OP: See how much fun we can have?
Oh yeah it's been a ton of fun!
I just wanted some advice and I've actually gotten some so I guess that's what matters right?
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Critique of Logo for Web Design Business
- Thread starter dkotter
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Oh yeah it's been a ton of fun!
I just wanted some advice and I've actually gotten some so I guess that's what matters right?Oh yeah it's been a ton of fun!
Some of it does seem harsh but it just doesn't help when you're not taking in good advice! A good few people have all offered help on how to brand yourself but you keep coming back with "people won't understand"... you have to have more faith in the potential clients (I have to correct you there too, you're not marketing to the "general public").
You can't simply market your services as something completely different because it doesn't 'fit' – i'm guessing you have some experience in a defined field.... so tell people about that field not something else!
I know some brilliant web developers... they're website's and logos are nothing to write home about.... so, open a new llustrator/PS document, write your company name (remember.... you're a 'developer').... set half of the text to Helvetica Light, the other half to Helvetica Bold... set it to 70% black... and guess what? You've got your new logo.
I appreciate your advice but I think I have been listening to what people have been saying. I can design a web site, maybe not with a real fancy logo, but I can do everything else fine, I believe. And every company I've dealt with so far already have logos, which I don't know if that's how it always will be, but for now I can "design" a complete site, so I see nothing wrong with calling my business a design business. But I'm not sure I'm sticking with the name at this point, but I'll probably keep web design in my name, since that is what I'm doing and I'm not marketing myself as something completely different, in my opinion.
The bottom line is that anyone who gives design away without charging for it, cheapens the industry. You are doing a disservice by offering to do something cheap, let alone for free.
I'm done, I've made my point.
You asked for honest replies so here it is: you're terrible. Worse, you claim to know what you're doing. Objectively, you don't. I've been a designer for nearly 14 years and my 8 1/2 year old daughter has produced more riveting work than the junk you're posting here. You have no understanding of typography or design. You can hawk yourself as a "web developer" until the cows come home, but the fact is REAL web development embodies REAL design which you are - thus far in your life - incapable of. Spend a year or two at a REAL interactive shop and you'll learn more than you ever dreamed. Experience breeds expertise and so far you have neither. Feel free to call me and anyone else who posts an earnest reply here "rude" but you're far better off hearing it here than from someone who wrote you a check.
First off you know absolutely nothing of my design skills besides the one logo I put on here. So don't even try and tell me I am incapable of design work. If I had posted actual examples of websites I have done, then maybe you could tell me I am a horrible designer. But guess what? I haven't posted any of that. So seriously get a life and stick with criticizing something you have at least some information about. No one is forcing you to post here so please stay away unless you know what you're talking about.
roar08 - Critique the work. Not the person.
dkotter - not much else I can add to this discussion. A truly good designer is confident in his abilities, but is always open to the possibility that he can be better. I have never once encountered a competent designer who thinks that he has learned all there is to know about design. If you're asking for a critique and not liking what you're hearing, then perhaps you need to reconsider your design abilities.
Your original logo concept is clearly lacking, but not having seen the rest of your work, I can't judge your design capabilities. Remember your job is do create the best website for your clients. Be aware of your personal strengths and weaknesses. If you're asked to design something outside of your realm, don't hesitate to outsource it to someone who can do it. (That way, you can take a markup on the outsourced work).
dkotter - not much else I can add to this discussion. A truly good designer is confident in his abilities, but is always open to the possibility that he can be better. I have never once encountered a competent designer who thinks that he has learned all there is to know about design. If you're asking for a critique and not liking what you're hearing, then perhaps you need to reconsider your design abilities.
Your original logo concept is clearly lacking, but not having seen the rest of your work, I can't judge your design capabilities. Remember your job is do create the best website for your clients. Be aware of your personal strengths and weaknesses. If you're asked to design something outside of your realm, don't hesitate to outsource it to someone who can do it. (That way, you can take a markup on the outsourced work).
Wow, this thread has gotten really venimous.
The way I see it, the OP's logo design skills clearly need some work, be that practice or training or whatever. However, logo design is a very specialized and particularly challenging area of design, and it's entirely possible for a designer to be able to design a webpage layout and yet be mediocre when it comes to logos. (Just as it's possible to be great at designing print layouts but not have a clue how to design something that will work well online, and vice-versa.)
