EgyptAir flight MS804 may have been brought down by overheating phone chain reaction

[mi7chy]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36349096

For a fire, that's a very short period of time. For an explosive event, like a bomb, that's a very long period of time

It's got me and many other experts scratching their heads. There is an answer, but it's not clear yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_804
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/faulty-pho...yptair-flight-ms804-investigators-say-1600963

On 13 January 2017, French authorities announced that they believe that the plane may have been brought down by an overheating phone battery which caused a fire in the cockpit, noting parallels between the position of where the co-pilot had stowed his iPad and iPhone 6S and data which suggested an accidental fire on the right-hand side of the flight deck, which is located next to the co-pilot.

Placement of phone, tablet, alcohol based parfum and aerosol accelerant in cockpit from departing Charles Degaulle airport CCTV
http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/crash-egyptair-les-mysteres-du-cockpit-13-01-2017-6560793.php

Warnings from ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) air to ground digital datalink.

00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R(ight) WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R(ight) SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE (optical sensor)
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE (optical sensor)
00:28Z 561100 R(ight) FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT (second flight control unit)
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT (#3 spoiler/elevator computer for air brake spoilers 1 & 2 )
Then no further ACARS messages were received.

FCU (flight control unit) diagram

Air brake spoiler numbering

Last moments flight timeline

According to ATS-B broadcasts it appears to be on autopilot maintaining 37,000 ft up to last broadcast at 00:30Z

Greece's Minister of Defense reported: "What we know for now from the air image of the National Operational Centre is that at 03:37L (00:37Z) the aircraft located 10-15 miles off the borders within the Egyptian air space, in Cairo FIR, at a height of 37,000 feet, took a turn of 90o to the left and then a 360o turn to the right falling from 37,000 feet to 15,000 feet. The image that we had was lost when it reached about 10,000 feet.

http://news.sky.com/story/egyptair-crash-data-shows-smoke-near-cockpit-10289755

However, the 90 degrees turn left is required procedure to get off the airway for an emergency descent (in order to not descend into another aircraft).

The 360 degrees turn, as described by the Greek Defence Minister, is a good pilot manoeuvre to increase drag and thus accelerate the descent.

In case of a catastrophic fire pilots will try to ditch the aircraft (if over water), and it would appear plausible that this is what happened.

FACTS

Fire was reported on the Voice Cockpit Recorder and ACARS sensors reported spreading fire damage to flight instrumentation along with smoke spreading to other compartments.

We know that phone explosion causes extensive smoke and sometimes localized fire that burns itself out but fire doesn't spread.

On the other hand, liquid alcohol based accelerant from fragrance and aerosols is smokeless but spreads rapidly and can defy normal fires rapidly spreading downwards into other compartments.

Large 5000+ mAh tablet batteries are incendiary bombs.

Challenges that the crew had to deal with:

- cockpit fire

- loss of internal cockpit visibility from smoke

- loss of external visibility from window de-icing equipment failure at high altitude

- loss of some flight controls

- loss of air speed brake for rapid emergency descent that could lead to break up of aircraft from exceeding design specifications

- loss of fly-by-wire capability that protects airplane from pilot errors that exceed design specifications

- apparently loss of communication equipment

- limited ~13 minute oxygen supply before succumbing to hypoxia above 10,000 ft (flight was originally at 37,000 ft, normal descent is 2,000 ft/min while maximum emergency descent is 10,000 ft/min assuming functional air speed brakes and fly-by-wire protection)

 

[Apple 26.2]

Scary stuff, but hey... if I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go... I'm not afraid of that.

 

[mi7chy]

An overheating phone by itself on board an airliner has been shown to be manageable but the combined chain reaction effect in close proxmity with four flammable fragrance bottles, two aerosols plus a tablet with 5,124 mAh battery could be overwhelming. It's unfortunate that it seems nothing was learned from recent recalls and incidents. The FAA need to be stricter with safe handling on flights treating all lithium battery the same, requiring certified LiPo bag per device and separation from flammable accelerants especially in critical areas like the cockpit as was discussed here last year.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/ideas-for-lithium-battery-safety.1992697/

 

[Paul Dawkins]

An overheating phone by itself on board an airliner has been shown to be manageable but the combined chain reaction effect with four flammable fragrance bottles, two aerosols plus a tablet with 5,124 mAh battery could be overwhelming. It's unfortunate that it seems nothing was learned from recent recalls and incidents. The FAA need to be stricter with safe handling on flights treating all lithium battery the same, requiring certified LiPo bag per device and separation from flammable accelerants especially in critical areas like the cockpit.

What do you expect? Ban on batteries of any kind, shape or form on aeroplanes?

 

[Tsepz]

Are you telling me this plane was brought down by an Apple iPad and Apple iPhone? Wow! That is quite heavy.

 

[flyinmac]

What do you expect? Ban on batteries of any kind, shape or form on aeroplanes?

Perhaps it's time for the industry to move on to new technology and abandon lithium ion technology.

We've had all types of rechargeable batteries for electronic devices: lead-acid, NiCad, NiMH, Lithium Ion, etc....

Each had their faults and weaknesses. As well as their positive aspects.

Perhaps it's time for us to move beyond traditional thinking, and get a little more inspired creative thinking applied to the problem.

We are a commercialized world. And that presents power struggles as dominant companies seek to retain their cash flow by stubbornly sticking to old ideas and fighting against better ideas that would unseat them from their throne.

Consider the idea that we had vehicles powered by alternative means from the beginning. Yet here we sit with big oil slowing transition away from fossil fuels. Clearly options are there, but gasoline isn't going away anytime soon. Thanks to the powers that be, who get fat on oil money.

