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skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,243
1,398
Brazil
While I think MacBooks are great and contains a very streamlined computer in a terrific small and efficient package, I do not have the same kind of feeling for desktop Macs.

A Mac Mini is good, but Apple squeezed a lot in a small package which came out overpriced. The iMac is great but also not upgraded recently, and not upgradeable. The Mac Pro has become some sort of joke as it is far outdated now. And the iMac Pro is too expensive and out of my reach. And I do not really need a unified form factor for my desk. I am building an alternative, running Windows instead of macOS, of course.

But it is hard to build a PC from zero. An iMac at least is a balaced piece of hardware, and a PC is not necessarily, depeding on how we build it. I am not trying to replicate an iMac, but rather understand why Apple took some decisions on its design.

I thought of a Core i7-8700 or a Ryzen 2700, as I do multitask. A lower performance computer might do it, such as a Core i5-8400, for instance. A Core i9-9900K might be great, but I am afraid it may heat so much. Is there any reason the desktop Macs use Core processors instead of Ryzen apart from a deal with Intel? Aren’t Ryzen processors more suitable for multitasking, which should be the main purpose of the iMac? Clock speed or heat perhaps would be reasons for adopting Intel?

As for motherboards, should I go for high end or not? I have no idea on what Apple uses and why, nor if a good motherboard would make any difference.

I noticed that Intel current processors support up to 2666 MHz memory. However, I also notice that iMacs use 2400 MHz RAM (and the Mac Mini uses 2666 MHz). Would there be a reason for Apple not using faster memory in the iMacs? Does Apple think it does not make much of a difference, perhaps?

In terms of video cards, Apple uses AMD for the iMac. From what I heard and read, Nvidia’s offerings are faster, heat less and are more energy-efficient. Those could make a better fit for the iMac, especially coupled with a retina screen. Am I losing something? Should there be any reason to opt for AMD?

Storage is something that really puzzles me in Mac computers. First, I wonder how Fusion drives are built and configured, and whether it would be possible to replicate such a thing in the PC world. Perhaps some RAID configuration could do it?

Second, I notice that Apple uses fast and expensive PCI-E NVMe SSDs accross its line-up. It sort of puzzles me because those SSDs are far more expensive than SATA III ones (and it seems kind of inconsistent that at the same time Apple chooses only slightly cheaper 2400 MHz RAM). I came accross some tests in YouTube and, despite the massive difference in benchmarks, NVMe SSDs seem to be only marginally faster than SATA III SSDs in booting and loading software. So why does Apple include such large-size expensive SSDs in its Macs, which push prices up? Are they so much faster that it makes a huge difference for users? Or is Apple only thinking about those power users who deal with large size files every day such as video editors (and therefore need amazingly fast transfer speeds)?

I was thinking of a SATA III SSD coupled with a large HDD for storage, but Apple’s choices made me have a second thought.

Thanks for any help you can give.
 

uller6

macrumors 65816
May 14, 2010
1,072
1,777
A computer build should reflect what you want to do with that computer. Apple makes certain design decisions that help them streamline their supply chain and manufacturing, but that does limit component choices to "Apple-approved" selections. Despite what you think about the 2013 cylinder Mac Pro I'm incredibly happy with mine and don't plan on upgrading for at least 5 more years. It's the best computer I've ever had. A few thoughts on your questions:

1. Keep in mind that CPU speeds have stagnated for the last ~5 years, so recent upgrades and improvements have diminishing returns. AMD CPUs are cheaper than Intel, but Intel CPUs are generally faster. Ryzen CPUs are pretty sweet, and have higher core counts than Intel CPUs, but that doesn't translate directly into better multitasking. Most people are fine using a dual core CPU, and extra cores can only be used by software written to be multithreaded. The one advantage of Intel over AMD CPUs is the higher single thread turbo boost speed - this will make the computer "feel" faster on single threaded tasks, but you'll pay more for this. I prefer AMD, but the last computer I built used Intel because the AMD CPUs at the time were not great (Bulldozer).

