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TrevorR90

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 1, 2009
379
299
Did anyone else notice that the AMD bootcamp drivers now say "Mac Pro (2019-2021)" ?

Screenshot 2021-08-19 003833.png




EDIT: Apple just released updated drivers for bootcamp and removed 2021. So perhaps it was an error on AMD's part lol

Screenshot (1).png
 
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casperes1996

macrumors 604
Jan 26, 2014
7,599
5,770
Horsens, Denmark
It's because the W6000X GPUs are 2021 GPUs for the Mac Pro. While you can put one in a 2019 Mac Pro, you could not buy a 2019 Mac Pro with those GPUs at the time of its release, so it's, in terms of the GPU, a 2021 Mac Pro, even though it's not a 2021 Mac Pro
 
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bsbeamer

macrumors 601
Sep 19, 2012
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Is Apple "technically" selling the new GPU configurations of the MacPro7,1 as Mac Pro 2021? Similar to what it did with MP5,1 2010 and MP5,1 2012.
 
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MisterAndrew

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Sep 15, 2015
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It's because the W6000X GPUs are 2021 GPUs for the Mac Pro. While you can put one in a 2019 Mac Pro, you could not buy a 2019 Mac Pro with those GPUs at the time of its release, so it's, in terms of the GPU, a 2021 Mac Pro, even though it's not a 2021 Mac Pro
I don't think so. The W5500X & W5700X came out last year and they didn't list it as 2020 Mac Pro, only 2019. It's possible the new Intel Mac Pro is coming before the end of the year.

 
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bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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I don't think so. The W5500X & W5700X came out last year and they didn't list it as 2020 Mac Pro, only 2019. It's possible the new Intel Mac Pro is coming before the end of the year.


Weren't the 5XXX series GPUs announced less than a month after first MP7,1 delivery?
 

TrevorR90

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 1, 2009
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I don't think so. The W5500X & W5700X came out last year and they didn't list it as 2020 Mac Pro, only 2019. It's possible the new Intel Mac Pro is coming before the end of the year.

My thoughts as well, they updated the drivers late last year for the w5700x and it was still listed as a 2019 Mac Pro.
 
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MisterAndrew

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Sep 15, 2015
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Weren't the 5XXX series GPUs announced less than a month after first MP7,1 delivery?
Ahh, you're right. It was 2019 when W5700X was announced.


But wait! The W5500X was launched last year. I still think a 2021 Mac Pro is possible.

 

bsbeamer

macrumors 601
Sep 19, 2012
4,313
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Had previously read reports the W5500X was supposed to be available much earlier in 2020 and the 580X was not supposed to be available after 2020. COVID impacts likely messed up all of those roadmap plans. AMD went back to supplying 580's in several markets due to issues with chip shortage, lack of parts and assembly issues. Would not be surprised to see the 580X models "retired" from new sales when existing supply is depleted and GPU price changes for others (probably minus $200-$250 across the 5XXX series).

If we're technically assessing the naming, I'd barely consider the late 2019 Mac Pro a 2019 model since most received in 2020. Little sense to rebrand or differentiate at that point, also would sort of be admitting Apple really missed delivery date target.

A clear roadmap probably would have 5XXX series as Mac Pro 2020 and 6XXX series as Mac Pro 2021. Think true professionals would appreciate if that was the case and something they could count on. If any Intel MP8,1 has MPX support (would be a failure on Apple's part if not) these can easily be stockpiled and used off the shelf in any new Intel model.
 

jscipione

macrumors 6502
Mar 27, 2017
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Had previously read reports the W5500X was supposed to be available much earlier in 2020 and the 580X was not supposed to be available after 2020. COVID impacts likely messed up all of those roadmap plans. AMD went back to supplying 580's in several markets due to issues with chip shortage, lack of parts and assembly issues. Would not be surprised to see the 580X models "retired" from new sales when existing supply is depleted and GPU price changes for others (probably minus $200-$250 across the 5XXX series).