Now, turn back to electronics. While I don't have all the answers, I do know that there are some amazing ideas being explored in options for electrical power. But, again, we have an entrenched industry. What if we opened up and invited all to present their craziest and wildest ideas and worked to revolutionize the world instead of working to keep a few companies rich?

We can extract power from vegetables. And have been able to do so for as long as I can remember. It's ridiculously simple.

And no I'm not saying we should hook up a potato to the iPhone. But I'm saying we have all these brilliant scientific minds out there. And if a 6 year old can power a lightbulb from a potato or lemon, or whatever.... then surely these brilliant scientists could unite to design something which provides the power we need, without exploding.

 

[Paul Dawkins]

Perhaps it's time for the industry to move on to new technology and abandon lithium ion technology.

We've had all types of rechargeable batteries for electronic devices: lead-acid, NiCad, NiMH, Lithium Ion, etc....

Each had their faults and weaknesses. As well as their positive aspects.

Perhaps it's time for us to move beyond traditional thinking, and get a little more inspired creative thinking applied to the problem.

We are a commercialized world. And that presents power struggles as dominant companies seek to retain their cash flow by stubbornly sticking to old ideas and fighting against better ideas that would unseat them from their throne.

Consider the idea that we had vehicles powered by alternative means from the beginning. Yet here we sit with big oil slowing transition away from fossil fuels. Clearly options are there, but gasoline isn't going away anytime soon. Thanks to the powers that be, who get fat on oil money.

Now, turn back to electronics. While I don't have all the answers, I do know that there are some amazing ideas being explored in options for electrical power. But, again, we have an entrenched industry. What if we opened up and invited all to present their craziest and wildest ideas and worked to revolutionize the world instead of working to keep a few companies rich?

We can extract power from vegetables. And have been able to do so for as long as I can remember. It's ridiculously simple.

And no I'm not saying we should hook up a potato to the iPhone. But I'm saying we have all these brilliant scientific minds out there. And if a 6 year old can power a lightbulb from a potato or lemon, or whatever.... then surely these brilliant scientists could unite to design something which provides the power we need, without exploring.

It's time for many things, but there is that small problem of not having that new technology to replace with.

 

[FFR]

Talk about conspiracy theories , good job op.

Except the op forgot to post this little bit of information:

"It is understood that the information provided by the Le Parisien source has not been independently verified. While investigators may have at one point probed whether an overheating mobile device started the fire, this line of inquiry has not been advanced."

The article also mentions the Samsung galaxy note 7.

"Smartphones containing lithium-ion batteries have been known to explode when exposed to excessive heat or pressure. Samsung was forced to recall its Galaxy Note 7 last year due to widespread reports of the handset catching fire, caused by stressed batteries. This led to a number of airlines banning the phone from flights."


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/faulty-pho...yptair-flight-ms804-investigators-say-1600963

 

[C DM]

More fake news?

 

[Suckfest 9001]

Yay, pure conjecture being taken as fact by brand loyalists!

Nothing says "I'm comfortable and secure in my purchase decisions" like actively posting threads badmouthing the other side, right?

 

[macfacts]

...
The article also mentions the Samsung galaxy note 7.

...

It mentions the Note 7 as bait click. Note 7 was no where near that plane and never killed anyone.

 

[FFR]

Does it?
Since it was never verified... the other co pilot could have had a Samsung phone and tablet...

"Sleeping man wakened by heat and flames from Samsung S5 phone"

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/samsung-s5-exploding-1.3940902

Let's be honest Samsung galaxy phones seem to be exploding left right and center .

 

[Paul Dawkins]

It mentions the Note 7 as bait click. Note 7 was no where near that plane and never killed anyone.

Allegedly.

 

[kdarling]

Does it?
Since it was never verified... the other co pilot could have had a Samsung phone and tablet...

Not sure why you brought that up.

<-- Heck, the pilot could've had ten Note 7s baking in a microwave.

But it didn't matter, since the fire supposedly started over on the copilot's iDevice side --->

 

[Klyster]

Doesn't anyone else find it strange that the Note 7's haven't had a fire for a while? It's not like there isn't any in the wild still..

 

[Paul Dawkins]

Doesn't anyone else find it strange that the Note 7's haven't had a fire for a while? It's not like there isn't any in the wild still..

Not strange.

 

[Klyster]

Not strange.

Theres 200,000 plus still in the wild, after the initial hoohar, there doesn't seem to be any more immolations.
I find it kinda strange, the press would be all over it, if one caught fire and if it was reported of course.

 

[Paul Dawkins]

Theres 200,000 plus still in the wild, after the initial hoohar, there doesn't seem to be any more immolations.
I find it kinda strange, the press would be all over it, if one caught fire and if it was reported of course.

You have no idea how many are there this very second and how many are being used. Obviously they all are not going to burst in flames, that wasn't ever a possibility.

 

[Klyster]

Yeah true, the last I heard, until I looked now, was 200k + Note 7's being held onto.

Still, the fires seemed to stop happening pretty abruptly and with Verizon saying they still have thousands of users still using Note 7's, it's easy to assume there would be many thousands more globally.
It's not like they aren't being used.

 

[Paul Dawkins]

Yeah true, the last I heard, until I looked now, was 200k + Note 7's being held onto.

Still, the fires seemed to stop happening pretty abruptly and with Verizon saying they still have thousands of users still using Note 7's, it's easy to assume there would be many thousands more globally.
It's not like they aren't being used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

 

[Klyster]

I don't get it, I'm not arguing, what point are you trying to make?
[doublepost=1484902509][/doublepost]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

 

[Paul Dawkins]

I don't get it, I'm not arguing, what point are you trying to make?
[doublepost=1484902509][/doublepost]

I thought it will be useful in the future.

 

[Klyster]

I thought it will be useful in the future.

Thanks, enjoy it up there