidence, as this is indeed a very nice device!

Thank you, your post above was really interesting as well!

I bought it from a reseller so tried to take the cover, etc off carefully to put back on in case of return. Will look at it again tomorrow and see how it goes, I did immediately notice like a motion sickness/dizziness feel when I first looked at it, if that’s not there tomorrow I’ll try setting it up then worst case scenario reset it again. I guess using an external monitor would solve the issue if they declined the return, although would be a nuisance having to always use it at my desk?

I have read about a few people getting eye strain with the 14” & 16” on Reddit & Twitter so am feeling the 13” may be a safer choice all round, especially as I’ve used a family members 2019 MBA with similar higher hz with no problems. As you said it’s hopefully just a case of getting used to it because I’ve been waiting for years for a model like this. I just hope they improve the PWM in future models for the few users that are effected by it, I’ve seen some people have similar issues with the iPad Pro screen as well, it’s a shame as they’re fab devices!

 

[Sanpete]

Laboratory studies (from the likes of Bullough et al), however, are showing that there are a set of people who can detect PWM up to 10,000 Hz and some were even able to detect PWM up to 25,000 Hz.

Would love to see those studies, as that sounds incredible!

 

[SpotOnT]

I have read about a few people getting eye strain with the 14” & 16” on Reddit & Twitter so am feeling the 13” may be a safer choice all round, especially as I’ve used a family members 2019 MBA with similar higher hz with no problems. As you said it’s hopefully just a case of getting used to it because I’ve been waiting for years for a model like this. I just hope they improve the PWM in future models for the few users that are effected by it, I’ve seen some people have similar issues with the iPad Pro screen as well, it’s a shame as they’re fab devices!

I totally understand your feeling. I get the exact same thing: dizzy, motion sick, spotted vision, with the OLED iPhone screens. I was so excited when the new iPad Mini didn't go OLED, but then it turned out I couldn't handle the Jelly Scroll either (that was actually a lot worse for me) and had to return that. Luckily I don't have any problems with migraines though and so far I have had no problems with the 16" 2021 MBP. There are a lot of things about a screen, in addition to PWM, that can trigger people though, everyone is a bit different.

I do share your concern about the future. Especially if Apple goes OLED in their laptops, does that mean they will get worse? I guess large LG OLED TVs are fine for me, so maybe it will work out? Time will tell I guess.

Would love to see those studies, as that sounds incredible!

I am not sure what databases you have access to, but this is one of the papers I remember reading (this research group has a few other works as well, and there are more included in their references):

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

I don't mean to oversell these studies, since most of the research done so far (including what the IEEE standard is designed for) was all for the introduction of the LED lightbulb rather than for computer screens specifically....and you know, for the most part people aren't staring into the lightbulbs in their home the way they stare directly into their computer screen, so there has to be some differences there.

I do, however, think they are useful in that they suggest that for some people, sensitivity in the low tens of thousand hertz range is not unreasonable. Would love to see some direct studies on PWM in OLED monitors some day.

 

[Sanpete]

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

Thanks, but I can't view it. I wonder by what method they could ascertain that someone could perceive such high frequencies that defy all current understanding of how the biology of the eye works.

 

[AJTC]

So I've decided to return my 14" MacBook Pro. I said in the other thread I'd try reduce the refresh rate to 60hz which does make a difference with the level of bloodshot eyes I was experiencing but not enough to stop the dry, gritty eyes. My eyes feel wrecked after these last 2 weeks.

Back on my 13" 2020 Intel MacBook Pro and I already feel the relief.

I've just ordered a MacBook Pro M1 13". At least the PWM rate on that is up in the 100khz range similar to my Intel one so I'm hoping that's the solution until Apple sort out their cheap display implementations.

 

[MBPUser21]

So I've decided to return my 14" MacBook Pro. I said in the other thread I'd try reduce the refresh rate to 60hz which does make a difference with the level of bloodshot eyes I was experiencing but not enough to stop the dry, gritty eyes. My eyes feel wrecked after these last 2 weeks.

