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majormike

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 15, 2012
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Do you think that there will be the possibility of a bootable Windows 10 on M1 Macbooks?

I'm really enticed to get the new Macbook but prefer to run Windows on it with all it's apps.
 

majormike

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 15, 2012
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Nope.

At least not for the next 3 years.
Damn, so I suppose this machine is only viable for Apple apps and a few optimized ones.

There are so many users running Windows on their Macbooks.

Couldn't they have worked together with Microsoft to make that happen at launch?
 
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Maconplasma

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Sep 15, 2020
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Damn, so I suppose this machine is only viable for Apple apps and a few optimized ones.
Uh yeah, since it's a Mac and it's an Apple computer. Ya think?
There are so many users running Windows on their Macbooks.
There are a lot less people than you think doing this.
Couldn't they have worked together with Microsoft to make that happen at launch?
Apple's computers are for MacOS. Period. Apple does not make Macs just to run Windows. There's really no benefit for Apple anymore to offer this feature. You have plenty of options in the Windows world. Come on!
 
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jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
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Does Microsoft even want to have MacBooks run Windows? So far they haven't said a word about even running Windows in a VM and that already works and could be pretty viable with a little work on Microsoft's part. If they don't support running Windows in a VM then I'm guessing you won't ever see Bootcamp like support.
 

Maconplasma

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Many professionals run Windows on their Macs because they tend to swap between both operating systems.

I also wouldn't have to wait until Devs have actually ported plugins to M1 which will probably take a few months.
Aside from coders, many professionals such as whom? Any proof of this?
 

tdar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2003
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Johns Creek Ga.
Does Microsoft even want to have MacBooks run Windows? So far they haven't said a word about even running Windows in a VM and that already works and could be pretty viable with a little work on Microsoft's part. If they don't support running Windows in a VM then I'm guessing you won't ever see Bootcamp like support.
One of the most popular computers on the Microsoft campus is a MacBook Pro.
 

tdar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2003
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Johns Creek Ga.
I believe that Microsoft can make it boot nativity if they want. But unless you want to run in reduced security mode they will need a Apple certificate. There is a rumor that Apple and Microsoft has talked about that.
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
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One of the most popular computers on the Microsoft campus is a MacBook Pro.
I'm not sure that makes a lot of difference for Microsoft's business decisions. Again, if Microsoft wanted to run Windows on the M1, why no statements? It seems that Microsoft might be happy to have no Windows competition from Apple for their own Surface notebooks and tablets.
 

James_C

macrumors 68030
Sep 13, 2002
2,847
1,897
Bristol, UK
Do you think that there will be the possibility of a bootable Windows 10 on M1 Macbooks?

I'm really enticed to get the new Macbook but prefer to run Windows on it with all it's apps.
The Intel version of windows with Bootcamp will never run on M1. With Parallels you hopefully will be able to Run the Arm version of windows. There is a preview version of Parallels and Windows on Arm, however Microsoft has not yet indicated that it will license the Arm version of Windows for consumers to install on their Macs. However if you want to run Intel versions of Windows apps on the Arm version, then they emulated. The performance is pretty good for emulation, but there are not many 3rd party apps written for Windows Arm.
 
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Leon1das

macrumors 6502
Dec 26, 2020
285
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Windows 10 Arm can run inside Parallels for M1 (technical preview).

You have to be registered MS Insider to get this Win build.

Out of the box it emulates x86 apps, and once system is updated (via Windows Update) to latest version - it gets x64 emulation too.

Speed-wise - its a rocket...
Just for curiosity I installed some Win x86 games on it incl TES Oblivion and it runs in native resolution 2560x1600 at 70-80 fps - so some 50-60% better than on my Surface Pro 7 i7 (Win 10 Pro x64) despite the fact that it goes through emulation on M1 (Windows x86 code translated to Arm)...

Needles to say that Win 10 Arm runs faster on M1 than on Surface Pro X/X2 which are powered by Qualcom.

Only negative to this method is missing full licensing option (its evluation copy) and big price for Parallels (70 usd), but Technical Preview version for M1 is free to use until March 2021.... Hurry up and try :)
 

majormike

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 15, 2012
113
42
Windows 10 Arm can run inside Parallels for M1 (technical preview).

You have to be registered MS Insider to get this Win build.

Out of the box it emulates x86 apps, and once system is updated (via Windows Update) to latest version - it gets x64 emulation too.

Speed-wise - its a rocket...
Just for curiosity I installed some Win x86 games on it incl TES Oblivion and it runs in native resolution 2560x1600 at 70-80 fps - so some 50-60% better than on my Surface Pro 7 i7 (Win 10 Pro x64) despite the fact that it goes through emulation on M1 (Windows x86 code translated to Arm)...

Needles to say that Win 10 Arm runs faster on M1 than on Surface Pro X/X2 which are powered by Qualcom.

Only negative to this method is missing full licensing option (its evluation copy) and big price for Parallels (70 usd), but Technical Preview version for M1 is free to use until March 2021.... Hurry up and try :)
It's an amazing first step but won't replace a regularly bootable Windows 10.