If we're technically assessing the naming, I'd barely consider the late 2019 Mac Pro a 2019 model since most received in 2020. Little sense to rebrand or differentiate at that point, also would sort of be admitting Apple really missed delivery date target.

A clear roadmap probably would have 5XXX series as Mac Pro 2020 and 6XXX series as Mac Pro 2021. Think true professionals would appreciate if that was the case and something they could count on. If any Intel MP8,1 has MPX support (would be a failure on Apple's part if not) these can easily be stockpiled and used off the shelf in any new Intel model.

Do you consider the trashcan Mac Pro 6,1 which first shipped in December 2013 but most customers did not actually receive theirs until January 2014 to be a 2013 Mac? Do you consider the iMac Pro where only the 8 and 10 core versions shipped in December 2017 and most customer didn't actually receive theirs until January 2018 to be a 2017 Mac?

We can play this game all day but the 2019 Mac Pro is just as much a 2019 Mac as those others are 2013 and 2017 Macs and the 8,1 will probably be in a similar situation technically shipping December 2021 but most customers won't actually get the machine in their hands until at least January 2022 (assuming the rumors are correct and Apple actually ships an 8,1 Mac Pro in December.)

I imagine that the RX 580 may be replaced by the W5500X in the base model Late 2021 Mac Pro but we'll have to wait and see on that.
 

AlexMaximus

macrumors 65816
Aug 15, 2006
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Do you consider the trashcan Mac Pro 6,1 which first shipped in December 2013 but most customers did not actually receive theirs until January 2014 to be a 2013 Mac? Do you consider the iMac Pro where only the 8 and 10 core versions shipped in December 2017 and most customer didn't actually receive theirs until January 2018 to be a 2017 Mac?

We can play this game all day but the 2019 Mac Pro is just as much a 2019 Mac as those others are 2013 and 2017 Macs and the 8,1 will probably be in a similar situation technically shipping December 2021 but most customers won't actually get the machine in their hands until at least January 2022 (assuming the rumors are correct and Apple actually ships an 8,1 Mac Pro in December.)

I imagine that the RX 580 may be replaced by the W5500X in the base model Late 2021 Mac Pro but we'll have to wait and see on that.
Most important, there will be some older MP 7.1 coming up on e-Bay, once the 8.1 is available for the Devine professionals. Question remains, will have a used mint MP 7.1 in December 21 have a price tag that equals an original iMac Pro price tag, hence finally reachable for the non professional enthusiast type of Apple fan boy :):);)
 

TrevorR90

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 1, 2009
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Most important, there will be some older MP 7.1 coming up on e-Bay, once the 8.1 is available for the Devine professionals. Question remains, will have a used mint MP 7.1 in December 21 have a price tag that equals an original iMac Pro price tag, hence finally reachable for the non professional enthusiast type of Apple fan boy :):);)
I doubt the 7,1 will take a nose dive in value but that all depends on what the 8,1 offers. If its just a CPU refresh than value will remain where they are today.
 

fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
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I doubt the 7,1 will take a nose dive in value but that all depends on what the 8,1 offers. If its just a CPU refresh than value will remain where they are today.
Yeah they'd need to go down like $2-3K for those people to be happy, and I doubt that would happen.
 

SegNerd

macrumors 6502
Feb 28, 2020
307
308
Although I believe there may indeed be a new Intel Mac Pro coming, this seems like an awful idea to me. Why would you pour thousands of dollars into something that has already been EOLed?
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
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Although I believe there may indeed be a new Intel Mac Pro coming, this seems like an awful idea to me. Why would you pour thousands of dollars into something that has already been EOLed?

1. It hasn't been EOLed. It is still for sale.

2. Thousands? Probably closer to several million for a limited update ( certification in several countries, marketing and sales overhead , contractor set up and management overhead , project management overhead , new firmware updates , board reflow, macOS base kernel andl library tweaks , compiler tweaks, etc. etc. )

Even if it something like $2M. Apple takes about 20% ( actually more but keep it conservative) so need a base of $10M. Say average Mac Pro sells at $6799 that amounts to about 1500 units sold to break even. If Apple thinks they could sell 5 or 6K what would not make sense is not to. If can sell 10K then leaving tots of money on the table.

