Convincing my father about the Macbook Pro advantages...

[jawzzy]

Hey forumers!

So heres my situation. I'm going to college next year and I'm going to buy a low-end, stock Macbook Pro. Now, the way my dad sees it, he'll pay $1000 (the price of the most basic Macbook), and I'll pay the rest to "upgrade." Now keep in mind that I'm going to pay whatever I need to to get the low-end Macbook Pro, its just a question of what portion my father will pay.

Of course, as is logical and prudent of any consumer, he encourages me to only buy what I need. He argues that I only need the most basic Macbook, I argue I need the Macbook Pro for a variety of reasons:

1. I absolutely cannot deal with glossy screens (almost worth 1000 to me).

2. I really do need the 15.4 inch screen (I'm coming from a 19" desktop with 1280x1024 resolution (ew)).

3. I need the keyboard backlighting (to continue my work if my roommate demands the lights off).

4. Futureproofness (for some illogical reason, he keeps writing this off, not sure why, I'll try to work this point)

Now, he keeps denying I need anything except the basic Macbook, calling my requests to upgrade "just for silly games and the like."

I've covered GPU (he absolutely won't acknowledge this, and I understand why, its really is only for gaming and advanced apps that I won't be using, though I will be playing Oblivion (but I can't tell him this!))

Now, I've turned to the forums to get a long list of Macbook Pro exclusive advantages! I'm sure there are dozens I haven't thought of. The best ones are ones that are not readily apparent (I've covered processor, RAM, etc.)

Please forumers, help me to barrage my father with an unstoppable tide of reasons!

(I know that at least one person will say "Just buy it yourself," and, if negotiations break down, I will. I realize the value of one's own purchases, I work every summer and bought among other things, my iPod, my stereo, my current Windoze box, I'm just trying to offset some (or all!) of the costs!)

Thanks in advance!

 

[coogee]

having resisted the urge to post as a father i would recommend staying off the screen talk, that isn't going to sell.
backlighting too, this is a 'bollocks' reason imho

future proofing sounds good. what course are you going to do?

you haven't really sold your needs here either so far?

maybe find a dealbreaker on the macbook, rather than an advantage of the MBP?

 

[DoFoT9]

hhmm im not really sure if you need it. i bought one for myself (i am in high school about to go to uni next year/the year after) the computer will easily last me for a long time. you could argue the issue about colour. haha nah

other then that.. you would only really want the mbp for:
1;the display size/resolution
2;slight markup in power
3;extra ram for running intence apps,vmware etc
4;for the look of it

 

[iW00t]

The illuminated keyboards are overrated, real geeks do not need to see to type!

I mean millions of laptop users exists worldwide, you only need the light from your screen to type properly... so if I were your dad I would not buy that excuse.

Futureproofness is again a dumb excuse, because the base MacBook Pro is like twice as expensive as a MacBook? Trust me. I can THROW my 3 year old MacBook away, buy a new one in 3 years time, and still be a lot more future proof than your MacBook Pro in 6 years time. I would discount that excuse as well.

The only reason why I gone pro is GPU and games. And I will not lie about it.

 

[Erasmus]

So... Is this arguing with your dad to let you buy the MBP with his input of a grand; or you trying to convince him to buy you the low end MBP outright?

Especially if it's the former, I seriously doubt that you'll get much flaming in this forum, people here respect students willing to pay some of the cost of a new computer.

So what are you doing in University? If your doing something like Science or Engineering, you will be using programs such as Matlab, which the faster CPU would really help with, as would the extra RAM. Solidworks, or other CAD programs use the GPU, so the MBP would perform better.

Tell him about the better screens, with LED backlights. Its quite possible that the MBP could outstrip the MB in terms of battery life by a tad, but I don't know. LED backlights will last longer, look better, are brighter, etc.

In terms of future proofing, tell your dad that a MBP will last you throughout Uni, and probably a bit after as well, depending on how long your degree is. It can take at least 4 GB RAM, possibly more. The MB can only take 3. The Graphics card is also a good point on future proofing, because future programs will probably become more dependent on the GPU, especially with the ability of the new GPUs to run code that normally the CPU would be forced to run. I don't see how a MB would last more than 2-3 years before it can't run the latest software well. I would expect the MBP to run the latest software for well over 4 years. I suppose this depends on what software you use though.

