DAC Quality on 2021 MacBooks?

[vincenz]

Apple marketed the DAC on the new MBPs as being high quality and able to drive high impedance headphones. Compared to older MBPs, which were already excellent, has the gap between the on board DAC and an external DAC been narrowed appreciably or even closed?

Any impressions would be appreciated. I’ve been eyeing the Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 200m as a first DAC, but not sure if there would be any difference given how the new MBPs have an improved DAC already. I’ve tested the headphone jack from a 2016 and a 2021 MBP and can notice a slight improvement for a couple headphones, FWIW.

 

[pi=e=3]

I hear no difference vs my JDS Atom stack, Zen Stack (well, the Zen is on the warmer side) or even Qudelix 5k. It even drives a set of planars (Hifiman Sundara) quite well.

 

[UBS28]

With the 16" M1 Max MBP, don't bother with external DAC + amplifiers. You really got to spend alot of money to get something significantly better.

 

[bill-p]

Yeah, don't bother. The onboard DAC basically renders a lot of DACs under a certain price point obsolete. I think you'll only start to hear an improvement beyond something like the Schiit Bifrost 2. And even then, you need a very good amp to pair with the Bifrost 2 as well.

The way I look at it, if your budget is tight, you really don't need to spend money on "small improvements".

 

[J.Gallardo]

Improvement has been done in the amp/jack part. Apple's DAC remains a mystery, as usual.
It's always been a good quality DAC, but not very sophisticated. It would not (e.g.) play AppleMusic hi-res content up above 96kHz, (which is hi-res by itself). Resolution is topped at 24bit 96kHz, and that is enough.
But you don't have to spend a fortune to get a BETTER DAC that Apple's internal. I use a Topping D10s, have a Shanling UA1. Both offer much more resolution (up to 384kHz), are quite cheap and sound quality is really good. You don't really need these if you're not an audiophile or work seriously with Logic Pro or sound production.

"I’ve tested the headphone jack from a 2016 and a 2021 MBP and can notice a slight improvement for a couple headphones, FWIW".

For sure. The output jack now is able to adapt signal to different impedances (Ω) that different earphones use. It's a nice and elegant upgrade (not usually found in standard sound equipment).

 

[Sanpete]

The new one sounds good to me, but I haven't tried any determined critical listening. Haven't seen any audiophile reviews yet either, but one Youtuber who mixes music vaguely termed the DAC very good but not as good as some offboard ones. He was mainly testing volume.

There's this remark on equipment I'm not familiar with:

High impedance headphone jack on new M1 Max 16 inch MacBook Pro

You are assuming. I am well aware of the difference. I am also well aware of the CD quality vs lossless etc and all the debates. I’ve read it all plus the opinions a million times. Yes, thanks, it is a monster. I am not assuming. This is what I conclude after read this line of yours: I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

There seems to be a little more volume even for low-impedance headphones, and enough power for some but not all high-impedance phones. I've used some Beyerdynamics DT 1990 Pros (250 ohm) with them with good results, but I haven't tried to be picky about it. People using Sennheiser HD600 series and even HD800 have been pleased.

The new jack delivers 1.25W or 3W depending on impedance, with the cutoff at 150 ohms. Don't know how much power the old one has.

It even drives a set of planars (Hifiman Sundara) quite well.

I've seen two reports that it gives the Sundaras good volume but that they don't sound their best, mushy. Same with several other planars, which are typically not high-impedance, so the extra power doesn't kick in. There doesn't seem to be any way to enable it manually. Still, some people have been happy with the results with some planars.

 

[bill-p]

The new jack delivers 1.25W or 3W depending on impedance, with the cutoff at 150 ohms. Don't know how much power the old one has.

The old one could provide 2Vrms and was pretty powerful for a headphone port out of any laptop. I think the new MacBooks basically make many low-end dedicated audio players (DAP) obsolete.

I've seen two reports that it gives the Sundaras good volume but that they don't sound their best, mushy. Same with several other planars, which are typically not high-impedance, so the extra power doesn't kick in. There doesn't seem to be any way to enable it manually. Still, some people have been happy with the results with some planars.