$4M the break even around 3000 units.

The Mac Pro is no where near a 1M units/yr sell rate , but it is also likely not in the 4 digit range either. ( probably in the 5 digits). If it is in the 10's of thousands range even if they lost half the sales to M-series it probably still would make sense.

3. Apple hasn't EOL'ed the upper Mini... still x86. Haven't EOL'd the "edu" 21.5" iMac. ( can see it listed over in the 27" iMac buy page. And that unit is super old. )

If Apple comes out with a "half sized" M-seiries model then they could probably claim both.
1. "transition accomplished" ( M-series models in each Mac product category ).

2. Still selling Mac Pro with top end bandwidth and discrete GPU cards.


So far Apple has done a whole lot of nothing in supporting non Apple GPUs on macOS for M-series. If that is there plan for the next year , or two< then a refreshed Mac Pro would be both more than viable and likely still have a substantive amount of buyers even if the M-series Mac Pro siphons off most of the lower end of the market.
Apple raised the starting price of the MP about 100% from the old MP 2010-2013. Some of the folks they "left out" are probably the bulk of those who will buy a M-series MP that is priced closer to $3-3.5K.



4. This also could be saving Apple the money to build something to compete in the full size enclosure space. They can make more narrowly scoped M-series for the "Half sized" Mac Pro that lacks the I/O bandwidth to provision that many lanes. Take 4 MBP 16" dies and lash them together. Core count is high but coupled to an iGPU ( which probably means coupled to soldered RAM. ) . Single GPU and soldered RAM is pretty unlikely to win over most of the Mac Pro 2009-2013 holdouts.


5. The final problem that Apple has is that the > 16 core models of the current line up are grossly uncompetitively priced. They all have the Intel $3+ K "> 1TB RAM tax" slapped on them. It is going to be even worse once Zen 3 powered Threadrippers arrive by end of the year. Intel just introduced Sapphire Rapids (which makes the W-3200 look even long in tooth). The W-3300 do not have the excesss high capacity RAM tax attached to them. Refreshing the line up will allow to get to Mac Pro that is just kind of "bad" in $/performance ; not comically bad ( which pretty much is now).


A W-3300 refresh would allow Apple to "kick the can" on trying to address the top end of the workstation market another 3-4 years from now ( so another year or two until have to kick in chip design resources ). That is probably fine with them because the primary focus is getting the Laptops and iMacs on solid ground. They can measure the "half size Mini " and "big chip" iMac updates and see how much is left of the old school Mac Pro crowd.
 

Grilled Cheese

macrumors member
Aug 5, 2021
66
63
1. It hasn't been EOLed. It is still for sale.

2. Thousands? Probably closer to several million for a limited update ( certification in several countries, marketing and sales overhead , contractor set up and management overhead , project management overhead , new firmware updates , board reflow, macOS base kernel andl library tweaks , compiler tweaks, etc. etc. )

Even if it something like $2M. Apple takes about 20% ( actually more but keep it conservative) so need a base of $10M. Say average Mac Pro sells at $6799 that amounts to about 1500 units sold to break even. If Apple thinks they could sell 5 or 6K what would not make sense is not to. If can sell 10K then leaving tots of money on the table.

$4M the break even around 3000 units.

The Mac Pro is no where near a 1M units/yr sell rate , but it is also likely not in the 4 digit range either. ( probably in the 5 digits). If it is in the 10's of thousands range even if they lost half the sales to M-series it probably still would make sense.

3. Apple hasn't EOL'ed the upper Mini... still x86. Haven't EOL'd the "edu" 21.5" iMac. ( can see it listed over in the 27" iMac buy page. And that unit is super old. )

If Apple comes out with a "half sized" M-seiries model then they could probably claim both.
1. "transition accomplished" ( M-series models in each Mac product category ).