Well, good luck, and if I think of anything else, I'll tell you. But I think agreeing to keep the MBP for 4-5 years would be a good start.

 

[DoFoT9]

So... Is this arguing with your dad to let you buy the MBP with his input of a grand; or you trying to convince him to buy you the low end MBP outright?

Especially if it's the former, I seriously doubt that you'll get much flaming in this forum, people here respect students willing to pay some of the cost of a new computer.

So what are you doing in University? If your doing something like Science or Engineering, you will be using programs such as Matlab, which the faster CPU would really help with, as would the extra RAM. Solidworks, or other CAD programs use the GPU, so the MBP would perform better.

Tell him about the better screens, with LED backlights. Its quite possible that the MBP could outstrip the MB in terms of battery life by a tad, but I don't know. LED backlights will last longer, look better, are brighter, etc.

In terms of future proofing, tell your dad that a MBP will last you throughout Uni, and probably a bit after as well, depending on how long your degree is. It can take at least 4 GB RAM, possibly more. The MB can only take 3. The Graphics card is also a good point on future proofing, because future programs will probably become more dependent on the GPU, especially with the ability of the new GPUs to run code that normally the CPU would be forced to run. I don't see how a MB would last more than 2-3 years before it can't run the latest software well. I would expect the MBP to run the latest software for well over 4 years. I suppose this depends on what software you use though.

Well, good luck, and if I think of anything else, I'll tell you. But I think agreeing to keep the MBP for 4-5 years would be a good start.

you could have used yourself as an example, using the cube. thats an example right in itself there. i spose that even the mb would still run awsomely in 4-5years time. but the mbp would run it beter
just argue that the mbp would last ALOT longer

 

[iW00t]

you could have used yourself as an example, using the cube. thats an example right in itself there. i spose that even the mb would still run awsomely in 4-5years time. but the mbp would run it beter
just argue that the mbp would last ALOT longer

Perhaps. But does it last twice as long? That is the good question.

It really boils down to want vs need, and apart from literally the content creation pros, very few people, including the bulk of the working class users, need a MacBook Pro.

 

[DoFoT9]

Perhaps. But does it last twice as long? That is the good question.

It really boils down to want vs need, and apart from literally the content creation pros, very few people, including the bulk of the working class users, need a MacBook Pro.

yeap true. the bulk of mac users would have their macs for at least 5 years regardless. i spose thats because everything is still supported (less things to create drivers for etcetc.). macs tend to last longer i spose. im not sure how you can work out how..they just do, more care by the users maybe

 

[3nm]

i had a MB and switched to a MBP cos i couldn't stand MB's KB. if you are paying the difference, why need further reasonings?

 

[jawzzy]

Haha, I figured I'd get some fathers weighing in! All the better for a better argument!

I'm really going to be doing standard school stuff (so the processing power of a Macbook really would suffice), but when writing papers I often have many programs open at once, say 2 or 3 word files, 2 or 3 Firefox windows, iTunes, 2 .pdfs, AIM, Mail, probably downloading something, etc. So I know the 2GB RAM and the processor will help with this.

I'd also like to keep this laptop for a good 5 or 6 years, which my dad says is impossible/ "Steve Jobs knows how to keep you buying." I tell him that many mac users are still using old computers because it is a perectly good option. I guess I'll push longevity as a point.

I'm going to major in Politics-Philosophy-Economics with (maybe) a minor in Computer Science, but I doubt I'd be doing any hardcore tech stuff on my personal computer, most likely I'd use the computer science labs. I really can't leverage this point, I know there is no chance he'd buy it.

Anyway, to all the dads, what would be a good reason for the extra funds?

 

[blackstone]

I think most of your reasons fall squarely into the "want" category rather than the "need" category. I mean, does anyone ever need a backlighted keyboard?