Back on my 13" 2020 Intel MacBook Pro and I already feel the relief.

I've just ordered a MacBook Pro M1 13". At least the PWM rate on that is up in the 100khz range similar to my Intel one so I'm hoping that's the solution until Apple sort out their cheap display implementations.

Thanks for letting me know, I'm returning mine as well, just hoping they'll accept it! I was planning on getting the MBP M1 13" for the same reasons, would love to know how you get on with it when it arrives

 

[AJTC]

Thanks for letting me know, I'm returning mine as well, just hoping they'll accept it! I was planning on getting the MBP M1 13" for the same reasons, would love to know how you get on with it when it arrives

Will do. I got it on the Apple refurbished store so I got the top spec (16GB/2TB) for a nice price and still €800 cheaper than what I paid for the 14" so I feel happy about that at least. Using my 2020 Intel since I boxed up the 14" and the weight just feels much nicer to carry and on my lap - if only it wasn't burning me so I can't wait for the M1.

 

[MBPUser21]

Will do. I got it on the Apple refurbished store so I got the top spec (16GB/2TB) for a nice price and still €800 cheaper than what I paid for the 14" so I feel happy about that at least. Using my 2020 Intel since I boxed up the 14" and the weight just feels much nicer to carry and on my lap - if only it wasn't burning me so I can't wait for the M1.

I looked on the refurbished store the other day and there weren't any 16GB 13" available but looks like there is now, thanks! Waiting for the return to process for the 14" first, then will go for that if it's still in stock. Haha I feel the same with my 2014 model, hate how hot it gets, going to be a huge update from my current dual-core i5.

 

[MBPUser21]

Will do. I got it on the Apple refurbished store so I got the top spec (16GB/2TB) for a nice price and still €800 cheaper than what I paid for the 14" so I feel happy about that at least. Using my 2020 Intel since I boxed up the 14" and the weight just feels much nicer to carry and on my lap - if only it wasn't burning me so I can't wait for the M1.

Hey, how are you finding the 13" so far?

 

[AJTC]

Hey, how are you finding the 13" so far?

I’ve absolutely no issues with it. My eyes are fine and I’ve had no migraines from using it. I definitely made the right decision.

Did you get yours yet? Is it all ok?

 

[majkom]

guys, those havineg problems with m1 pros, did you find 2019 pros (16 inch) display ok - there is permanent pwm, but much hugher freq.. ?

 

[Srao1982]

guys, those havineg problems with m1 pros, did you find 2019 pros (16 inch) display ok - there is permanent pwm, but much hugher freq.. ?

Yup - I have the 2019 16in and have no problem with it. I tried two different 16” M1 Pros and had issues with the screen on both. Though I’m not sure it is PWM in my case; I have the 13 Pro which has a much lower PWM frequency than the new MB Pros and have no problem with it.

 

[Tikatika]

I had to return my 14” Pro. I was having horrific focusing problems and headaches. Have used PCs and Macs for years and have never experienced anything like it. i had sold my M1 Air prior to getting the new Pro, and am on the fence now as to what to get. Really sad about this because I loved that new computer.

 

[majkom]

hm, i am afraid that it will be even worse as apple is pushing those mini led displays everywhere.. so we pwm sensitive have to decide which older model to buy, I am still undecided between 16inch 2019 (last 16 incher with bearable pwm) or m1 13inch pro - probably last m1 macbook with bearable pwm…

 

[MBPUser21]

I’ve absolutely no issues with it. My eyes are fine and I’ve had no migraines from using it. I definitely made the right decision.

Did you get yours yet? Is it all ok?

That's great, thanks for letting me know! Haven't got it yet, the refund just went through for the 14". Debating between the M1 Air & Pro tbh, how are you finding the Touch Bar?