2. Still selling Mac Pro with top end bandwidth and discrete GPU cards.


So far Apple has done a whole lot of nothing in supporting non Apple GPUs on macOS for M-series. If that is there plan for the next year , or two< then a refreshed Mac Pro would be both more than viable and likely still have a substantive amount of buyers even if the M-series Mac Pro siphons off most of the lower end of the market.
Apple raised the starting price of the MP about 100% from the old MP 2010-2013. Some of the folks they "left out" are probably the bulk of those who will buy a M-series MP that is priced closer to $3-3.5K.



4. This also could be saving Apple the money to build something to compete in the full size enclosure space. They can make more narrowly scoped M-series for the "Half sized" Mac Pro that lacks the I/O bandwidth to provision that many lanes. Take 4 MBP 16" dies and lash them together. Core count is high but coupled to an iGPU ( which probably means coupled to soldered RAM. ) . Single GPU and soldered RAM is pretty unlikely to win over most of the Mac Pro 2009-2013 holdouts.


5. The final problem that Apple has is that the > 16 core models of the current line up are grossly uncompetitively priced. They all have the Intel $3+ K "> 1TB RAM tax" slapped on them. It is going to be even worse once Zen 3 powered Threadrippers arrive by end of the year. Intel just introduced Sapphire Rapids (which makes the W-3200 look even long in tooth). The W-3300 do not have the excesss high capacity RAM tax attached to them. Refreshing the line up will allow to get to Mac Pro that is just kind of "bad" in $/performance ; not comically bad ( which pretty much is now).


A W-3300 refresh would allow Apple to "kick the can" on trying to address the top end of the workstation market another 3-4 years from now ( so another year or two until have to kick in chip design resources ). That is probably fine with them because the primary focus is getting the Laptops and iMacs on solid ground. They can measure the "half size Mini " and "big chip" iMac updates and see how much is left of the old school Mac Pro crowd.
When Segnerd wrote, “Why would you pour thousands of dollars into something that has already been EOLed?” I took this to mean “why would a consumer spend thousands to purchase a Mac Pro?” not “Why would Apple spend thousands updating the Mac Pro?”

Thanks for your reply though it was still interesting to read.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
When Segnerd wrote, “Why would you pour thousands of dollars into something that has already been EOLed?” I took this to mean “why would a consumer spend thousands to purchase a Mac Pro?” not “Why would Apple spend thousands updating the Mac Pro?”

Thanks for your reply though it was still interesting to read.

Apple hasn't discontinued the MP 2019 so it isn't EOLd.

IF this is some reference that the W-3200 is somehow EOL'ed because Intel introduced the W-3300 ... nope.


As of today everything on that page is in the "Launched" status. ( some of the older stuff that may be mistake )

There is a Intel PCN ( product change notice ) out against the W-3200 series? ... not that I can find.
Found a PCN on most of the W-2100 series ( and X-series from desktop that is same die ). That was a major contributing factor to iMac Pro dying off. ( didn't need to becaue there was a W-2200 there ... but GPU situation was a bit borked too. )

They (MP 2019 and W-3200 ) aren't particularly competitive at this point, but Apple/Intel is still selling them. That is substantively different than EOL.

Similarly, macOS on Intel isn't going away any time soon. So it isn't even close to EOL either. Some folks are mapping the PPC->x86 transition to some premature death to the x86 version this time. That isn't likely. Apple gets a much larger chunk of money from subscription services. They make money whether on x86 or not. Additionally, the installed base is also much larger now. ( about 100+ M macs in use). That inertia likely isn't going to die off as quick.
So someone plan on getting 10+ year of active support out of Apple for an updated Mac Pro ? No. But that isn't really new.