That said, if you'd like your dad to chip in more, then I think the most sensible strategy is as follows: First, figure out which Macbook configuration meets your needs, and what that costs. Then, get him to agree to contribute the value of whatever that Macbook is. You can then pay your own money on top of that for any of your "wants" (i.e. the backlit keyboard, GPU, and shiny aluminum of the MBP).

For example, the base Macbook has a combo drive and 80Gb hard drive, whereas the base MBP has a Superdrive and 120Gb hard drive. 80Gb is a little cramped for a new computer, if you've already got music and videos and stuff on it. And a Superdrive is useful for backups and carrying around big files that won't fit on a USB drive. So, in my view, the computer you could reasonably "need" would probably not be the base Macbook, but the one with a Superdrive and bigger hard drive, which is a couple hundred bucks more than the base version.

 

[iToaster]

Perhaps. But does it last twice as long? That is the good question.

It really boils down to want vs need, and apart from literally the content creation pros, very few people, including the bulk of the working class users, need a MacBook Pro.

Ah, yes, but we don't really "need" a computer, but we'd be thought outdated and weird if we didn't. And true not a lot of people need a MBP but we do want one for a variety of reasons, and there are specific advantages to the MBP. As for selling parents on things you really really want, I can't really advise much, but the MBP advantages are: 2.2 or 2.4 Ghz intel core 2 duo (a few Mhz make a little difference), dedicated graphics (major reason for my purchase), FW 800, express card 34, different design, backlit keyboard, "better" speakers, matte or glossy screen, more RAM, larger screen, larger variety of HDs from Apple. Disadvantages: larger case (not height), less battery life (kinda). It's up to you to use these to your advantage OP.

 

[chadi]

The best excuse IMHO is the size of the screen, that is if you want to have 2 side by side comparison documents open for research (say safari + NeoOffice) or what not. That's the reason I bought the 17" MBP mainly. The GPU is nice if I need it but it wasn't a major issue with my purchase.

All the other points are really moot.

I agree with the person who said in 3 years he could throw away his current MB and buy a new one and it would be more future proof except for the GPU...but again you already stated you don't NEED the gpu, if you want to play games just get an Xbox or keep a PC around.

 

[samh004]

I will admit that KB backlighting has come in handy a few times for me on my old PB, but it wasn't a feature I used regularly. I suppose it's good to have for when you need it.

Most of the points you've raised yourself are points I have been mulling over for some time myself, as reasons that I can do without a MBP. Screen real estate has also been a big one for me, but with Spaces coming soon, and the ease of just connecting it to a cheap external screen, screen real estate isn't an issue, at least for me.

Obviously the biggest reason you need a MBP is for games, or "game" in your case. Consider bringing up the issue that your not always going to work, you have to find time to unwind every so often and you'd be very frustrated with a MB playing your game.

Something you could use, depending on your family circumstances, is environmental friendliness. The new MBP is very good in that regard compared to the other computers, and that might be a good selling point if your family cares about that sort of stuff. It's small compared to everything else, but it all adds up.

Working against you I could also say, it's possible to upgrade the RAM in the MB to 2GB, so you don't need that 2GB pre-installed in the MBP, however working for you, the MBP is a bit more expandable (by 1GB)... however when do you think your going to need 4GB of RAM ?

As for the HDD, both the MBP and MB can be upgraded, so this can go either way for you. If you want one system to run windows and mac, then your going to need a larger HDD, which in itself is a good reason to give your dad, perhaps he would pay for that larger storage space.

 

[Fayler]

Hey forumers!

So heres my situation. I'm going to college next year and I'm going to buy a low-end, stock Macbook Pro. Now, the way my dad sees it, he'll pay $1000 (the price of the most basic Macbook), and I'll pay the rest to "upgrade." Now keep in mind that I'm going to pay whatever I need to to get the low-end Macbook Pro, its just a question of what portion my father will pay.