To the OP: keep practicing. Don't sell your clients on something you don't have the skills to do well (unless, as suggested above, you subcontract), but also don't let the naysayers discourage you from keeping at it until you do get to be good.
The way I see it, the OP's logo design skills clearly need some work, be that practice or training or whatever. However, logo design is a very specialized and particularly challenging area of design, and it's entirely possible for a designer to be able to design a webpage layout and yet be mediocre when it comes to logos. (Just as it's possible to be great at designing print layouts but not have a clue how to design something that will work well online, and vice-versa.)
To the OP: keep practicing. Don't sell your clients on something you don't have the skills to do well (unless, as suggested above, you subcontract), but also don't let the naysayers discourage you from keeping at it until you do get to be good.
I don't mind the critique on the logo, but saying I can't be a web designer based on one logo design isn't fair, in my opinion. But thanks for the advice. I'm not afraid to outsource, especially if it's something like a logo design that I can't do well.
And yes you have to do what the client wants. And web design is different then other design mediums. You can't just make a site that looks good. You have to make a site that works right. And by works I mean it has to function but it also has to be easy to use. And to figure that out you have to do usability testing, focus groups, surveys, etc. So someone that designs for a living may look at a site I do and say it sucks, but I'm not designing for them. I'm designing for the client and for the people that will be using that site.
Thanks for the advice. I still have a couple semesters left in school so I'll have plenty of time to keep practicing and learning. And if I can't ever get logos done right, it's quite easy to outsource it and have others help me out.
This is the whole point he's missing. The plain fact of the matter is there are thousands of people doing what he says he can do well PLUS they CAN design logos...
So who are you going to hire? A web designer who has to get other people to do logos and anything else they can't do OR a designer who can do everything?
Unfortunatly for this guy *there are so many people out there who can offer the complete service *and are very very good at it.
I made this point earlier, you can argue that it's not right or somehow 'unpure'. Classicly a branding expert designed the brand *a digital designer did any online treatment, a print designer did the litreature and an advertising expert developed the ads. But as we all know, this simply is no longer the case. Skills have merged and clients expect designers to do a whole lot more than they used to. That's why if one has a very narrow skill set (sorry, but on evidence this is the case) then to ignore this fact is asking for trouble.
Depends. Do you need a logo designed, or do you already have one? What are the rates charged by each designer? Does one have a style that meshes better with what you like? Does the one who can't do logos design better layouts than the other? Is one better than the other at the technical aspects? Does one have a personality that you work better with? Does one come with a recommendation from a friend or colleague who says s/he is reliable, while the other is an unknown quantity?
Sure, all else being equal, why not take the guy who can also do logos, but how often is all else truly equal? There's plenty of room in the world for web designers / developers who can't design logos, and it's absurd to yell "get out of the business!" at anyone who can't.
Errrrrrrrr YES! We're sying the same thing...
My point is: The OP should be clear about what services he CAN offer. So if someone does want a developer because they have a logo.... they could get the OP because that's what he does! Whereas if they need a completely revamped branding along with the web build he's probably not the best choice. Yes?
Yes.
I guess I thought a lot of the vitriol directed at the OP was unnecessary, since he isn't claiming to be a logo designer, despite claiming to be a web designer.
I don't think that's what caused the reaction people have given *I think it's more the fact that he was given the same good advice by a number of people and seems stuck in his ways not to listen and argues back with flawed/invalid thinking. Most people were trying to help.
Good advice? Last time I checked telling people how horrible they are, that they are going to fail, etc., isn't good advice. Especially when you have no idea of my web design skills. That's not flawed/invalid thinking. You seriously need to read through the entire thread before you try and act like you know everything. And if you have read through it, you obviously don't understand what's been said. I've taken the advice about the logo, and other advice about how to present myself to clients so I'm not advertising falsely, but attacking me personally isn't called for and doesn't help at all.
I don't see why I can't have someone else design a logo if I can't, especially if I let my clients know up front that I'll get them a logo, but I won't be doing it personally. They shouldn't care as long as it's the quality they want at the price they want. I don't have to do everything myself on a web site if I have others I believe are better suited to do a particular aspect of it. I don't think that makes me any less of a web designer.
Edit: But honestly enough has been said. I have gotten the answer to my original question (remember that?) and a lot of other advice, useful and what not. This thread just needs to finish its slow and painful death.
