D700s Today...

[impulsiveideas]

Hello,

I am in a situation where I must purchase a nMP before the end of 2015. No choice... have to buy.

This is what I have spec'ed out:

6 Core Processor
512GB SSD
Dual AMD D700s

My question is... If a Mac Pro refresh hits in the next few months, what is out there that would be significantly faster than the Dual D700s?

Am I safe in spending the extra money for the high end card, or will a new Mac Pro blow that away? I know the move from Ivy Bridge to Haswell would be a minor bump, but the GPU is what concerns me the most.

 

[Kpjoslee]

I don't know what kind of situation that would put you in "must purchase nMP before the end of 2015".....
I don't expect any new GPUs that would fit the power limit of nMP until they release their new GPU line with brand new process in mid-next year.

 

[bax2003]

If you consider recent Mac Tower History, GPU upgrades never been "blow away" generation to generation.

ATI Rage 128 Pro

ATI Radeon 7500

ATI Radeon 9000 Pro

NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti

ATI Radeon 9700 Pro

NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL

ATI Radeon 9800 Pro / XT

ATI Radeon X850 XT

NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GT

NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500

NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT

NVIDIA Quadro FX 5600

ATI Radeon HD 4870

NVIDIA Quadro 4000 Mac

ATI Radeon HD 5870

NVIDIA Quadro K5000 Mac

AMD FirePro D700

These are fastest cards for every generation of towers....and if you compare step by step there is never a HUGE difference. Furthermore, GPUs are often generation behind current PC GPUs.

 

[impulsiveideas]

I don't know what kind of situation that would put you in "must purchase nMP before the end of 2015".....
I don't expect any new GPUs that would fit the power limit of nMP until they release their new GPU line with brand new process in mid-next year.

Basically a combination of taxes and a work allotment I have for a new machine...

 

[Redneck1089]

I was actually just in the same situation as you and ordered a 6-core, 1 TB, D700 version last week. I have the computer sitting right next to my cMP with a GTX 980 Ti Superclocked in it.

As far as GPU performance goes...it's pretty damn close for gaming under Crossfire. The D700s are superior to the GTX 980 in Tomb Raider by about 2 fps, and almost identical in Battlefield 4 under maximum (ultra with AA) settings. The GTX 980 Ti Superclocked blows the D700s away in games like the Witcher 3, however, because of drivers. Even Titanfall seems to have a bit of difficulty with stuttering under Crossfire mode...but it's still most definitely playable on max settings at 1600p.

For pro apps the D700s are still great. Also with El Capitan and Metal coming soon, you'll get some improvement.


I'm actually really impressed with my nMP. It won't replace my cMP anytime soon, but it's small and portable, and I'm going to be travelling internationally a lot starting September.

Good luck with your choice.

 

[koyoot]

If you are asking what GPUs can get to Mac Pro in replacement for D700 I will tell this:
D700 has 2048 GCN cores in one chip.
Grenada Chips: 2560 GCN cores, and 2816 GCN cores
Fiji Pro: 3584 GCN cores. Fiji XT: 4096 GCN cores. And there is a lot that is pointing to the fact that Fiji chips will be in next Mac Pro.

 

[deconstruct60]

...
Am I safe in spending the extra money for the high end card, or will a new Mac Pro blow that away?

The new Mac Pro isn't going to make a D700 you own slower. Spending on a high end card now really should be largely dependent upon whether the D700 adds more value for getting your current/future work done than a D500 or D300 will. If so then it is worth spending money for the increased productivity/revenue. If not this is more so an exercise of "spending other peoples money".

If this is really more so about "I'm going to blow money on a card that makes no different in productivity" that will stick out more now if something new comes quickly? That is a different issue. That is more so of "what can I do to gather more info to create a better cover story". If it is a Dec 31, 2015 tax deadline then waiting for the probable October dog and pony show Apple will cover "guess what new gadgets you can buy before the end of the year?". If no Mac Pro there then relatively "safe" to buy now so there is a large enough gap between your buy and the new Mac Pro (which was in another tax year anyway ... so it "doesn't count" ).

If the system has to ship and be billed before Dec 31 and Apple says they will start to ship sometime relatively late in December then you have a timing problem. If the company's procurement system is sloth slow and it takes 2+ to get something then October is 'too late'.

If thinking about resale value after new Mac Pro comes out the D700 will probably hold up better than the others long term.

The pool of "I have to spend it right now or else" money creates its own negatives that have little to do with hardware technology cycles or capabilities. If "have to" spend right now and the budget is already allocated to use or evaporate and will not be given more budget for this next year then a D700 probably will be useful more longer. ( better drivers are probably coming so will eek out more performance in the future. Most software isn't get the max out those D700's right now.)