Of course, as is logical and prudent of any consumer, he encourages me to only buy what I need. He argues that I only need the most basic Macbook, I argue I need the Macbook Pro for a variety of reasons:

1. I absolutely cannot deal with glossy screens (almost worth 1000 to me).

2. I really do need the 15.4 inch screen (I'm coming from a 19" desktop with 1280x1024 resolution (ew)).

3. I need the keyboard backlighting (to continue my work if my roommate demands the lights off).

4. Futureproofness (for some illogical reason, he keeps writing this off, not sure why, I'll try to work this point)

Now, he keeps denying I need anything except the basic Macbook, calling my requests to upgrade "just for silly games and the like."

I've covered GPU (he absolutely won't acknowledge this, and I understand why, its really is only for gaming and advanced apps that I won't be using, though I will be playing Oblivion (but I can't tell him this!))

Now, I've turned to the forums to get a long list of Macbook Pro exclusive advantages! I'm sure there are dozens I haven't thought of. The best ones are ones that are not readily apparent (I've covered processor, RAM, etc.)

Please forumers, help me to barrage my father with an unstoppable tide of reasons!

(I know that at least one person will say "Just buy it yourself," and, if negotiations break down, I will. I realize the value of one's own purchases, I work every summer and bought among other things, my iPod, my stereo, my current Windoze box, I'm just trying to offset some (or all!) of the costs!)

Thanks in advance!

I had a similar problem when dealing with my father about my laptop, which ended up being a low end 15" MBP with an upgraded hard drive. My dad always asked me if the $500 or so Celeron laptops that Best Buy has were "good enough" and always grumbled when I said "No, they aren't." Luckily, I had my mother to talk to, who gets computers. Reguardless of whether your mother is a computer person, if she isn't involved in this decision yet, get her involved.

Step 1 for getting a better computer: Get your mother involved on your side.

Now, As everyone knows, technology moves fast, and unfortunately, the Macbook kind of gets the short end of the stick. Its a basic laptop, albeit a premium basic laptop, but as graphics and programs get more demanding, the lack of a video card WILL hinder performance at some point when you run something. It is definitely worth having a dedicated video card. I would try to convince your father of this. If you get a macbook, how long will it be before you have to replace it? Maybe 2 years? I know many people who bought the top end mac laptops when they came out and they're still using them to do very great things.

Step 2 for getting a better computer: Convince your father of future proofing.

You probably already know this but it should be said: Use your student discount! Its awesome!

Step 3 for getting a better computer: Use your student discount.

Thats all I can think of right now. Remember to stick with things you -need- in the Macbook Pro, don't use want.

 

[jellz]

yeah #3 is such a bad reason. Most people I know didn't even do their work in their rooms! But if your roomate asks you to turn off the lights you can alway go work elsewhere. It's all about comprising with your roomie, and depending on your luck he might be an ass

 

[Erasmus]

you could have used yourself as an example, using the cube. thats an example right in itself there. i spose that even the mb would still run awsomely in 4-5years time. but the mbp would run it beter
just argue that the mbp would last ALOT longer

Yeah. I intended to, but forgot.
There you go. Almost 7 years old, still does most of what I need from it. Certainly all of my word processing, internetting and music needs. I suppose I could get it to do Matlab, but I don't think there's much point. Would be much too slow for some of the things I will need Matlab for in the future. A group assignment I did a few weeks ago included a Matlab script that took like 20 mins to run on a recentish Powerbook. Don't want to know how long it would have taken on my Cube. No doubt a 2.2 or 2.4 GHz MBP would run it in a few minutes.

And I do agree with 'blackstone'. If you can't convince your Dad to buy you the bottom MBP, then you could probably use the Superdrive (backup purposes) faster CPU and larger HDD to convince him to pay for the middle MB, if not the black. Then your only down to 500 or so you have to pay. Or whatever the difference is.

You could use the Computer Science minor to justify it, because the extra RAM, faster speed and GPU would really help there, but the rest of your degree, I dunno. I'm sure a MB would do you fine, especially if its the middle white one.

Also, if you are over 18, do some research into the Student ADC program. You get a nice discount on MBPs, but no discount on MBs (so, naturally, you use it on a MBP, and the price difference between MB and MBP decreases) you'll also most likely get sent the new operating system Leopard sometime after its released, saving you a further $99.

