Feedback welcome on network upgrades.

[MacinMan]

Hey all, I'll do my best to keep this question / discussion quick and to the point.

After Apple stopped supporting the Airport extreme, I was in need of a new router, and with trial and error settled on the Asus RT-AX86U.
With that said, being the Airport Extreme is a 3x3 router (6th generation). I haven't paid much attention to 4x4, 2x2, etc since the airport always just worked.

Recently I wanted to upgrade my Ethernet, so supported devices can take full advantage of bandwidth for 1G, and beyond internet plans.
So, while the Asus RT-AX86U is still a solid router, it's pretty much capped at 1G, unless there are 160 mhz wifi devices connected and the single 2.5G port is used, and that still doesn't help the wired network expand.

So, fast forward and I got the Asus BE92U, and it worked well, with some issues out of the box that were able to be worked around, until about 6, or 7 months later when I ran into issues that I couldn't fix, with the latest firmware, and a hard factory reset. Being this particular model was known to have lots of ongoing issues widespread, I got rid of it, and decided on the TP-Link BE9300, which has been rock solid.

Here is a list of my devices regularly in use on my network, by connection type:

4X amazon Echo devices connected to 2.4GHz (80211n)
12 Wiz bulbs connected to an iOT network - 2.4GHz (80211g/n)
1 Google Nest Audio speaker connected to 5GHz (80211ac)
iPhone 15 Pro Max can use either 5, or 6GHz WiFi 6E compatible.
My late 2015, 27" iMac connected with a UGREEN USB 2.5 Ethernet adapter to use instead of the built in 1G port.
Apple TV 4X (3rd Gen), Google TV 4K Streamer, Roku, Ultra, and NVIDIA Shield TV Pro (2019) all connected to Gigabit Ethernet except the ROKU, which is 10/100 Ethernet, and my Sony TV from 2016, is also on Ethernet instead of WiFi for stability, and it's still connected to take advantage of the google compatible voice commands, as well as Alexa.

End of network setup list

With that said, a lot of people rave about having to have a 4x4 router, but since I've mainly used the airport until it was discontinued, and the RT-AX86U is a 4x4 5GHZ, and 3x3 2.4GHz router, I haven't noticed a bit of difference in performance for my setup.

The Asus BE82U, and TP-Link are both 2x2 WiFi 7 routers, and I never saw any performance differences in daily use, other than the bugs the BE92U had.

My apartment is a 1 bedroom, and about 625 sqft, if I remember correctly.

With this setup, is there any reason to still prefer a 4x4 router over a 2x2 since all high demand devices are on Ethernet, and most of the wireless are low data devices?

One more note, I don't need WiFi 7 currently, since my newest device, the iPhone is 6E, and I only needed the Ethernet upgrade, so buying a WiFi 7 router that was tri-band seemed to be the easiest all around solution to meet current needs, and anything that may come up going forward.

Also to add, my internet connection coming in is 1gigabit, and the 2.5 ports have removed the 940 Mbps cap and given me about 1.2 Gbps down on supported devices.

Thanks for any help, just trying to stay focused on my setup, and have what I need without over paying for things I don't need such as 2x2 vs 4x4, etc. The other thing I've considered is, the higher up routers have 10G ports, which is something I won't need for a long time, or ever, since I don't have any 10G service available here, and I currently don't do any really heavy transfers over the network currently. So, the 2.5Gbps upgrade seems to be the most reasonable right now.

 

[foggygray]

I’ve honestly never even paid attention to 2x2 or 4x4 for my wireless access points. I believe all Macs are 2x2 though and maybe there’d be some benefits with multiple devices connected to a 4x4 router but I’m not too sure.

My wireless is 4x4 on all bands (2.4, 5, and 6) and I’m not sure I’ve even noticed a difference.

 

[eyoungren]

My home network is Gigabit Ethernet. I'm not sure about any of this 1G, 4x4, 2x2 stuff as most of the devices in my home are connected to the router via a 24-port Gigabit switch. Thats's connected to the ASUS RT-AC3200, which is a Gig-E router with 2.5 and 5Ghz WiFi. I own my own cable modem.

My ISP is cable and I pay for their Gig-E speed tier, with extra money for unlimited data. I work from home.