My question is... If a Mac Pro refresh hits in the next few months, what is out there that would be significantly faster than the Dual D700s?

The Mac Pro 2013 is coming up on being a two year old machine. Any GPU in the same class that is newer than 2 years old is going to be incrementally better on similar workloads. Some workloads will be bigger jumps than others.

The Mac Pro 2013 was about 3 years newer than the 2010 era GPUs Apple used to comparisons with on the current Mac Pro marketing pages.

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/performance/

However, a fair number of the "revolutionary" jumps on those charts were as much to do with changing from x86 to fully enabled GPGPU computations and huge shifts in VRAM as they are just linear graphics throughput jumps. The next update probably wouldn't be as big along the same set of software ( Apple may dig up some cherry benchmarks that are but that generally isn't what is coming soon. )

 

[netkas]

The Mac Pro 2013 was about 3 years newer than the 2010 era GPUs Apple used to comparisons with on the current Mac Pro marketing pages.

To be fair, first gcn card was released at very end of 2011 (just a week or too until NY), so I would call it 2012 era tech, still very old, but 2x7970 still manage to be as fast as one R9 Fury X

 

[Redneck1089]

To be fair, first gcn card was released at very end of 2011 (just a week or too until NY), so I would call it 2012 era tech, still very old, but 2x7970 still manage to be as fast as one R9 Fury X

Yeah, and like I said above, for high end gaming they are still perfectly acceptable in Crossfire mode. Very comparable to my GTX 980 Ti too. *shrugs*

The nMP is actually a great little computer.

That being said, when the new one comes out I'm sure it's graphical performance will be greatly increased. It happens...

 

[poematik13]

I was in this same situation earlier this year, needed an nMP ASAP for an incoming stream of projects. Got a 6c/d500 and do not regret it at all, it really improved my workflow.

Whatever update that comes out, probably early next year, will only be an incremental boost and not something as groundbreaking as the 2012 to 2013 redesign.

 

[ActionableMango]

Apple holds the price of Macs steady. Today, 1.5 years later, you'll pay the same price someone else did on Day 1, despite getting outdated hardware that has fallen in value. The best value is right when a new model is released. The worst value is the last day.

Looking at this:
https://buyersguide.macrumors.com//#Mac_Pro
The average number of days between Mac Pro releases is 449. Right now we are at 603 days since the last release. The longest number of days between releases was 685.

The numbers say that if there isn't at least a "spec bump" by the end of the year, it will be record-breaking for the Mac Pro. So this far in I'd hold out for a new model, if possible.

 

[Redneck1089]

Apple holds the price of Macs steady. Today, 1.5 years later, you'll pay the same price someone else did on Day 1, despite getting outdated hardware that has fallen in value. The best value is right when a new model is released. The worst value is the last day.

Looking at this:
https://buyersguide.macrumors.com//#Mac_Pro
The average number of days between Mac Pro releases is 449. Right now we are at 603 days since the last release. The longest number of days between releases was 685.

The numbers say that if there isn't at least a "spec bump" by the end of the year, it will be record-breaking for the Mac Pro. So this far in I'd hold out for a new model, if possible.

I agree, I think that there will be some sort of an update before year's end. The problem is what GPUs will they use - AMD's new ones are all too power hungry and hot. Also, What about Thunderbolt 3? Will it be ready for the end of this year? If not, then everything will likely just be a small spec bump (processors, ram, maybe GPUs?), kind of like a few years ago when we were all dying for an update on the cMP.

Anyways, it will be interesting to see what Apple does. In the meantime, both the old cMP and the current nMP are damned good computers.

 

[MacVidCards]

I agree, I think that there will be some sort of an update before year's end. The problem is what GPUs will they use - AMD's new ones are all too power hungry and hot. Also, What about Thunderbolt 3? Will it be ready for the end of this year? If not, then everything will likely just be a small spec bump (processors, ram, maybe GPUs?), kind of like a few years ago when we were all dying for an update on the cMP.

Anyways, it will be interesting to see what Apple does. In the meantime, both the old cMP and the current nMP are damned good computers.

Don't forget that Apple now ships SSUBX drives that are 50% faster then what came in nMP at launch. I confirmed that moving one into nMP gives 50% speed bump. Would be interesting to know what they put in nMP bought today. If they are still using the SSUAX drives then they have gone out of their way to be able to say "New drives in 7,1 MP are 50% faster then before !!!"

As far as the D700s, I have been trying to articulate a thought I had.

What is a "mobile GPU"? It is typically a desktop card that has had it's wings clipped, it's RAM cut down, functional units made non-functional, no display outputs on card, just an edge connector and then of course a name befitting a better card. (GTX780M is really a GTX680 GK104 core, etc) In short, Apple created their own Mobil GPUs already for nMP.