2. In the past Gigabyte boards have been the best to use with Hackintoshes since the designs were so similar to Apple logic boards. I haven't looked into this in a couple of years though so things may have changed. Gigabyte is on the higher end of motherboards. If you don't plan on overclocking and only want to run Windows then a basic motherboard (i.e. Intel) should be fine.

3. The iMacs were designed in 2016 and released in 2017. They use 2400 MHz RAM because that was the fastest RAM available at the time of system design. The current mini is a year newer so can use the fastest available RAM. There is minimal speed difference between 2400 MHz and 2666 MHz RAM.

4. Personally I've been burned too many times by crummy Nvidia video cards - I've had 3 of them die over the years, including in Macs when they used Nvidia. I've never had an AMD card die on me, and I switched exclusively to using AMD a few years ago. Unless you're trying to squeeze that extra 5 FPS out of your game there really isn't that much of a difference - both companies make many cards at almost every price point, so pick a price you want to pay for a video card and go for it. Apple has a sweetheart deal with AMD that likely gives them a lower bulk price.

5. Fusion drives can be replicated in Windows: Intel rapid storage technology. It combines a smaller SSD with a larger HDD for both speed and capacity. Also look into Intel optane memory.

6. Apple is seriously ahead of almost everyone else in SSD design and performance. NVMe eliminates a lot of overhead and legacy related to SATA III SSDs, as SATA was originally designed with spinning HDDs in mind. For "system responsiveness," both types of SSDs feel about the same, but when you're transferring huge files, working with 4k video, or working on real-time audio the NVMe drives are totally worth it. To answer your specific question: Apple is undoubtably thinking about power users when they made this decision to use NVMe SSDs. If you don't need the NVMe then save your money and go with a SATA III ssd.

Hope this helps!
 
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skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,243
1,398
Brazil
A computer build should reflect what you want to do with that computer. Apple makes certain design decisions that help them streamline their supply chain and manufacturing, but that does limit component choices to "Apple-approved" selections. Despite what you think about the 2013 cylinder Mac Pro I'm incredibly happy with mine and don't plan on upgrading for at least 5 more years. It's the best computer I've ever had. A few thoughts on your questions:

Thank you. I appreciate your time in answering all of this.

As for the Mac Pro, I am pretty sure it is still a great computer. But I do not think it makes sense buying a computer released in 2013, especially for the same price it was asked at its release date. It ended up becoming a joke not only because Apple failed to release any upgrade in the following years, but also because it chose to adopt a great design but which prevented it from updating the computer with new GPUs. However, if you have one, you probably do not need to upgrade for the time being.

In any case, a Mac Pro is out of my league, as it costs north of US$ 6,000 here in Brazil (the lower-end version; a customized version can be more than US$ 15,000). I am not exactly planning to spend so much in a computer.

1. Keep in mind that CPU speeds have stagnated for the last ~5 years, so recent upgrades and improvements have diminishing returns. AMD CPUs are cheaper than Intel, but Intel CPUs are generally faster. Ryzen CPUs are pretty sweet, and have higher core counts than Intel CPUs, but that doesn't translate directly into better multitasking. Most people are fine using a dual core CPU, and extra cores can only be used by software written to be multithreaded. The one advantage of Intel over AMD CPUs is the higher single thread turbo boost speed - this will make the computer "feel" faster on single threaded tasks, but you'll pay more for this. I prefer AMD, but the last computer I built used Intel because the AMD CPUs at the time were not great (Bulldozer).

As from what I have seen, CPUs have evolved, but not as in the past. I mean, single-threaded performance seems to have improved only slightly in the last few years (https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html). What really made some difference, it appears, is the increase of clock speeds and the number of cores.

From the 7th to the 8th generation, Intel managed to improve the performance by adding more cores. From the 8th to the 9th generation, Intel increased the clock speed slightly while adding more cores in the higher-end configurations. This perhaps has something to do with the fact that Intel is using a 14nm process for four years now.