Here in Australia, the Edu discount is about 12% off normal prices. The ADC discount is about an extra 8%, for the cost of AU$150 (Its much less in America of course, even with the exchange rate. US$129? Something like that) The discount more than makes up for the cost. And you get a free t-shirt, and random developer stuff Apple sends you. I imagine the discount is similar in America. So this should save you in total an extra $100 or so, plus maybe the cost of Leopard.

Do a search in Macrumours for ADC. Its well worth it.

 

[jawzzy]

Yeah, blackstone, I was contemplating configuring up a proper (ie. no combo drive and larger than 80GB HD) Macbook and asking for that amount of money.

The environmental thing (just no mercury?) is a good one, as is the advantage to the "kinda-longer-ish-possibly-but-not-really" battery life (I can just say "Hey dad, it has a longer battery life!'). I never really thought about the better IO connectors (fw 800 and expresscard 34), I'm sure I could push that. (Its the little things that add up!) I can tell him that the MBP is more upgradeable than the Macbook (at least where RAM is concerned).

My major concern is if i bring up the GPU issue, he'll write everything off as for gaming (I could point out that I need to unwind, but this is a small issue for him). Will word processing, internet, and maybe some more slightly more advanced applications be increasingly reliant on GPU?

I might run Photoshop a bit, but its really not important enough to leverage THAT much.

I've offered him the Nano that I can get, and I know he kinda wnats it, but he just says "O, I'll buy one myself," which I know he won't!

We are making good progress! Keep the advice coming please! I LOVE the forums!

 

[Erasmus]

Again, I urge you to have a look into the ADC discount, although unfortunately the iPod rebate cannot be used with it, so you'd have to weigh up which is more beneficial to you.

I believe even simple programs will become increasingly reliant on the GPU in the near future. For example, look at Vista, and how demanding that is on the GPU to run Aero, think of the new effects in Leopard that will no doubt require a bit of graphics horsepower, and think that if you keep the computer for 4 or 5 years, that's at least 2 OS releases AFTER Leopard, and so think of what kind of graphics power they will require for their fancy effects. My computer runs Tiger really well, but in Dashboard, I don't get any of the water ripple effects when dropping widgets. I'm sure the 128MB 8600M GT will be perfectly capable of driving anything except the latest games even 5 years from now. Integrated graphics, not so sure. I believe the Integrated graphics can pull off Aero, at least on small screens, but it's pretty close. Their MAY be an angle you can get at with DX10 OpenGL 2.1 compliant hardware, but I don't know what it would be.

BTW, Apple says the MB and MBP have the same battery life, 6 hours. The MBP obviously gets this score driving a bigger screen, and powering (idle, but it's still there) the GPU. The MBP should I reckon have a longer battery life because you can dim the screen further (advantage of LEDs) and the new platform has a few extra power saving features, I believe the CPU cores have an extra "super idle" throttle 'bin?' and a "turbo bin" setting to run single threaded apps really fast. Should like to see some benchmarks wrt that.

The MBP case should keep better than the MB case, as long as you look after it. The Aluminium will scratch and dent if you drop it, but tiny scratches should not be noticeable from everyday use, unlike the MB. Tell your dad how much better the MBP looks too!

By the way, if your not going to College until next year, then you should probably wait. If you really need it now, then that's OK, but if you can wait just a few weeks, then do, and hopefully Apple will have sorted out some of the issues with uneven colour screens, and so you will have a lower chance of getting a lemon, and having to waste time getting it replaced. If you can wait until next year, new processors will be coming out (Search "Penryn", do NOT make a new thread, else you'll get flamed to a crisp) which should improve battery life a lot, while improving performance a whole lot too.

Oh, and the MB keyboard SUCKS!!! MBP keyboard all the way!

 

[Illicit]

Point: The Macbook glossy screen stresses your eyes a lot.
Case: The extra $800-900 you'll spend on a MBP to ease that strain will undoubtedly be less than a new pair of glasses every year, not to mention the permanent damage it would inflict on your ocular muscles, assuming you spend hours a day staring at the monitor.