Another point is how Apple hasn't provided other companies with early access to the platform in order to release their Software at launch such as Avid, which is an audio production platform predominantly used by Apple users in Post-Audio for music, tv and movies.
 

James_C

macrumors 68030
Sep 13, 2002
2,847
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Bristol, UK
Another point is how Apple hasn't provided other companies with early access to the platform in order to release their Software at launch such as Avid, which is an audio production platform predominantly used by Apple users in Post-Audio for music, tv and movies.

Apple made available a developers kit ( Mac mini ) when Apple Silicon was announced. This is why Microsoft and others had an Apple Silicon native version ready when the M1 Macs were launched.
 

Leon1das

macrumors 6502
Dec 26, 2020
285
214
It's an amazing first step but won't replace a regularly bootable Windows 10.

Another point is how Apple hasn't provided other companies with early access to the platform in order to release their Software at launch such as Avid, which is an audio production platform predominantly used by Apple users in Post-Audio for music, tv and movies.
For the most of the regular users - Win 10 Arm is already a complete experience of Windows 10, and reality is that M1 Mac is the fastest Win 10 Arm device.

The way it runs parallely is astonishing, including demanding games, Office 365 or whatever else.
Once its switched to full screen its a complete Windows environment.

So yes, I fully disagree with your comment.
 
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dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
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Anchorage, AK
Damn, so I suppose this machine is only viable for Apple apps and a few optimized ones.

There are so many users running Windows on their Macbooks.

Couldn't they have worked together with Microsoft to make that happen at launch?

Not as simple as you make it out to be. Microsoft's own licensing terms for Windows on ARM restrict it to OEMs who make machines designed to run Windows. Microsoft would have to agree to rewrite those terms to accommodate Apple, and that may require renegotiation of contracts with existing OEMs (Samsung and Lenovo). Apple is on the record stating that they are waiting on Microsoft, as Big Sur and the M1 processor can run WoA without issue. You will NEVER see an Intel version of Windows (or any other OS) as a bootable option on an M1 Mac. That would be like putting diesel fuel in a gas engine...
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
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Another point is how Apple hasn't provided other companies with early access to the platform in order to release their Software at launch such as Avid, which is an audio production platform predominantly used by Apple users in Post-Audio for music, tv and movies.
Citation needed: Adobe, Microsoft, Parallels all had native products shown at WWDC so Apple clearly provided them with early access, and native versions of those products started appearing a few weeks after the launch. Lots of other developers took advantage of the developers system and had native versions out very early. Parallels were at a disadvantage because the A12 in the developer's system specifically couldn't do virtualisation, but even they had a preview out after a month.

More likely, Avid can probably afford to take it slowly and wait for the higher-end Apple Silicon Macs, because whereas MS and even Adobe have a significant number of "consumer/prosumer" customers, I suspect that the typical Avid user isn't so likely to rush out and buy an entry-level Mac.

It's an amazing first step but won't replace a regularly bootable Windows 10.

Except (once Parallels have got the bugs out and done a deal with MS) it will meet the needs of many users who just need Windows to run a few minor tools that they don't have Mac equivalents for. Virtualisation is more than good enough for anything from running the Windows version of Excel, MS Project, MS Publisher etc. to modest 3D gaming, and has many advantages (like no rebooting) for anybody using both Windows and MacOS side-by-side.

The people left out are the ones who choose Macs for running demanding Windows games, creative and scientific software that are only viable under BootCamp. Frankly, I'd anticipate that most of those people won't be happy with Windows on ARM, even under BootCamp.

Remember, this is all about numbers not simply whether BootCamp-dependent users exist or "doesn't work for me". Apple is always happy to throw customers under a bus for the greater good.

Some of those users will only be served with x86 Windows - and that ship has sailed, that need can't be served without throwing away the advantages of Apple Silicon. Some of those users will give virtualisation another try and be satisfied. Some will switch to PC-in-the-cloud services (...and some who currently aren't allowed to do that "because security" are, in the near future, gonna find that they are required to do that "because security" just as soon as their employer outsources their security/privacy compliance to MS or Amazon). The demise of Internet Explorer has decimated the need for testing web apps on Windows... Since 2006, when BootCamp was a killer app, the range of software for MacOS has improved, the use of platform-independent web technologies has mushroomed and - if all else fails - you can now buy a fairly powerful NUC, Surface Pro or other ultra-portable PC capable of (relative) performance that would once have required finding space for a full-sized desktop or tower. The need for BootCamp - and Windows in general - is a shrinking pool.

Not as simple as you make it out to be. Microsoft's own licensing terms for Windows on ARM restrict it to OEMs who make machines designed to run Windows.

All they need to do is cut Apple (or, more likely, Parallels/VMWare) an OEM license, so you'll be able to buy a version of Parallels/VMWare with a bundled download of WoA. Licensing OEMs is one of MS's core businesses so that's only a stumbling block if MS decide they want to throw a spanner in the works.