As for AMD, it seems that it managed to improve the single-threaded speeds between the 1st and 2nd generations of Ryzen processors, by increasing clock speed basically. The 3rd generation Ryzen will use a 7nm process, and AMD is already telling a whole new story about it.

I am still not sure what to get, perhaps a Core i7-8700 makes sense. I could buy a Core i7-9700K or i9-9900K, but then I would have to buy better coolers and a more expensive motherboard. This all adds to the price to the point that it becomes hard to justify the increase in performance.

There is also the Ryzen 7 2700, which is an option, especially if I can find a decent motherboard. I guess the i7-8700 is better, but the Ryzen 2700 could be justified if it costs significantly less.

2. In the past Gigabyte boards have been the best to use with Hackintoshes since the designs were so similar to Apple logic boards. I haven't looked into this in a couple of years though so things may have changed. Gigabyte is on the higher end of motherboards. If you don't plan on overclocking and only want to run Windows then a basic motherboard (i.e. Intel) should be fine.

Thanks. I am not really looking into overclocking. I am not looking into building a hackintosh either, so a standard motherboard will suffice. I might run macOS in a virtual machine, but not as my main OS in this computer.

3. The iMacs were designed in 2016 and released in 2017. They use 2400 MHz RAM because that was the fastest RAM available at the time of system design. The current mini is a year newer so can use the fastest available RAM. There is minimal speed difference between 2400 MHz and 2666 MHz RAM.

You are right, it seems that 2400 MHz memory was the maximum supported by the iMac processors. The speed difference should be mimimal.

4. Personally I've been burned too many times by crummy Nvidia video cards - I've had 3 of them die over the years, including in Macs when they used Nvidia. I've never had an AMD card die on me, and I switched exclusively to using AMD a few years ago. Unless you're trying to squeeze that extra 5 FPS out of your game there really isn't that much of a difference - both companies make many cards at almost every price point, so pick a price you want to pay for a video card and go for it. Apple has a sweetheart deal with AMD that likely gives them a lower bulk price.

Thanks, that is what I thought. Still, Nvidia cards seem to offer higher performance (for a higher price).

5. Fusion drives can be replicated in Windows: Intel rapid storage technology. It combines a smaller SSD with a larger HDD for both speed and capacity. Also look into Intel optane memory.

I really never understood exactly how Intel Rapid Storage Technology works. Intel's explanation on its website seems OK. However I also heard that the technology does not work with larger SSDs, and that it does not deliver much improved performance over traditional HDDs. And I never used Intel Optane, it is supposed to be quite fast.

6. Apple is seriously ahead of almost everyone else in SSD design and performance. NVMe eliminates a lot of overhead and legacy related to SATA III SSDs, as SATA was originally designed with spinning HDDs in mind. For "system responsiveness," both types of SSDs feel about the same, but when you're transferring huge files, working with 4k video, or working on real-time audio the NVMe drives are totally worth it. To answer your specific question: Apple is undoubtably thinking about power users when they made this decision to use NVMe SSDs. If you don't need the NVMe then save your money and go with a SATA III ssd.

I do not really need the additional speed, if that will not translate into responsiveness. I was thinking of a 240 GB NVMe SSD (for the OS and applications) coupled with a 480 GB SATA III SSD (for additional files) and a 2-3 TB HDD (for the bulk of the storage and also backup). Does this make any sense or should I just go with a SATA III SSD and the HDD?

Hope this helps!

It helps a lot, thanks!
 

uller6

macrumors 65816
May 14, 2010
1,072
1,777
In any case, a Mac Pro is out of my league, as it costs north of US$ 6,000 here in Brazil (the lower-end version; a customized version can be more than US$ 15,000). I am not exactly planning to spend so much in a computer.
WOW - at those prices I certainly can't blame you for staying away!