There are maybe two or three Macs in the house with 10GB speed capability. My ISP doesn't have those speeds. Right now they top out at 2.5GB. If I am going to increase speeds, I will need to upgrade Macs, router and switch. An expensive proposition. My primary desktop Mac is a 2009 MacPro - which is limited to 1GB ethernet port speeds I believe.

Work…which uses the same ISP I do, but with a business account is a further restriction. I connect to work through a VPN and the top speed here is Fast Ethernet. So, all the upgrading, paying my ISP for 2.5GB speeds will only benefit me. It won't increase the work VPN speeds.

Since I'm not doing anything on my own at home that demands I double my Gig-E network or more, I see no sense in spending anything to upgrade right now.

Note: Lots of people like WiFi for some reason. Convenience probably. But, it's the weak link in my home, being the slowest speed offering. No one can achieve the Gig-E speeds I pay my ISP for using the WiFi. We do have a lot of iDevices that ride the WiFi but Ethernet is always faster. Note 2: I routinely get 1.2 to 1.3GB speeds, so again, I really see no need to upgrade right now.

 

[MacinMan]

Thanks guys , and @eyoungren I agree with you, and I own my own modem as well right now I'm stuck with Cox as my provider, but got an Arris S33 for my own modem. I always hardwire where possible and only use wireless for devices with no other option. In terms of upgrading from a 1G port to the 2.5G is mainly to remove the cap to get the full speeds provisioned. I know that 940 Mbps is in spec for a 1G rated port, however, knowing that a 2.5 will give the full gig and up to 2.5G (If I ever needed an internet plan that fast). I felt in the long term, I'd be better spending the money I pay for gigabit with, to get the full uncapped speeds vs settling for 940 and missing out on some bandwidth for supported devices. Not a big deal, I know but still made sense.

Edit: Wanted to add, sometimes it's tough sifting through all the hype of users being hung up on the latest and gredatest vs the practically of right now. That's why I chose to only get a new router for the upgraded port speeds, first, and WiFi standards second. Don't have any WiFi 7 devices yet, but my phone is 6E, and my next phone will be 7, so made since to skip WiFi 6E Router as to not have to buy again too soon.

 

[foggygray]

I really only went with a 6GHz wireless access point because I live in an apartment complex with a crowded 5GHz band that wouldn’t give me my full provisioned speed even with 800Mbps internet. I do have 4 devices that can connect to WiFi 6E and no WiFi 7 devices but I went with a WiFi 7 capable access point just because i was upgrading anyway.

 

[MacinMan]

I really only went with a 6GHz wireless access point because I live in an apartment complex with a crowded 5GHz band that wouldn’t give me my full provisioned speed even with 800Mbps internet. I do have 4 devices that can connect to WiFi 6E and no WiFi 7 devices but I went with a WiFi 7 capable access point just because i was upgrading anyway.

It's pretty populated here as well with access point, and since the apartment is small 6Ghz was worth a test in this environment since the iPhone supports it. Usually 5Ghz 160 MHz, and 6 GHz delivery about the same for me, and the 6G keeps good signal through the whole apartment, even through the wall into the bedroom, but I keep the bedroom door open, so that helps, and the router is centrally placed (as much as possible in the living room.

 

[eyoungren]

Thanks guys , and @eyoungren I agree with you, and I own my own modem as well right now I'm stuck with Cox as my provider, but got an Arris S33 for my own modem. I always hardwire where possible and only use wireless for devices with no other option. In terms of upgrading from a 1G port to the 2.5G is mainly to remove the cap to get the full speeds provisioned. I know that 940 Mbps is in spec for a 1G rated port, however, knowing that a 2.5 will give the full gig and up to 2.5G (If I ever needed an internet plan that fast). I felt in the long term, I'd be better spending the money I pay for gigabit with, to get the full uncapped speeds vs settling for 940 and missing out on some bandwidth for supported devices. Not a big deal, I know but still made sense.

Edit: Wanted to add, sometimes it's tough sifting through all the hype of users being hung up on the latest and gredatest vs the practically of right now. That's why I chose to only get a new router for the upgraded port speeds, first, and WiFi standards second. Don't have any WiFi 7 devices yet, but my phone is 6E, and my next phone will be 7, so made since to skip WiFi 6E Router as to not have to buy again too soon.

