Discussion: Suspicious of Apple. And yes, I hate MS.

[shokrone]

1

 

[gnasher729]

DO NOT POST UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO CONTRIBUTE INTELLIGENT AND INFORMED DISCUSSION. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN FLAMEWARS.

I've seen stuff in my day that could cause one to mistake "" for a religious symbol.

Ok, I'll write the most intelligent and informed that I can then: First, in your first two sentences, you are contradicting yourself. Second, if you mistake "" for a religious symbol, then maybe you should try to find help.

 

[shokrone]

As someone who is very precise in his use of language, I'm going to go ahead say that you can read what I wrote, or you can read what you want to see. I suggest you pay closer attention. I'm not going to reply to any more comments like yours.

 

[Maxiseller]

I agree with you.

I love the apple hardware - and even the software to some degree - but I love the looks and thats it.

My macbook pro is damaged from me dropping a rubber on it. Just a plain old pencil eraser put a dent in my macbook pro. I'm real careful with it, but has bumps and ticks all over it now. An IBM thinkpad would not have that problem. Then there's the rip-off of the iPhone. The tariffs that first came out in the UK were laughable and really peed me off as to the lengths apple go to to squeeze every dime out of the consumer...read. Paying for iPod touch software date. Their "accounting issue" is ridiculous as they don't charge for OS updates.

Then there is the shoddy workmanship recently reported. I've not had a single system in the last five years other than my original eMac that has worked fully out of warranty.

Then there's bootcamp. Why oh why should I get 40minutes of battery in windows, when I get 3 hours in Mac OSX? That's bad programming somewhere. Don't blame windows - it's the drivers telling the computer to work in 100% full-pelt mode.

The graphics drivers are at best mediocre.

The fact that my bootcamp partition suddenly developed a problem the day leopard came out was suspicious.

So yeh, I'm pretty fed up with the switching deal. I'll probably stay with macs, but they'd best get some improvements done to their hardware testing, quality and compatibility with windows.

 

[Odisey]

My macbook pro is damaged from me dropping a rubber on it.

Very funny!

And my PC has a near future date with a sledge hammer. It's the last tool in the box - should do the trick.

 

[wrldwzrd89]

Strange. I have had no problems at all with Boot Camp on my MacBook Pro running Leopard (10.5.2). I have not updated the drivers at all since Boot Camp for Leopard came out, and I've had no reason to - it Just Works (tm).

Just so everyone knows, I'm running Windows XP Pro in the Boot Camp partition. I refuse to use Windows Vista.

 

[ayeying]

The Boot Camp drivers are buggy, and in certain cases don't work at all (As reflected by my attempted Bluetooth endeavours). They have problems in 64-bit editions of Windows, too, whereas it has only been possible to install Windows on an Apple computer since 64-bit processors have been mainstream.

Up-to-date Boot Camp drivers are not available on the Apple website. Drivers for everything else Apple are, and every hardware manufacturer I've ever heard of offers their drivers for download. Apple instead instructs you to go find your Mac OS CD in order to update them. I have a laptop, and am not known to keep these things around while I'm traveling. For a company that prides itself on ease-of-use and simplicity, this is a convenient place to fall short.

Apple's advertisements being on a level of pseudo-smear campaign similar to those of Pepsi and (insert sleazy politician here) don't exactly make this all so hard to believe. On the bright side, whenever anyone says "Mac isn't compatible with programs X, Y and Z", they can point them to Boot Camp.

I'm going to switch to a Linux/Windows dual-boot setup as soon as I have enough free time for a backup/reformat session, and even then only use Windows for gaming. As a software engineering student, I'm incredibly disappointed in both Microsoft (for reasons that do not require enumeration) and Apple (for more reasons than many of you would like to hear, the most recent of which being the topic of this thread).

This is not a Microsoft versus Apple argument. I hate them both. But damn this Macbook Pro is a sexy piece of hardware--I'm a bit of a minimalist.