I do not really need the additional speed, if that will not translate into responsiveness. I was thinking of a 240 GB NVMe SSD (for the OS and applications) coupled with a 480 GB SATA III SSD (for additional files) and a 2-3 TB HDD (for the bulk of the storage and also backup). Does this make any sense or should I just go with a SATA III SSD and the HDD?

Sounds like a SATA III SSD for the OS and a large HDD would be fine for your needs. One thing to keep in mind is that the newest crop of SSDs come in both M2 and 2.5" versions with the M2 format being smaller and cheaper. Most new M2 drives are NVMe, but some M2 drives are still SATA (just not in a 2.5" format).
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,243
1,398
Brazil
WOW - at those prices I certainly can't blame you for staying away!

Yes, it is not easy buying computes and electronics here in Brazil. And Apple prices are prohibitive for nearly everyone, especially the higher end products.

Sounds like a SATA III SSD for the OS and a large HDD would be fine for your needs. One thing to keep in mind is that the newest crop of SSDs come in both M2 and 2.5" versions with the M2 format being smaller and cheaper. Most new M2 drives are NVMe, but some M2 drives are still SATA (just not in a 2.5" format).

Thanks.

M.2 SSDs (even SATA III ones) are still quite expensive here. I thought of buying a NVMe one as it at least has the speed advantage.
 

velocityg4

macrumors 604
Dec 19, 2004
7,330
4,724
Georgia
What are your uses for the computer? I ask as most people would never notice the difference between a Ryzen 2600x or Intel i9-9900K. If you can't max out a CPU in either single or multi-thread tasks. It doesn't matter how much faster a better CPU is. You won't see it. Outside a benchmark. So, consider your uses before overspending.

I'd definitely go with a large SATA SSD and HDD. There isn't much advantage with NVMe in real world use. It's not like the difference between a HDD and SSD. Sort of like going from a Corvette to a Ferrari isn't as impressive as a horse to a Corvette.

There isn't much reason to choose AMD over nVidia in Windows. Given that there are comparable models in level. Except the really high end cards. I'd just go with whichever gives you the best price to performance ratio. I couldn't say why Apple sticks with AMD. My guess is they don't want to be stuck with CUDA, they work great with Metal and Metal 2 and AMD probably bends over backwards to accommodate Apple. nVidia likes everything to be proprietary while AMD embraces open source. Now if you have some non-gaming work task for the GPU. It would really depend on the software. AMD has some notable price/performance advantages with FP64. While other GPU tasks vary between AMD and nVidia.

Intel Rapid Storage is limited to 120GB SSD I believe. Anyways with the plunge in SSD price. Rapid storage makes little sense. It was a good idea 5 years ago. I think it's time has passed. Optane is just grossly overpriced for what you get.
 

Hater

macrumors 6502a
Sep 20, 2017
898
885
Edinburgh, Scotland
Apple uses custom boards that are tightly integrated with the rest of the system and especially with the OS. They have so many more factors to think about (Device R&D, driver testing, supply chain, reliability stress testing, volume availability, onboard firmware, serviceability, supplier contracts) that it's really comparing Apple and Oranges when it comes to the hardware decisions they make.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,243
1,398
Brazil
I ended up buying a Core i7-9700K with a water cooler, 32 GB of DDR4 RAM, a 480 GB SSD, a 3 TB HDD for storage, and an NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 video card. Hope this was a good buy.
 
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idonthatethemac

macrumors member
Nov 19, 2018
34
41
I ended up buying a Core i7-9700K with a water cooler, 32 GB of DDR4 RAM, a 480 GB SSD, a 3 TB HDD for storage, and an NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 video card. Hope this was a good buy.
Just out of curiosity, How much did you spend on that config?
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,243
1,398
Brazil
Just out of curiosity, How much did you spend on that config?