Again, for emphasis, the nMP is ALREADY running mobil GPUs. So, whatever comes in 7,1 will be same kind of thing. Detuned, declocked, devolted versions of existing desktop cards. If they go with AMD, they will have to do more in the castration department. If they go with Nvidia, they won't have to use the clippers as much.

 

[Redneck1089]

Don't forget that Apple now ships SSUBX drives that are 50% faster then what came in nMP at launch. I confirmed that moving one into nMP gives 50% speed bump. Would be interesting to know what they put in nMP bought today. If they are still using the SSUAX drives then they have gone out of their way to be able to say "New drives in 7,1 MP are 50% faster then before !!!"

As far as the D700s, I have been trying to articulate a thought I had.

What is a "mobile GPU"? It is typically a desktop card that has had it's wings clipped, it's RAM cut down, functional units made non-functional, no display outputs on card, just an edge connector and then of course a name befitting a better card. (GTX780M is really a GTX680 GK104 core, etc) In short, Apple created their own Mobil GPUs already for nMP.

Again, for emphasis, the nMP is ALREADY running mobil GPUs. So, whatever comes in 7,1 will be same kind of thing. Detuned, declocked, devolted versions of existing desktop cards. If they go with AMD, they will have to do more in the castration department. If they go with Nvidia, they won't have to use the clippers as much.

Interesting take on the GPU situation, and you might be right with what they will do. Of course, if TB 3 has eGPU support and Apple allows it, the built in GPUs won't be a huge issue anymore. Have you had any luck getting eGPUs on the current nMP working under Windows? It would be fantastic to bring my GTX 980 Ti to the nMP.

As far as the SSD goes in the nMP...I received my build to order nMP last week with a 1 TB SSD. I have seen a lot of people post videos on YouTube running the BlackMagic speed test and getting around 975 mb/s. When I run BlackMagic on mine I'm getting in the ballpark of 1350-1375 mb/s. So, maybe Apple has changed something in the current nMP? I can post a video of the test if people would like. I believe the SSDs in the new MacBook Pros are still faster, however.

As much as I used to hate on the nMP design compared to the traditional cMP, I'm really starting to see the appeal. I literally take it with me everywhere right now. I can't do that with my old one, which is, and has always been, relegated to my main office. Also with my travel schedule the ability to pack this much power into a small form factor that I can take with me is great. So what I'm trying to say is that I see both sides of the coin - nothing replaces the traditional desktop style computer...but having something small like this has it's perks too. It's just too bad we can't have the option for both.

 

[MacVidCards]

As far as the SSD goes in the nMP...I received my build to order nMP last week with a 1 TB SSD. I have seen a lot of people post videos on YouTube running the BlackMagic speed test and getting around 975 mb/s. When I run BlackMagic on mine I'm getting in the ballpark of 1350-1375 mb/s. So, maybe Apple has changed something in the current nMP? I can post a video of the test if people would like. I believe the SSDs in the new MacBook Pros are still faster, however.

Interesting, just have a look at the part number in system profiler.

The SSUAX drives had an "F" in there, the SSUBX have a "G"

(right after 1024 as I recall)

Yes, would have been an amazing machine, if there was a real computer available as well. Calling it "top of the line" strained credibility in 2013. Today, is merely laughable. Imagine if Anandtech did a "What can $10K workstation do?" comparison? nMP would be laughed to the bottom of every chart and graph except the "cute" one.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Interesting take on the GPU situation, and you might be right with what they will do. Of course, if TB 3 has eGPU support and Apple allows it, the built in GPUs won't be a huge issue anymore. Have you had any luck getting eGPUs on the current nMP working under Windows? It would be fantastic to bring my GTX 980 Ti to the nMP.

As far as the SSD goes in the nMP...I received my build to order nMP last week with a 1 TB SSD. I have seen a lot of people post videos on YouTube running the BlackMagic speed test and getting around 975 mb/s. When I run BlackMagic on mine I'm getting in the ballpark of 1350-1375 mb/s. So, maybe Apple has changed something in the current nMP? I can post a video of the test if people would like. I believe the SSDs in the new MacBook Pros are still faster, however.

The larger the capacity the faster the blades are, up to a point. See spec sheets for XP941 (UAX controller). The 1TB versions are manufactured specially for Apple but they also run hotter than the OEM.

 

[Arron Rouse]

As far as the D700s, I have been trying to articulate a thought I had.
[...]
Again, for emphasis, the nMP is ALREADY running mobil GPUs. So, whatever comes in 7,1 will be same kind of thing. Detuned, declocked, devolted versions of existing desktop cards. If they go with AMD, they will have to do more in the castration department. If they go with Nvidia, they won't have to use the clippers as much.