</3

I disagree on the drivers. Of all the boot camp installs I've done on Windows XP, Windows XP Pro x64, and several different versions of Windows Vista both x86 and x64, I have yet to run into a driver problem. Of course sometimes I need to search online for compatable drivers, but beyond that, everything runs fine and stable. battery life included. I get 3.5 hours on my air in XP, same as I would get in OSX if i was running the same amount of programs.

Upto date drivers are hard to find, especially for apple since they do not post them online. I agree on that statement but on an average user, if its not broken, don't try and fix it.

I personally find Linux easier to use if only if there was more programs to be run with it and stuff such as Wine to work properly. Whenever that happens, I'd probably switch to linux just for personal taste. Until then, OSX is something closer to move away from Windows Hell I'd have to deal with on a regular basis.

 

[SVT Amateur]

Wrong.

Your bluetooth attempts have nothing to do with Apple and have everything to do with Vista. I too have issues with using bluetooth with my BlackBerry while running Windows Vista Ultimate via Boot Camp but after doing some research online it is because of Windows Vista and it's limited support of Bluetooth profiles.

Boot Camp has all the drivers needed in order to make the Mac work as well as it can within Windows and while they may not update the drivers often (or ever, and I don't know if I blame them since Windows is the competition) you can find these drivers online or via Windows update. I've updated some drivers, like the wireless card driver, via Windows Update and have updated others, like the graphics card, manually by searching online the internet.

Your 64-bit driver argument again can not be blamed on Apple. Windows Vista 64-bit cannot use current 32-bit hardware drivers and instead has to rely on x64 subsets. I personally don't see Apple spending time and money writing 64-bit drivers for a competing operating system.

I personally think Apple is awesome for allowing a competing operating system to be installed on their device. I love their ad campaigns and do believe that the Mac OS is far superior to Windows, but yet Windows is required for access to my company's intranet so having Windows is a must for me, but with Boot Camp I'm able to use one device instead of two. I too have had zero issues with Windows Vista running on my Macbook Pro (except for the issue listed above which is a Vista issue).

 

[The Flashing Fi]

Your 64-bit driver argument again can not be blamed on Apple. Windows Vista 64-bit cannot use current 32-bit hardware drivers and instead has to rely on x64 subsets. I personally don't see Apple spending time and money writing 64-bit drivers for a competing operating system.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. It's an Apple computer. They are responsible for drivers, just as any other company, such as Dell, HP, ect. If Apple CHOOSES not to release 64-bit drivers, then they are to blamed, not MS. The drivers need to be compiled to work on a 64-bit OS. It's the same deal with Linux. 32-bit drivers don't work on a 64-bit version of Linux, not without being recompiled. MS is not at fault when it comes to drivers. 64-bit processors is nothing new, so I personally don't see any reason why all 64-bit Macbook Pros (the very first version had only Core Duo processors, which were only 32-bit) don't have 64-bit drivers freely available for them. To put it simply, it's BS. And for the 1.5 years Boot Camp was in beta, Apple should have had at least had beta drivers available for 64-bit Windows at the time of release of Leopard. Apple is the sole person to be blamed at not having 64-bit drivers available for all their computers that are capable of running a 64-bit OS.

More onto drivers. I think Apple half-arsed their drivers, at least their touchpad drivers. Every other manufacturer has the tap to click function in Windows, BUT Apple. C'mon. What type of crap is that?

Both companies are guilty of being money hungry. The only difference is that MS makes very little effort to try and hide it. And on these forums, people are more likely to look over any Leopard downfalls. On the release, many of the people stated that Leopard wasn't ready for release. I think it was fine, just as I thought and still think that Vista was ready for release. There is no way that you're going to release an OS that's going to be universally accepted by everyone as being "ready to release." Not everyone uses the computer for the same thing, not everyone uses the same programs.