Whether there are any technical hurdles is still unknown: it's no big surprise that a tech preview of Parallels running a tech preview of WoA is flakey and incomplete right now, but there have been some suggestions that some of the bundled apps in the current version of WoA are still in ARM32 code which won't run on the M1, which would need a fix from MS. However, that's probably on MS's to-do list anyway, since future non-Apple ARM chips will want to ditch 32 bit ASAP as well (or risk turning into the new Pentium 4).

Apple is on the record stating that they are waiting on Microsoft, as Big Sur and the M1 processor can run WoA without issue.

They're also on the record stating that any support for alternative OSs on Apple Silicon will be via virtualisation and not direct booting.

As far as we know, WoA won't direct boot on M1 unless Apple releases a lot more information on how to write bootloaders and drivers for M1 graphics and other functionality that did use generic/third party PC hardware but is now strictly proprietary. (Or, more realistically, Apple would have to write Windows drivers themselves). That's a pain for Apple because, at the moment, they don't even have to maintain a stable hardware interface, as every new Mac release can coincide with a point release of MacOS with updated drivers. I don't see MS reverse-engineering the M1 to write unstable drivers that would break with every new Mac (if not every firmware update). There is someone now proposing to do that for Linux - best wishes to them, but I'm not holding my breath.

Running under Parallels, though, doesn't need M1-specific drivers - the hypervisor either emulates something the OS already supports - or installs a paravirtualised driver written by Parallels - that just passes calls to the hypervisor - and translates it to MacOS framework calls. The fact that the preview is turning in decent performance shows that job is well in hand.

So, WoA BootCamp is most likely not going to happen (although anything is possible) while WoA virtualisation is already way past the proof-of-concept stage and will probably happen unless MS decide to be obstructive.

What is slightly ironic is that the launch of the M1 Macs has done an awful lot to boost the credibility of the idea that there might be life without Intel and that Windows for ARM could be a contender. If it hasn't done already, the M1 MBA is going to be outselling the existing ARM-based PCs, and even licensing a virtualised version of WoA would give MS a huge boost in WoA adoption so, really, why wouldn't they?

OTOH, the pressure is now on the PC/Windows/ARM SoC industry to stop faffing around with the sort of so-so processor that the Surface X uses and produce a proper ARM (or even RISC-V) chip properly optimised for running Windows/DirectX etc. the way the M1 is tuned for MacOS/Metal. That would probably be easier without direct competition from Apple Silicon running Windows on bare metal - although they ought to be able to beat it running virtualised, so that could be the best compromise.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
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Anchorage, AK
It's an amazing first step but won't replace a regularly bootable Windows 10.

Another point is how Apple hasn't provided other companies with early access to the platform in order to release their Software at launch such as Avid, which is an audio production platform predominantly used by Apple users in Post-Audio for music, tv and movies.

Adobe and Microsoft had both been working on M1-native apps prior to WWDC, which is why they were demonstrating native versions of those apps during the keynote. While those are the two developers Apple highlighted, it is naive to assume that nobody else had similar early access to Apple Silicon-based systems. Clearly Blizzard also had to have such access in order to release World of Warcraft day and date of the M1 hitting retail channels.
 
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Maconplasma

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Another point is how Apple hasn't provided other companies with early access to the platform in order to release their Software at launch such as Avid, which is an audio production platform predominantly used by Apple users in Post-Audio for music, tv and movies.
And where it written about this? That wouldn't make any sense. Major developers are generally in the know many months before tech forums would even know about the new tech. Whether you believe it or not Avid had full access to the M1 Macs. Some developers (especially ones that do music recording software) are just lazy and wait until they are forced to update plugins.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,142
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Anchorage, AK
And where it written about this? That wouldn't make any sense. Major developers are generally in the know many months before tech forums would even know about the new tech. Whether you believe it or not Avid had full access to the M1 Macs. Some developers (especially ones that do music recording software) are just lazy and wait until they are forced to update plugins.

The developers who had neither advance notice nor access to the Developer Transition Kits (which were fairly limited in capabilities to be honest) were mainly smaller developers who had limited resources and had to wait for M1 systems to actually hit the market before they could start development. The big devs had more access than you could imagine, not only to production-ready hardware (versus the DTK that rolled out at WWDC) but to engineers within Apple.
 

Maconplasma

Cancelled
Sep 15, 2020
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The developers who had neither advance notice nor access to the Developer Transition Kits (which were fairly limited in capabilities to be honest) were mainly smaller developers who had limited resources and had to wait for M1 systems to actually hit the market before they could start development. The big devs had more access than you could imagine, not only to production-ready hardware (versus the DTK that rolled out at WWDC) but to engineers within Apple.
Did you read my previous post? I was quoting the post stating that a BIG developer wasn't in the know about the M1, which is completely ridiculous. I think some people want to blame Apple just because it's easier to do so than to blame the lazy developers for not getting up off their butts, updating their softwares and caring about their paying customers.
 
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