The D700 is a 7970 that has had its core clock reduced by 8% to fit the thermal profile of the nMP. The number of shader processors, ROPs, and TMUs are exactly the same as the reference desktop 7970 board. The memory clock and memory bus width are the same. The D700/7970 is well out of date but in no way is it a mobile part.

To me, these bizarre Nvidia-fanboy rants of yours over the last few weeks are really undermining your credibility.

 

[theSeb]

Apple holds the price of Macs steady. Today, 1.5 years later, you'll pay the same price someone else did on Day 1, despite getting outdated hardware that has fallen in value. The best value is right when a new model is released. The worst value is the last day.

Looking at this:
https://buyersguide.macrumors.com//#Mac_Pro
The average number of days between Mac Pro releases is 449. Right now we are at 603 days since the last release. The longest number of days between releases was 685.

The numbers say that if there isn't at least a "spec bump" by the end of the year, it will be record-breaking for the Mac Pro. So this far in I'd hold out for a new model, if possible.

I don't think we will see a refresh until Skylake Xeons come out.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I don't think we will see a refresh until Skylake Xeons come out.

It would make customers even angrier if it came out just before Skylake Xeon and Thunderbolt 3.

 

[MacVidCards]

The D700 is a 7970 that has had its core clock reduced by 8% to fit the thermal profile of the nMP. The number of shader processors, ROPs, and TMUs are exactly the same as the reference desktop 7970 board. The memory clock and memory bus width are the same. The D700/7970 is well out of date but in no way is it a mobile part.

To me, these bizarre Nvidia-fanboy rants of yours over the last few weeks are really undermining your credibility.

Go ahead and detail the D300 and D500. And keep in mind what "mobile GPU" means.

 

[Redneck1089]

Interesting, just have a look at the part number in system profiler.

The SSUAX drives had an "F" in there, the SSUBX have a "G"

(right after 1024 as I recall)

Yes, would have been an amazing machine, if there was a real computer available as well. Calling it "top of the line" strained credibility in 2013. Today, is merely laughable. Imagine if Anandtech did a "What can $10K workstation do?" comparison? nMP would be laughed to the bottom of every chart and graph except the "cute" one.

It appears to still be the older design: EDIT: Misread - it's the newer design.
APPLE SSD SM1024G

I am getting good speeds, however.

 

[Fl0r!an]

The D700 is a 7970 that has had its core clock reduced by 8% to fit the thermal profile of the nMP. The number of shader processors, ROPs, and TMUs are exactly the same as the reference desktop 7970 board. The memory clock and memory bus width are the same. The D700/7970 is well out of date but in no way is it a mobile part.

Exactly the same applies to a real mobile GPU like the M370X in the latest rMBP: Same chip as the oldie HD 7770 with same features, just downclocked so the MacBook won't melt.

 

[Bradleyone]

It appears to still be the older design:
APPLE SSD SM1024G

I am getting good speeds, however.

Actually, MacVidCards' information suggests this is one of the new, faster models:

Interesting, just have a look at the part number in system profiler.

The SSUAX drives had an "F" in there, the SSUBX have a "G" (right after 1024 as I recall)

That would explain your 50% boost over the YouTube Blackmagic benches.

Good stuff!

I suppose your lucky machine was assembled when you CTO'd last week and they grabbed the latest parts off the shelf.

 

[Redneck1089]

Actually, MacVidCards' information suggests this is one of the new, faster models:



That would explain your 50% boost over the YouTube Blackmagic benches.

Good stuff!

I suppose your lucky machine was assembled when you CTO'd last week and they grabbed the latest parts off the shelf.

I believe you are right; I misread MVC's post.

I would have been happy either way, but it's a pleasant surprise!

 

[Arron Rouse]

Go ahead and detail the D300 and D500. And keep in mind what "mobile GPU" means.

No. I'm not joining in with your shark jumping. You explain how a 150W D300 is a "mobile GPU". I mean, seriously dude, what's next? Are you going to say that Crossfire isn't a real way to interleave two cards because it uses the PCIE bus to communicate and you don't have to run a VGA cable between cards like a pair of Voodoos?

Exactly the same applies to a real mobile GPU like the M370X in the latest rMBP: Same chip as the oldie HD 7770 with same features, just downclocked so the MacBook won't melt.

That would be because the reference 7770 was designed to be a low-ish power chip in the first place, probably with an eye on top-end laptops. Even at the full 800MHz clock it only uses 75W and takes all the power it needs from the PCIE slot.