I can think of a few issues that I've run into and that people have been complaining about of Leopard. Some serious, some not so serious. For instance, stacks was laggy before 10.5.2, the transitioning wallpaper is still laggy (worked great in Tiger), Airport issues, Time Machine issues, Upgrading from Tiger causing system instabilities and bugs, sometimes causing the person to reformat, keyboard firmware problems that took about 3-4 months to be addressed. Just check out the Mac OS X forum. If Mac OS X was as perfect as 90% of the people on here claim it is, then that forum would have less than 10 posts, and those 10 would be Leopard tips threads, a thread glorifying Leopard, a thread of people who just got Leopard, and a thread of people waiting to get it. But that's never going to happen. In a few million lines of code, someone is going to screw up.

It's the same exact thing with Windows. Windows of course has it's downfall, but on here, it's magnified by 10, because many people simply hate Windows because they're in the "other camp" or because they don't have experience with Windows. Many of the same sentiments I see here I see on Windows forums, except "Apple/Mac OS X" is replaced with "Windows/MS."

A lot of you like to think that Apple is SOOO much different than MS, but in actuality, they are very similar, and it's very funny to watch people piss and moan about the little differences. Both companies want to make as much money as possible. Both companies more or less hate each other. Both companies use marketing tactics that sicken me (yup, that's right, I think Apple's ads are pure propaganda, as well as MS). Not only that, but the "fanboys" of each camp are close to identical. They both bleed Apple/MS.

When someone posts a thread about MS, you always see that "lol MS" or you just KNOW that someone wants to post that (although, not specifically in this section, because that would be just stupid). It's the same thing on MS forums. When someone mentions Apple, someone always says "lol Apple."

Each of you guys think the OS you support is better. But they're not. Each OS has their downfalls, and their high points. MS has a greater market share, which in turn, more programs, cheaper computers, more support for hardware (when you buy a peripheral, you know you don't have to check if the box supports Windows, unless you just walked into an Apple Store), customizability. Some of this may not be important to you guys, but they are things that are important to other people... Well, a lot of people.

For Apple, driver compatability is a non-existent issue with Apple hardware, Unix core, in house design, less susceptible to viruses, lower market share (sounds like a downfall, but it's currently a plus because it's part of the reason why there are less viruses), arguably a better GUI (but that's an opinion really), and easy for computer illiterate people to get the hang of.

There is no clear cut winner like a lot of people think there is. They each have their pros and cons, and it's so hard to make a check list, because much of the stuff is subjective to the user.

 

[chrono1081]

Im confused...

The Boot Camp drivers are buggy, and in certain cases don't work at all (As reflected by my attempted Bluetooth endeavours). They have problems in 64-bit editions of Windows, too, whereas it has only been possible to install Windows on an Apple computer since 64-bit processors have been mainstream.
uld like to hear, the most recent of which being the topic of this thread).

This is not a Microsoft versus Apple argument. I hate them both. But damn this Macbook Pro is a sexy piece of hardware--I'm a bit of a minimalist.

</3

First off, bluetooth problems in vista are on EVERY machine whether its a mac or not. Trust me I get about 20 tickets a day of people whining about their bluetooth in their vista machines.

Second, if you hate MS and Apple then why use them? And why post in their forums? I hated vista so I sold my vista machine and got a mac, then got xp to dual boot on my mac cause I love xp and I love mac os. I have an eeePC which runs xp, and boots linux off and sd card cause I like linux too! Use what you like to use, it makes computing that much better.

 

[ayeying]

I'm going to have to disagree with you. It's an Apple computer. They are responsible for drivers, just as any other company, such as Dell, HP, ect. If Apple CHOOSES not to release 64-bit drivers, then they are to blamed, not MS. The drivers need to be compiled to work on a 64-bit OS. It's the same deal with Linux. 32-bit drivers don't work on a 64-bit version of Linux, not without being recompiled. MS is not at fault when it comes to drivers. 64-bit processors is nothing new, so I personally don't see any reason why all 64-bit Macbook Pros (the very first version had only Core Duo processors, which were only 32-bit) don't have 64-bit drivers freely available for them. To put it simply, it's BS. And for the 1.5 years Boot Camp was in beta, Apple should have had at least had beta drivers available for 64-bit Windows at the time of release of Leopard. Apple is the sole person to be blamed at not having 64-bit drivers available for all their computers that are capable of running a 64-bit OS.