Lots of people on here have already done what you are trying to do. They have sold themselves to get clients, got clients and maintained clients. Some people were overly personal and no-one should ever wish anyone else to fail. I have absolute respect for anyone who goes out there and makes things happen for themselves rather than sitting back and waiting for a meal ticket.
You said you were a student so to be honest – there are people on these forums who do know a lot more than you do. Rather than being defensive try and understand what they are suggesting, I know sometimes comments can take a far to cutting edge but they might have something useful in there.
You are speaking from a perspective where you believe things should and will work a certain way. With experience yo'll find out that the industry doesn't always work like that.
You said you were a student so to be honest – there are people on these forums who do know a lot more than you do. Rather than being defensive try and understand what they are suggesting, I know sometimes comments can take a far to cutting edge but they might have something useful in there.
You are speaking from a perspective where you believe things should and will work a certain way. With experience yo'll find out that the industry doesn't always work like that.
I thought I was being open to what others had to say and wasn't really getting defensive at all until people started attacking things about me that they had no clue about. I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way. I know I still have a ton to learn and that things will change as I get more experience. And I really am grateful for all the response and advice people have had. I'll try and take it all into consideration and let it shape me into a better direction.
There is constructive criticism and there is destructive criticism, the fact that this is a student should further illustrate that point (in my opinion).
In saying that, to the OP, unfortunately when you are in the design industry you need to have thick skin and try to not take things too personally. You will come across a lot of people in the industry who will try to chew you up and spit you out for whatever the reason. For a lot of them, it is nothing personal, just the way they are, brutally honest shall we say, or very Simon Cowel like. Over time you learn to pick your battles.
It's unfortunate that you have run into this on a web forum as a student looking for help, but perhaps it is a good learning lesson and a taste of what the "real world" can be like, or at least the design industry. Just take it with a grain of salt and try your best to be a sponge (wherever you may end up after school) and soak up the experiences and skills of others. I think a poster already eluded to the point that you will learn more in a year of shadowing a decent Sr. designer than you will in 2-3 years of school, or any online course, tutorial or book.
Your last post there leads me to believe that you have a good head on your shoulders and have chalked this up as a somewhat painful learning lesson or perhaps an unfortunate eye opener not only in critiques but also in dealing with certain types of people. I wish you future success.
In saying that, to the OP, unfortunately when you are in the design industry you need to have thick skin and try to not take things too personally. You will come across a lot of people in the industry who will try to chew you up and spit you out for whatever the reason. For a lot of them, it is nothing personal, just the way they are, brutally honest shall we say, or very Simon Cowel like. Over time you learn to pick your battles.
It's unfortunate that you have run into this on a web forum as a student looking for help, but perhaps it is a good learning lesson and a taste of what the "real world" can be like, or at least the design industry. Just take it with a grain of salt and try your best to be a sponge (wherever you may end up after school) and soak up the experiences and skills of others. I think a poster already eluded to the point that you will learn more in a year of shadowing a decent Sr. designer than you will in 2-3 years of school, or any online course, tutorial or book.
Your last post there leads me to believe that you have a good head on your shoulders and have chalked this up as a somewhat painful learning lesson or perhaps an unfortunate eye opener not only in critiques but also in dealing with certain types of people. I wish you future success.
^All that + one last thing to always remember in design indutry's: If it isn't negative feedback... it's useless!
(Just thought i'd add - I am half-joking there... though... only half)
(Just thought i'd add - I am half-joking there... though... only half)
^All that + one last thing to always remember in design indutry's: If it isn't negative feedback... it's useless!
(Just thought i'd add - I am half-joking there... though... only half)
Generally feedback is good, specific feedback (neg or pos) is better but you will get critiques like the follow (and yes these are from client emails)
"Can you make the graphics more webbish?"
"Can you do the whole flash site in flash? Please put more videos in people like lots of videos on web pages it makes it far more interesting."
"It would look a lot nicer if the logo was bigger and you changed the font to Papyrus because really I like that font."
"You're a designer, I can't see how designing a logo can be too much different compared to a whole web site. It's in essence the same thing except for more space you can use."
"My wife has a craft group she has just started, so she really is a great designer. So she will be designing the logo but you'll still need to do the web site for us though. Could you also give her a lesson in Elements so she can start on the creative?"
"I am after nice graphics, you know the kind where people say 'wow those are nice graphics'..."