Carefully reinstalling

[TarkinDale]

Hey folks,

I have a sick late 2013 15 inch Macbook pro. The symptom is that it keeps shutting down without any crash report. It seems stable in safe mode. I took it to an Apple store. They replaced the very worn battery, saying it would be the cause. I picked it up, and sure enough, it’s still happening.
I’m figuring I better try a reinstall before going back to Apple.
I have a fair bit of data (800GB, also backed up in 2 locations). I can wipe the drive if needed to make the install clean.
However, since I first set this up, I’m guessing there have been a few changes done by OS upgrades. At one point my main data folder was shifted to a Previously relocated items folder, and there now appears to be a separate Macintosh HD partition.

Do I need to wipe the entire drive to make sure the OS isn’t an issue? Do I need to do the same to make sure it isn’t third party software?

Any help appreciated.

Cheers

 

[hobowankenobi]

The stability in Safe Mode is a good indicator of a likely software issue. As for culprits, any software with and extensions, including security, VPNs, etc. are possible sources of instability, panics, or crashes. Sometimes it is a combination. Had a bunch of Macs at work that were not stable with both a particular versoin of AV software, VPN software, and a recent OS patch. It happens.


If you have an extra external, you could do a clean OS install to it, and boot to it. It will feel slower (depending on drive type/speed, bus speed, etc), but you could run it that way to test for stability.

You could also clone your existing OS to an external and have it fully bootable, so that you can wipe the internal drive and then do a fresh OS install. With the bootable clone, you can always clone back to if you want. CCC (free trial) can do this for you.

The partition you see is the new normal, so nothing to worry about there. If you choose to erase and start fresh, reformat the "Macintosh SSD Media" itself, and it will automatically erase and rebuild the default containers and volumes.

 

[TarkinDale]

The stability in Safe Mode is a good indicator of a likely software issue. As for culprits, any software with and extensions, including security, VPNs, etc. are possible sources of instability, panics, or crashes. Sometimes it is a combination. Had a bunch of Macs at work that were not stable with both a particular versoin of AV software, VPN software, and a recent OS patch. It happens.


If you have an extra external, you could do a clean OS install to it, and boot to it. It will feel slower (depending on drive type/speed, bus speed, etc), but you could run it that way to test for stability.

You could also clone your existing OS to an external and have it fully bootable, so that you can wipe the internal drive and then do a fresh OS install. With the bootable clone, you can always clone back to if you want. CCC (free trial) can do this for you.

The partition you see is the new normal, so nothing to worry about there. If you choose to erase and start fresh, reformat the "Macintosh SSD Media" itself, and it will automatically erase and rebuild the default containers and volumes.

Thanks for all that info. I don’t have a free external drive to test with (my two have backups on them). If I can pick your brain further…
If I wipe and re-install, can I restore individual apps using the migration assistant? I figure there are only a few core apps I need, and it would be great to test by restoring one at a time.

 

[Fishrrman]

OP:

If you haven't "re-installed" yet, try this first.

Go to the "users & groups" preference pane.

Click the lock on the lower left and enter your administrative password.

Now, click the "+" icon to CREATE A NEW USER ACCOUNT.

MAKE SURE you give it administrative privileges (popup menu).

Give it an "easy to remember" name and password.

When done, quit system preferences.

Now...
Log out of your "regular" account and log into the new temp account.

Don't put anything into it for now. Just leave it "lean and clean".

Try using the computer this way for a while. Do the sudden shutdowns end?

If they DO, then you can assume that it's SOMETHING that's "in" your personal user account, and IS NOT "in the OS".

The trick is... finding out what the problem file is...

All of the above takes only a minute or two (to create).
You can just delete the temp account when you're done with it.

 

[hobowankenobi]

Fishrrman's test of user specific issues is easy and pretty fast. My experience is that it is likely a system wide issue (not user specific), but it is worth testing before wiping and starting over.

As for restoring Applications from backups...that can be very tricky and time consuming depending on application. Some are self-contained, and will functon by simply moving the execuatble, with nothing else installed (outside of unique user preferences). But most apps install bits and pieces all over the place...and finding and restoring those can be challenging, with each one possibly being a bit different.

As I recall, migration assistant does not let one pick and choose, nor is it savvy enough to restore all the related chunks specific to each app. Somebody will correct me if this is in accurate.

On top of this challenge...one risks bringing over the problem-causing app or app-related component in a restore. Generally speaking, it is best to reinstall applicatoins with the latest installers. Most of the time this is fast and painless...unless one no longer has an important license, or the installer is no longer available. Odds are, assuming a software issue is the root of instability, one could move that problem to the new install, especially if we have not identified exaclty what the offending item is.

In short, you can try restoring some apps, but should be prepared for mostly fresh installs. You can however, ususally move user preferences per app pretty safely, if that helps not having to reconfigure defaults (browser history, etc).