Maybe you should talk to Cox. My ISP is also Cox. And as I mentioned, I get 1.2 to 1.3GB speeds. Sometimes it will go as low as 850, but that's usually when all four people in the house are hitting the network fairly hard. Everything ends up in one spot - the router.

Also, don't trust just to speedtest.net or it's app, or to Cox's own speed test. I typically use fast.com to test as it's fairly light.



Do I always get the speeds I mention? No, but it's routinely close enough for me.

EDIT: There's a significant difference in higher speed tiers in my area with Cox. I'm not giving them any more money just to get what I should be getting right now (because I pay them for it). I'm also NOT giving them more money to NOT get the speeds I'd then be paying for because I don't have any devices that can take advantage of that additional speed.

Totally understand your perspective though.

 

[MacinMan]

Maybe you should talk to Cox. My ISP is also Cox. And as I mentioned, I get 1.2 to 1.3GB speeds. Sometimes it will go as low as 850, but that's usually when all four people in the house are hitting the network fairly hard.

Also, don't trust just to speedtest.net or it's app, or to Cox's own speed test. I typically use fast.com to test as it's fairly light.

View attachment 2517437

Do I always get the speeds I mention? No, but it's routinely close enough for me.

These are the average range of speeds I get now, when they aren't having network issues, and I stabilized things here.
This was used with the Speedtest app for macOS, and I have also used the fast.com site.

Speedtest app:

Fast.com test:

 

[eyoungren]

These are the average range of speeds I get now, when they aren't having network issues, and I stabilized things here.
This was used with the Speedtest app for macOS, and I have also used the fast.com site.

Speedtest app:
View attachment 2517438
Fast.com test:
View attachment 2517439

I would just comment that I'm getting ready for work (should be clocking in now), so the above speed test I show is off my work M2 MBP. It's two hops from the router. It connects to an ethernet port in my Airport Extreme router (slaved to my main router), which is connected to my switch, which then goes into my main router. So, there's some lag here.

 

[MacinMan]

I would just comment that I'm getting ready for work (should be clocking in now), so the above speed test I show is off my work M2 MBP. It's two hops from the router. It connects to an ethernet port in my Airport Extreme router (slaved to my main router), which is connected to my switch, which then goes into my main router. So, there's some lag here.

In my setup, I'm not even using the Airport anymore, so I have the TP-Link BE9300 directly connected to the 2.5Gbps port on the Arris S33, the iMac is connected to 2.5G LAN port on the router, and using the 2.5 adapter vs built in Ethernet, and then I have a long cable run into the bedroom that goes around the living room baseboards, under a cable cover, through the door frame where there hinges are so there is clearance there, to a Gigabit switch by Netgear that the TV and devices connect to. It's a ProSafe 8 Port switch that'
s been the only stable Neger product I've owned, it's just worked quietly and reliably for quite a few years.

P.S. I don't usually watch WWDC anymore, as a company. Apple isn't focused on the things that were important to me growing up, and made them a valuable company to me. However, I still use their products for now. I've heard rumors that they may revive the airport lineup at WWDC, so will be interest to go through the recaps and see.

 

[eyoungren]

In my setup, I'm not even using the Airport anymore, so I have the TP-Link BE9300 directly connected to the 2.5Gbps port on the Arris S33, the iMac is connected to 2.5G LAN port on the router, and using the 2.5 adapter vs built in Ethernet, and then I have a long cable run into the bedroom that goes around the living room baseboards, under a cable cover, through the door frame where there hinges are so there is clearance there, to a Gigabit switch by Netgear that the TV and devices connect to. It's a ProSafe 8 Port switch that'
s been the only stable Neger product I've owned, it's just worked quietly and reliably for quite a few years.

P.S. I don't usually watch WWDC anymore, as a company. Apple isn't focused on the things that were important to me growing up, and made them a valuable company to me. However, I still use their products for now. I've heard rumors that they may revive the airport lineup at WWDC, so will be interest to go through the recaps and see.

This is the M2 work Mac AFTER connecting to the VPN.