Yeah, I can confirm this. Planars are low impedance and don't trigger the circuit to switch gain to 3Vrms. Even with 300-ohm headphones, I sometimes have to unplug/replug in order to get the gain to be set properly.

 

[Sanpete]

The old one could provide 2Vrms and was pretty powerful for a headphone port out of any laptop.

That's curious, as the new ones running low-impedance phones seem louder. Should be quieter at 1.25V RMS.

 

[bill-p]

That's curious, as the new ones running low-impedance phones seem louder. Should be quieter at 1.25V RMS.

Yeah, the new one is quieter. I have 2 IEMs that are fairly sensitive to noise, and it is true the new MacBook has much less hiss and background noise compared to the previous gen. It hisses less even in comparison to the M1 model.

 

[Sanpete]

Yeah, the new one is quieter. I have 2 IEMs that are fairly sensitive to noise, and it is true the new MacBook has much less hiss and background noise compared to the previous gen. It hisses less even in comparison to the M1 model.

To be clear, I'm talking about volume. My new one is louder than my 2016 15".

 

[bill-p]

Ah, yeah, I believe that may be due to the the new one having more... power delivery overall. I haven't measured precisely where the limit is, but it makes sense that going from 3Vrms to 1.25Vrms, the output should be able to provide more current to drive the IEM/headphones.

That may also explain why some feel like their planar magnetic headphones, which only care about current, sound better than last gen devices.

 

[Kafka]

I don't have planars but it drives my Beyer DT 1990 extremely well. If not for this I would seriously consider returning the machine, but damn this feature is too good.

Edit: actually, even my low impedance headphones (Nightowl and MSR7) sound a bit better. Damn, how can I ever go back to another computer now.

 

[cubbie5150]

A friend told me he really likes the sound quality he's getting out of the hp output from his 2021 MBP, and he's more picky than I am when it comes to audio.

I am totally in the portable game, thus it's all IEMs and earbuds for me. I currently use a USB bus/host device powered DAC/amp for all my IEM/earbud listening with my old 2014 MBP; it's from a company called Luxury & Precision, and the model is the W2. Looks like this:

Over the last couple years, due to portable sources I've opted to buy (digital audio players like the Sony WM1A), I have also transitioned all my cable terminations to 4.4mm balanced. Assuming the W2 works without issue with my yet-to-be-shipped 2021 16" MBP, I'll continue using it. However, I do like reading that many audio enthusiasts are please with the sound output from these new MBPs. I have some single-ended 3.5mm IEMs/buds headed my way to try out, so I'll give the hp outout a shot once I get my new MBP.

 

[snipr125]

The recent ifixit teardown of the Macbook Pro 2021 revealed the internal DAC to be the ‘Cirrus Logic CS42L84A-CWZ Audio Codec’ and also ‘Texas Instruments SN012776B0 Audio Amplifiers’, to power the internal speakers and maybe the headphone jack also.

MacBook Pro 14" 2021 Chip ID

Apple introduced its M1 Pro/Max processors in the 2021 MacBook Pros. How do these new in-house SoCs change the rest of the logic board’s silicon?...

www.ifixit.com

 

[Jl006p]

Apple marketed the DAC on the new MBPs as being high quality and able to drive high impedance headphones. Compared to older MBPs, which were already excellent, has the gap between the on board DAC and an external DAC been narrowed appreciably or even closed?

Any impressions would be appreciated. I’ve been eyeing the Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 200m as a first DAC, but not sure if there would be any difference given how the new MBPs have an improved DAC already. I’ve tested the headphone jack from a 2016 and a 2021 MBP and can notice a slight improvement for a couple headphones, FWIW.

I plugged in my Sennheiser 650s (300 ohms) and they worked fine. I'm just happy that I can bring them with me and use them without having to carry around my FiiO E17. I wish they'd bring back the optical audio ability. My 2012" MBP and 2013 trash can Mac had optical audio.

The overall theme with the ports on this MacBook is that they're great when you're in a pinch. Yeah it's not HDMI 2.1, yeah it's not USH-III SD card slot, yeah it's not the best amp+dac but they are all readily available without me having to carry any freaking dongles/adapters. For someone that travels a lot it is much appreciated. We can nitpick here and there but I honestly thought I'd never see the legacy ports back on a MacBook ever again.