 

[TarkinDale]

OP:

If you haven't "re-installed" yet, try this first.

Go to the "users & groups" preference pane.

Click the lock on the lower left and enter your administrative password.

Now, click the "+" icon to CREATE A NEW USER ACCOUNT.

MAKE SURE you give it administrative privileges (popup menu).

Give it an "easy to remember" name and password.

When done, quit system preferences.

Now...
Log out of your "regular" account and log into the new temp account.

Don't put anything into it for now. Just leave it "lean and clean".

Try using the computer this way for a while. Do the sudden shutdowns end?

If they DO, then you can assume that it's SOMETHING that's "in" your personal user account, and IS NOT "in the OS".

The trick is... finding out what the problem file is...

All of the above takes only a minute or two (to create).
You can just delete the temp account when you're done with it.

Thanks for the idea. Creating a test user was something I tried earlier. Unfortunately, it didn’t help.

 

[TarkinDale]

Fishrrman's test of user specific issues is easy and pretty fast. My experience is that it is likely a system wide issue (not user specific), but it is worth testing before wiping and starting over.

As for restoring Applications from backups...that can be very tricky and time consuming depending on application. Some are self-contained, and will functon by simply moving the execuatble, with nothing else installed (outside of unique user preferences). But most apps install bits and pieces all over the place...and finding and restoring those can be challenging, with each one possibly being a bit different.

As I recall, migration assistant does not let one pick and choose, nor is it savvy enough to restore all the related chunks specific to each app. Somebody will correct me if this is in accurate.

On top of this challenge...one risks bringing over the problem-causing app or app-related component in a restore. Generally speaking, it is best to reinstall applicatoins with the latest installers. Most of the time this is fast and painless...unless one no longer has an important license, or the installer is no longer available. Odds are, assuming a software issue is the root of instability, one could move that problem to the new install, especially if we have not identified exaclty what the offending item is.

In short, you can try restoring some apps, but should be prepared for mostly fresh installs. You can however, ususally move user preferences per app pretty safely, if that helps not having to reconfigure defaults (browser history, etc).

Ah well. I had hoping if an OS install worked, that I could load things back until or if it started failing again. Thanks for that.

 

[TarkinDale]

As an update. I completely erased the drive and did a fresh OS install. I’m guessing it’s hardware. ?

 

[hobowankenobi]

As an update. I completely erased the drive and did a fresh OS install. I’m guessing it’s hardware. ?

Oh...so the issue persists?

Long shot, but consider a different version of the OS.

I had a couple of labs full of iMacs that were simply unstable back on 10.14. 10.13 was ok, and 10.15 is fine. But 10.14 would hang on boot and do other weird things. Something about that particular hardware model, firmware, drivers...dunno. Something was not happy. More than 30 iMacs, so it was not a specific or one-off issue. Never did figure it out, just changed OSes and never looked back.

 

[TarkinDale]

I

Oh...so the issue persists?

Long shot, but consider a different version of the OS.

I had a couple of labs full of iMacs that were simply unstable back on 10.14. 10.13 was ok, and 10.15 is fine. But 10.14 would hang on boot and do other weird things. Something about that particular hardware model, firmware, drivers...dunno. Something was not happy. More than 30 iMacs, so it was not a specific or one-off issue. Never did figure it out, just changed OSes and never looked back.

I was on Catalina when this started and updated to Big Sur as part of my troubleshooting. But I like your thinking. Thanks

 

[hobowankenobi]

I was on Catalina when this started and updated to Big Sur as part of my troubleshooting. But I like your thinking. Thanks

Worth a shot, before you throw in the towel. Anoher long shot...boot to an external to rule out the internal storage. Seems unlikely, but SSDs do fail. 2013 is right about the cut-off for being able to easily swap out a SATA drive...no?

 

[TarkinDale]

Apple kept the laptop for a while on the second go. I think it took them a bit to reproduce the issue. Called and said they could try replacing the logic board, but that would bring the total money spent up to $1k. I can’t justify that on an ancient laptop. So now I wait for the new 16 inches to come out. Sigh. I appreciate everyone’s suggestions.

 

[hobowankenobi]

At least you know.

The only other play is a logic board repair, but that is a whole other set of possible risks, and depends on the skill of the shop. Hard to justify for a machine of this vintage. That assumes it is in fact a LB issue, and it is possible to identify and repair. Never done one myself, but of several folks that have had successful repairs.

 

[TarkinDale]

At least you know.

The only other play is a logic board repair, but that is a whole other set of possible risks, and depends on the skill of the shop. Hard to justify for a machine of this vintage. That assumes it is in fact a LB issue, and it is possible to identify and repair. Never done one myself, but of several folks that have had successful repairs.

I think the risk of burning money isn’t worth it for something so old as you say. The delay on the new 16 inch MB pros is driving me mad, but I won’t really be in serious trouble for another month or so when I try need to publish again. I tell you, I’ll be preordering the second they are announced!