Thousands for a W-3200 means the user will be able to pick their own DRAM DiMMS and go up to 2-3 TB of capacity. The M-series isn't on track to deliver that. Apple's memory BTO pricing isn't open market pricing; so how much extra to have the memory soldered on ? ( similar with storage BTO . tracked into more "Apple only" pricing versus market rates over time. ).

x64 PCI-e v4 lanes versus probably substantially smaller fraction of that via M-series. ( enclosure being half sizes probably means loosing I/O bandwidth). Need 2-3 GPUs .. probably not going to be an option on the M-series path if Apple sticks to their current path.


Folks who buy the Mac Pro more so as a "status symbol" than for bandwidth performance ... yeah the M-series will have more "status". Bandwidth wise though it is the same "thousands more" as the Mac Pro has been the last 18 years or so. If need macOS and top end bandwidth then have to be "thousands tall" to go on that ride.
 

Grilled Cheese

macrumors member
Aug 5, 2021
66
63
Apple hasn't discontinued the MP 2019 so it isn't EOLd.
Absolutely true. There are still plenty of good reasons to get a 7,1.

Having said that, I can’t quite bring myself to pull the trigger on one to replace my 2013 Mac Pro. Gonna wait until the end of the year to see what Apple does next.
 

Mac3Duser

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2021
183
139
Apple won't do a special keynote for this, maybe just a surprise update, after an apple store update.
I hope it will be in September or October. With other macs, so after the second or third keynote.
The update of macbook pro seems to be very late.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Apple won't do a special keynote for this, maybe just a surprise update, after an apple store update.
I hope it will be in September or October. With other macs, so after the second or third keynote.
The update of macbook pro seems to be very late.

If there was a 2nd or 3rd keynote then pretty likely the Mac Pro would get tossed into one of those. ( although a 3rd isn't very likely at all )

A late October Keynote for Macs seems pretty likely. Even if Apple wasn't taking orders in Oct ( starting in Nov-Dec) they'd probably still want to do the introductions to get folks ready to order. If the MBP M-series SoC actually covers the same ground as the current MBP 16 GPU's ( up through 5600M with HBM2 RAM ) that would put their iGPU into a range that hasn't been seen before. I'd be surprised if they did not wrap a dog and pony show around that. That would be a key point they can pitch as to why there being zero support for 3rd party GPUs isn't a "bad" thing for macOS on M-series. "See, iGPUs can 'do it all' ".

Throwing in a new Mac Pro after that would help quell the pitchforks and torches of the add-in GPU, super fans. ""oh but there is still one refuge left for the add-in GPU folks. ". And if the M-series "half sized" Mac Pro is about 6 months away then a preview on that to explain how their will be two Mac Pro for a period of time they don't 100% overlap. But there would be some substantive overlap. IF Apple presents the differences folks can pick what they want.

Otherwise there will also be a "Osbourne effect" cloud over a new Intel Mac Pro. If it is different then it is not about to disappear soon next year. It would probably be better if Apple explained the path a bit in the Mac Pro context. As opposed to tossing it to the press release and letting the rumor/enthusiast Tech press sort out what/where things are going.

[ Might also help tone down the hyperbole about how the M-series is going to do everything for everybody. If the dog and pony is left to maximum M-series hype then it is likely to end up like the XDR intro which went too far. But hey, Jobs fingerprints on the company. on stage RDF turned on full blast is part of the culture. ]
 

jscipione

macrumors 6502
Mar 27, 2017
429
243
Is Apple "technically" selling the new GPU configurations of the MacPro7,1 as Mac Pro 2021? Similar to what it did with MP5,1 2010 and MP5,1 2012.

Mac year numbers correspond to new CPUs, so no, Apple is not referring to Mac Pro’s sold today as 2021 but as 2019.

The mid-2012 Mac Pro’s shipped with dual X5675’s (3.06ghz) while the mid-2010 Mac Pro’s shipped with X5670’s (2.93ghz.) thus that Mac got a new year designation.

If AMD is following Apple’s model year numbering system then their documentation does seem to indicate a Mac Pro model with an upgraded CPU is coming later this year.
 
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