 

[kithytom]

wondering if the new MBP can drive HD 800 easily as well. The specs on paper suggests though.

 

[fa8362]

It doesn't compare at all well to a $1300 RME ADI-2 DAC FS, but only a fool would expect it to.

​

 

[alba63]

I am torn between the new Mac Studio with it's high impedance outputs and a lower Mac Mini M1.
I listen to music through my computer all day long, audio quality is not unimportant to me. I listen from my headphone output jack, through a pair of decent, but not highend (active) studio monitors from JBL which I may upgrade to better ones in a forseeable future.
Question: would I possibly hear an audio quality difference between the older Mac mini M1 audio output and the new Mac Studio audio output (possibly identical to the Macbook M1pro/max output)? Or will the difference be so small that it is irrelevant?

 

[J.Gallardo]

I am torn between the new Mac Studio with it's high impedance outputs and a lower Mac Mini M1.
I listen to music through my computer all day long, audio quality is not unimportant to me. I listen from my headphone output jack, through a pair of decent, but not highend (active) studio monitors from JBL which I may upgrade to better ones in a forseeable future.
Question: would I possibly hear an audio quality difference between the older Mac mini M1 audio output and the new Mac Studio audio output (possibly identical to the Macbook M1pro/max output)? Or will the difference be so small that it is irrelevant?

There’ll be no difference in audio quality, sure 100% about the speakers. The impedance improvement is made only to be kind to high impedance headphones: those would sound very low plugged to standard output jacks, needing an external headphone-amp if your use is centered on headphones.
It’s a welcomed feature, but it shouldn’t have nothing to do with quality; just a very convenient feature for some headphones (in musical production, an output able to drive whatever kind of headphones is a nice advance).
To get the most accurate sound from your mac, perhaps you should consider using digital out through usb in a future (which is the only way to possibly improve sound). Jack-out in macs gives a nice quality sound, and the only problem was high impedance, hard to move, headphones. And that specific use is the only affected, and nicely upgraded in new macs.

 

[Cosmo M3]

Reviving an old thread.

I've compared the noise and overall sound quality between my 2021 14" MBP against these two DAC/AMPs using both my Focal Clear and the everyone's baseline, the Sennheiser HD6XX.

• Topping DX3 Pro +
  • Focal Clear: no difference to my ears in terms of volume, but to me, the MBP has a bit more life behind the volume. There were some songs where the MBP just sounded better than the Topping.
  • HD6XX: While the DX3 Pro+ can easily power these, the MBP really kicked it into higher gears across the frequency. I don't know how to describe it, but you can hear the difference.
• JDS Labs Element III
  • Focal Clear: I think this pairs very well with the Element III and sounds just as clean and clear, but then again when I plug it into the MacBook Pro, it sounds more "alive". These are not hard to drive by any means, so the difference is small.
  • HD6XX: This is where I noticed the most difference. I have to crank up the volume to -20 dB on the Element to get the same volume as the MBP at 30-40% when it's directly plugged into the headphone jack. The difference is even more noticeable as the MBP really gives it that extra punch, especially around the bass and it's noticeable. The Element III can easily power most headphones, but it felt weaker compared to the MBP by a significant margin.

Conclusion

I think the new MBP's AMP/DAC is seriously underrated and slept on. There is no reason to spend hundreds of dollars on external DACs and AMPs (imagine those power bricks and cables everywhere for stacks). Apple really killed it with the headphone jack.

 

[engseng]

On the 2019 MacBook Pro, when I plug in the Apple EarPods into the 3.5mm audio jack I get very loud and clear sound. The music already sounds very loud even when I only raise the volume bar up to 3 bars. I find the EarPods useful in conference calls when it is hard to hear people over the laptop speakers.

I pair the 2019 MacBook Pro with the Topping E50 and Edifier speakers. This combination is giving me amazingly beautiful sound. The soundstage is very wide, there's clear separation between the mids and highs, all the voices and instruments are distinctly clear, and then there's this lovely harmony of the voices singing together. Only thing is that the bass is limited by the speakers. I would say that this sound is indeed superior to the DAC in the MacBook Pro. If this is video, it's like watching an HD quality video compared to an SD quality video.