I spent about USD 2,400 on the configuration. The final configuration is as follows:

Core i7-9700K 3.6 GHz
120mm watercooler (local brand)
Gigabyte Z390 Gaming motherboard
Galax RTX 2070 OC White 8 GB
32 GB DDR4 3000 MHz RAM (Corsair Vengeance)
480 GB SSD Kingston A400 SATA III
4 TB HD Seagate Barracuda 5400 RPM
Gigabyte G750H PSU Gold 80 Plus
Gamemax Infinit M908 black case

I could update it with a Core i9-9900K and an RTX 2080 or RTX 2080 Ti, but I thought it might be overkill and I also was not sure about the temperatures this beast would get (especially in a hot country).

It may be more expensive than in the U.S., but it was kind of cheap for Brazilian standards. It does not include a monitor, a keyboard, and a mouse, which I already had.

There is no similar iMac I could buy, and it would still be far more expensive. A 27-inch iMac with a 7th gen Core i5 3.8 GHz (quad-core), 16 GB RAM 2400 MHz, 512 GB SSD, and an AMD Radeon Pro 580, would cost some USD 5,600, more than double the price (and still far less powerful).

I hope it was a good buy.
 

idonthatethemac

macrumors member
Nov 19, 2018
34
41
I spent about USD 2,400 on the configuration. The final configuration is as follows:

Core i7-9700K 3.6 GHz
120mm watercooler (local brand)
Gigabyte Z390 Gaming motherboard
Galax RTX 2070 OC White 8 GB
32 GB DDR4 3000 MHz RAM (Corsair Vengeance)
480 GB SSD Kingston A400 SATA III
4 TB HD Seagate Barracuda 5400 RPM
Gigabyte G750H PSU Gold 80 Plus
Gamemax Infinit M908 black case

I could update it with a Core i9-9900K and an RTX 2080 or RTX 2080 Ti, but I thought it might be overkill and I also was not sure about the temperatures this beast would get (especially in a hot country).

It may be more expensive than in the U.S., but it was kind of cheap for Brazilian standards. It does not include a monitor, a keyboard, and a mouse, which I already had.

There is no similar iMac I could buy, and it would still be far more expensive. A 27-inch iMac with a 7th gen Core i5 3.8 GHz (quad-core), 16 GB RAM 2400 MHz, 512 GB SSD, and an AMD Radeon Pro 580, would cost some USD 5,600, more than double the price (and still far less powerful).

I hope it was a good buy.


This is Awesome buy... I am planning to build one too. But just invested in XPS so I cannot build another one for atleast a year or two.

However, If you are looking for a good monitor, i would recommend the following
LG 38WK95C-W 38-Inch Class 21:9 Curved UltraWide WQHD+ Monitor with HDR 10 (2018) - $1200
LG 38UC99-W 38" 21:9 WQHD+ 3840 x 1600 Curved IPS Monitor - $800
Dell U-Series 38" Screen LED-Lit Monitor (U3818DW) - $900


you can even go for 42 inch 4k monitors for around $600

 
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skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,243
1,398
Brazil
This is Awesome buy... I am planning to build one too. But just invested in XPS so I cannot build another one for atleast a year or two.

However, If you are looking for a good monitor, i would recommend the following
LG 38WK95C-W 38-Inch Class 21:9 Curved UltraWide WQHD+ Monitor with HDR 10 (2018) - $1200
LG 38UC99-W 38" 21:9 WQHD+ 3840 x 1600 Curved IPS Monitor - $800
Dell U-Series 38" Screen LED-Lit Monitor (U3818DW) - $900


you can even go for 42 inch 4k monitors for around $600


Thanks for the advice. However, I live in Brazil and I do not have all those options here (apart from the fact that they usually cost a lot more than in the U.S.).

I have already two monitors, a 31.5” with 3840x2160 resolution, and a 27” at 2560x1440. And they were already pretty difficult to find. I will probably stick with those for some time now.

If you can wait to build a computer, then do so. AMD will release its 7nm Ryzen 3 processors by July, and Intel will deliver its 10th gen Core processors in the end of the year (hopefully in a 10nm process). And there will be probably more offers of video cards by both Nvidia and AMD.
 
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