Point: The screens contain no mercury.
Case: You're an environmentalist. (this would be a stronger argument if you were actually conservative in real life)

Point: If you have an ADC discount, you are saving more money with a more expensive purchase.
Case: If it's a once-in-a-lifetime purchase, why not spend extravagantly on something more durable?

To be really honest, even my engineering colleagues who use macbooks have no complaints. The only upside to a non-arts student using an mbp over an mb is really for the games..but good luck!

 

[DoFoT9]

To be really honest, even my engineering colleagues who use macbooks have no complaints. The only upside to a non-arts student using an mbp over an mb is really for the games..but good luck!

dont forget the AWSOME thin-ness and amazing looks of the thing. i mean its so simple, but it looks really really good.

im not sure if this is a pro or a con, but in winter (where i currently am) i use my mbp to heat my room. just shut the door and its all sweet.

 

[Illicit]

dont forget the AWSOME thin-ness and amazing looks of the thing. i mean its so simple, but it looks really really good.

im not sure if this is a pro or a con, but in winter (where i currently am) i use my mbp to heat my room. just shut the door and its all sweet.

I wouldn't suggest that to a father to convince him..
a macbook pro "heater"...I think I see another Apple 'hobby' coming up around the corner!

 

[uicandrew]

Of course, as is logical and prudent of any consumer, he encourages me to only buy what I need. He argues that I only need the most basic Macbook, I argue I need the Macbook Pro for a variety of reasons:

1. I absolutely cannot deal with glossy screens (almost worth 1000 to me).

2. I really do need the 15.4 inch screen (I'm coming from a 19" desktop with 1280x1024 resolution (ew)).

3. I need the keyboard backlighting (to continue my work if my roommate demands the lights off).

4. Futureproofness (for some illogical reason, he keeps writing this off, not sure why, I'll try to work this point)

Now, he keeps denying I need anything except the basic Macbook, calling my requests to upgrade "just for silly games and the like."

I've covered GPU (he absolutely won't acknowledge this, and I understand why, its really is only for gaming and advanced apps that I won't be using, though I will be playing Oblivion (but I can't tell him this!))

Now, I've turned to the forums to get a long list of Macbook Pro exclusive advantages! I'm sure there are dozens I haven't thought of. The best ones are ones that are not readily apparent (I've covered processor, RAM, etc.)

Please forumers, help me to barrage my father with an unstoppable tide of reasons!

actually the reasons you give are weak ones

the 13 macbook is more futureproof since the harddrives are user replaceable

the macbook is also more durable with the polycarbonate case. and if you get a dent in the mbp casing, that means abuse and applecare is voided

besides, the extra portability of the 13 inches makes it easier to lug around and therefore more likely to be lugged around and therefore more useful

video cards are only good for games. even video encoding uses cpu, not gpu.

the screen is so bright that backlighting is unnecessary
you should get a regular macbook

 

[boobooq88]

Show him the leopard demos! haha. you also gotta look at this from a software side rather than just hardware. toss in no viruses, spyware, etc. Harder to hack. and so on. The computer last longer because OS X puts less stress on the hardware than windows does on a PC is another good one.

Yea... just dont forget the software side as well.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

future proofness is correct, your dad is right

while the MBP's are actually built on fresher technology than the mac books, buying anything like this with future proofing as the arguement just flat out doesnt work

i mean look, the otherday nvidia announced the mobile 8700GT GPU.... the 8600GT mobile gpu was released a mere 33 days prior to that.

things move exceptionally fast in technology land and you can pretty much guarantee that what ever you buy now, will almost certainly be superceded by significant margin in a years time.

also the 15.4 inch screen its 1440x900 res...its a bit of a naff res if you ask me. but its better than 1280x800 i guess.

if you need to do cad work etc then i you could argue that you'll need the added graphics power for that.

EDIT: i see you dont need that.

i wouldnt worry about size, lugging laptops around happens less frequently than you think, at least in my experience they stay on desks at home/dorms

the good thing about the new 8600's - full HD 1080p decoding on the GPU, CPU time is usually sub 20%.... but its not like a decent speed C2D cant handle HD content anyway.