 

[engseng]

Improvement has been done in the amp/jack part. Apple's DAC remains a mystery, as usual.
It's always been a good quality DAC, but not very sophisticated. It would not (e.g.) play AppleMusic hi-res content up above 96kHz, (which is hi-res by itself). Resolution is topped at 24bit 96kHz, and that is enough.
But you don't have to spend a fortune to get a BETTER DAC that Apple's internal. I use a Topping D10s, have a Shanling UA1. Both offer much more resolution (up to 384kHz), are quite cheap and sound quality is really good. You don't really need these if you're not an audiophile or work seriously with Logic Pro or sound production.

"I’ve tested the headphone jack from a 2016 and a 2021 MBP and can notice a slight improvement for a couple headphones, FWIW".

For sure. The output jack now is able to adapt signal to different impedances (Ω) that different earphones use. It's a nice and elegant upgrade (not usually found in standard sound equipment).

How do you find the Topping D10S? This should be a great DAC for the price.

 

[Cosmo M3]

On the 2019 MacBook Pro, when I plug in the Apple EarPods into the 3.5mm audio jack I get very loud and clear sound. The music already sounds very loud even when I only raise the volume bar up to 3 bars. I find the EarPods useful in conference calls when it is hard to hear people over the laptop speakers.

I pair the 2019 MacBook Pro with the Topping E50 and Edifier speakers. This combination is giving me amazingly beautiful sound. The soundstage is very wide, there's clear separation between the mids and highs, all the voices and instruments are distinctly clear, and then there's this lovely harmony of the voices singing together. Only thing is that the bass is limited by the speakers. I would say that this sound is indeed superior to the DAC in the MacBook Pro. If this is video, it's like watching an HD quality video compared to an SD quality video.

I felt the 2019 DAC/AMP to be underwhelming compared to the newer 2021 models - in retrospect.

 

[J.Gallardo]

How do you find the Topping D10S? This should be a great DAC for the price.

I’m quite happy with Topping d10s.
I‘ve tried two or three portable DACs (minimum size, for phones & alike), but almost all of them had some small inconvenience for desktop use. The best in this category (in my inventory) is a Red Dragonfly.
But I wanted a stable unit, with some more info at sight, and “plug & forget”. The Topping unit showed good technical ability (in specialized webs/forums) and is not too expensive.
Better sound quality is assured, IF you have a good amplifier and very good speakers to appreciate the difference. My mac outputs lossless Apple Music files through the DAC to a NAD amplifier and a pair of floor standing Q-Acoustic speakers. Sound is superb IMHO. My Apple TV outputs sound to the TV set, and this TV is connected to same amp and speakers. ”Music” in Apple TV is also lossless streaming, BUT sound is quite worse!! (blame the TV dac).
So: a DAC can make a good job if you love music and have a decent equipment.
I feel continuously tempted to get a better DAC, but I can’t justify getting it, as the Topping is doing its job, wonderfully.
I find quite convenient the simplicity of the D10s unit, as it takes power from USB and no extra wires are needed (just RCA to the amp); it goes on when mac is on, goes off when shutting.
And added convenience is that MacOS makes a good job with external sound equipment; you can drive “system sounds” to mac’s internal speakers and keep media sound going to external DAC. Of course, you can always choose sound way out from “sound icon” in upper menu bar in MacOS (I do that if it’s too late and perhaps my big speakers could bother the neighborhood).
(Spending 100-200 € in a DAC gives you the best quality, and more expensive models don’t show a noticiable better functioning).

 

[Rik2000]

Just to put another data point on here.TLDR - I am running with a fairly exotic combo, but the 14" M1 MacbookPro (2022) is definitely limited.

FYI, my DAC is the chord MOJO, running at 768kHz (I know, just because it can, I'm not sure the frequency makes that much difference, at least not to my ears), and my headphones are Focal Stellia's.

The difference is very clearly there in all frequencies but most notably in full-range music where the top-end tends to lose definition and the bass becomes boxy as the signal chain run out of "budget".

I would personally always upgrade the analog bit first (your headphones/IEM's), but once you've reached the limit there, then a decent DAC is great. Mine is relatively portable and can work with my [cheap Android] phone too where the need is much greater.