More onto drivers. I think Apple half-arsed their drivers, at least their touchpad drivers. Every other manufacturer has the tap to click function in Windows, BUT Apple. C'mon. What type of crap is that?

Both companies are guilty of being money hungry. The only difference is that MS makes very little effort to try and hide it. And on these forums, people are more likely to look over any Leopard downfalls. On the release, many of the people stated that Leopard wasn't ready for release. I think it was fine, just as I thought and still think that Vista was ready for release. There is no way that you're going to release an OS that's going to be universally accepted by everyone as being "ready to release." Not everyone uses the computer for the same thing, not everyone uses the same programs.

I can think of a few issues that I've run into and that people have been complaining about of Leopard. Some serious, some not so serious. For instance, stacks was laggy before 10.5.2, the transitioning wallpaper is still laggy (worked great in Tiger), Airport issues, Time Machine issues, Upgrading from Tiger causing system instabilities and bugs, sometimes causing the person to reformat, keyboard firmware problems that took about 3-4 months to be addressed. Just check out the Mac OS X forum. If Mac OS X was as perfect as 90% of the people on here claim it is, then that forum would have less than 10 posts, and those 10 would be Leopard tips threads, a thread glorifying Leopard, a thread of people who just got Leopard, and a thread of people waiting to get it. But that's never going to happen. In a few million lines of code, someone is going to screw up.

It's the same exact thing with Windows. Windows of course has it's downfall, but on here, it's magnified by 10, because many people simply hate Windows because they're in the "other camp" or because they don't have experience with Windows. Many of the same sentiments I see here I see on Windows forums, except "Apple/Mac OS X" is replaced with "Windows/MS."

A lot of you like to think that Apple is SOOO much different than MS, but in actuality, they are very similar, and it's very funny to watch people piss and moan about the little differences. Both companies want to make as much money as possible. Both companies more or less hate each other. Both companies use marketing tactics that sicken me (yup, that's right, I think Apple's ads are pure propaganda, as well as MS). Not only that, but the "fanboys" of each camp are close to identical. They both bleed Apple/MS.

When someone posts a thread about MS, you always see that "lol MS" or you just KNOW that someone wants to post that (although, not specifically in this section, because that would be just stupid). It's the same thing on MS forums. When someone mentions Apple, someone always says "lol Apple."

Each of you guys think the OS you support is better. But they're not. Each OS has their downfalls, and their high points. MS has a greater market share, which in turn, more programs, cheaper computers, more support for hardware (when you buy a peripheral, you know you don't have to check if the box supports Windows, unless you just walked into an Apple Store), customizability. Some of this may not be important to you guys, but they are things that are important to other people... Well, a lot of people.

For Apple, driver compatability is a non-existent issue with Apple hardware, Unix core, in house design, less susceptible to viruses, lower market share (sounds like a downfall, but it's currently a plus because it's part of the reason why there are less viruses), arguably a better GUI (but that's an opinion really), and easy for computer illiterate people to get the hang of.

There is no clear cut winner like a lot of people think there is. They each have their pros and cons, and it's so hard to make a check list, because much of the stuff is subjective to the user.

Do remember, those companies don't create their own hardware. They use different brand hardwares such as Intel, BroadCom, nVidia, ATi, etc. And for apple, now it is the same thing. They're using Intel stuff, BroadCom, SigmaTel. It shouldn't be apple's fault if those companies can't produce good drivers for their products to work properly with the OSes. For apple, they can only be blamed if their drivers for something like a keyboard backlight fails.

And for Vista's bluetooth problems, I've found problems on several machines in Vista Bluetooth. I agree with others stating that I highly doubt the problem is because of the hardware or drivers, but rather the OS itself.

Again, use whatever you like. If you have to care what other people use and prefer, then you're no better then the fanboys.

 

[shokrone]

I'm sorry I didn't clarify, I'm using XP Pro and where my old desktop works fine with my Bluetooth devices in the same OS, it doesn't work on the Macbook Pro.

I also didn't mention the battery problem--I can get more than 40 minutes in Windows, but not nearly as much as in OS X, and definitely not under a processing load above playing music and desktop apps.

Do remember, those companies don't create their own hardware. They use different brand hardwares such as Intel, BroadCom, nVidia, ATi, etc. And for apple, now it is the same thing. They're using Intel stuff, BroadCom, SigmaTel. It shouldn't be apple's fault if those companies can't produce good drivers for their products to work properly with the OSes. For apple, they can only be blamed if their drivers for something like a keyboard backlight fails.

And for Vista's bluetooth problems, I've found problems on several machines in Vista Bluetooth. I agree with others stating that I highly doubt the problem is because of the hardware or drivers, but rather the OS itself.

Again, use whatever you like. If you have to care what other people use and prefer, then you're no better then the fanboys.

It is true that the parts inside the computer come from different manufacturers, but they are as responsible as Dell, HP and every other major player in the personal computing sector is to distribute their own drivers for any editions they might have made. I've attempted to run the drivers intended solely for the individual part as if I'd installed it in a desktop PC and they don't always work, for that reason. Were I to build a custom computer out of the same components with the Boot Camp drivers, what do you think would happen? Unless it's one of the small-ish nameless companies selling webcams, Bluetooth dongles and USB peripherals, every hardware manufacturer ensures its drivers are stable on all supported platforms.

In short, Apple is still responsible for the entirety of Boot Camp and how it works on their machines. They are also entirely responsible for the stability of any drivers they release, and there's no good reason not to offer the most up-to-date drivers for download.

I definitely don't care what other people use; I'm not a fanboy. I appreciate discussion and that there are others who feel as screwed by both sides as I do.

(Flashing Fi, I kind of want to give you a hug.)

 

[The Flashing Fi]

It is true that the parts inside the computer come from different manufacturers, but they are as responsible as Dell, HP and every other major player in the personal computing sector is to distribute their own drivers for any editions they might have made. I've attempted to run the drivers intended solely for the individual part as if I'd installed it in a desktop PC and they don't always work, for that reason. Were I to build a custom computer out of the same components with the Boot Camp drivers, what do you think would happen? Unless it's one of the small-ish nameless companies selling webcams, Bluetooth dongles and USB peripherals, every hardware manufacturer ensures its drivers are stable on all supported platforms.

I was going to write something very similar to that. Apple designs the computers. That means they go out to companies like Intel, Samsung, LG, ect, and pay for their parts to use in their computers. So when an Apple product has a defect, the burden of responsibility lies on Apple, since they CHOOSE to use those companies products in their computers. There are alternatives. They could use AMD processors, Nvidia/ATi chipsets, other LCD manufacturers, ect.

 

[Teej guy]

The fact that Apple hasn't updated any of their Bootcamp drivers since the 2.0 release is absolutely ridiculous.

We still don't have trackpad click even though things like trackpad scrolling and two fingers for right click work. Whenever I access CD or DVD media, my sound stutters (that's for on-board...with my M-Audio Firewire 410, use the CD drive and the sound completely gives up).

Battery life is another issue, as is having wireless enabled causing my Firewire 410 to stutter.

nVidia has since updated their graphics drivers but Apple hasn't released newer versions compatible with their hardware.

It's despicable that Apple would advertise Boot Camp as a major feature of Leopard, causing many people (including myself) to buy Apple hardware, and then turn around and basically completely drop support for it.