Pretty much (IMO) no point in getting high speed equipment when the speed tier that work uses with the same ISP as me (Cox) is going to give me this.

I could have the fastest speed in the world, the envy of every person on the planet, but I'm still going to get limited by the work speed tier.

 

[MacinMan]

This is the M2 work Mac AFTER connecting to the VPN.

View attachment 2517444

Pretty much (IMO) no point in getting high speed equipment when the speed tier that work uses with the same ISP as me (Cox) is going to give me this.

I could have the fastest speed in the world, the envy of every person on the planet, but I'm still going to get limited by the work speed tier.

Personally, I don't use VPNs, people who I know and who have had experience have told me it's not worth it for someone in my case, and could actually potentially introduce problems that aren't there by just not using one. I know you need yours for work, so I'm only referring to personal home use here, where it's just me who has access to things, and the Geo location stuff doesn't matter to me.

By the way, for everyday use, I'm fine with Cox's 500 /50 plan, and that's what I used while I was in the process of troubleshooting why gigabit wasn't stable and holding a connection. However, I have gone back to gigabit, mainly for the additional upload speed. Cox does have the 2 Gig plan, which does work with my setup, and I get the full 2G on the mac, but the price cable charges for high speed which such a low upload in comparison, isn't worth it. !000 down and 100 up, or 500 down and 50 up reasonable, if it's your only option, but 2000 down, and only 100 up, not really a good deal. Fiber is usually a better deal, but don't have access to it here yet, and when I do I'll probably do 500 up and down, or maybe 1gig up and down, 2G if it's a good deal, but can't see needing any more than that for a long time.

 

[foggygray]

Wow Comcast/Xfinity is awful in comparison to Cox. Their Gigabit plan is 1100 down and 40 up. I don’t think any of their plans get close to 100 up. My 800 plan only offers 35 up.

 

[MacinMan]

Wow Comcast/Xfinity is awful in comparison to Cox. Their Gigabit plan is 1100 down and 40 up. I don’t think any of their plans get close to 100 up. My 800 plan only offers 35 up.

you need a high mid split modem such as the CM3000, S34, or Coda56 to get the next gen speeds from Xfinity. look at their supported modems list, and if you have a supported modem, you might need a tech.

 

[eyoungren]

Personally, I don't use VPNs, people who I know and who have had experience have told me it's not worth it for someone in my case, and could actually potentially introduce problems that aren't there by just not using one. I know you need yours for work, so I'm only referring to personal home use here, where it's just me who has access to things, and the Geo location stuff doesn't matter to me.

If I didn't have to use it, I would not. The alternative is getting back into the car and driving to work every day. For several reasons unrelated to not actually wanting to drive down there, that isn't going to happen any time soon. So, I'm stuck with the VPN.

My work M2 though has a bad habit of dropping the the SMB connection (I connect to the work NAS via SMB once on the VPN) whenever saving Photoshop files, QuarkXPress files or trying to copy files to the NAS. Using AFP, which is more stable, isn't helpful because it tends to only copy one file at a time and then errors.

Once a day I fight with the Mac to get it to work. Once I can get it to start saving PS files without hassle, then things go fairly smooth for the rest of the day. But there is always that initial fight.

Of course, the IT people that work uses periodically don't see anything wrong. But this started when the NAS drives bombed in late 2023 and they got hired to replace them and restore our data. Hasn't worked properly since.

Although the funny thing is that my other work issued MBP, a 2015 Mac running High Sierra, tends to be more stable.

 

[MacinMan]

If I didn't have to use it, I would not. The alternative is getting back into the car and driving to work every day. For several reasons unrelated to not actually wanting to drive down there, that isn't going to happen any time soon. So, I'm stuck with the VPN.

My work M2 though has a bad habit of dropping the the SMB connection (I connect to the work NAS via SMB once on the VPN) whenever saving Photoshop files, QuarkXPress files or trying to copy files to the NAS. Using AFP, which is more stable, isn't helpful because it tends to only copy one file at a time and then errors.

Once a day I fight with the Mac to get it to work. Once I can get it to start saving PS files without hassle, then things go fairly smooth for the rest of the day. But there is always that initial fight.

Of course, the IT people that work uses periodically don't see anything wrong. But this started when the NAS drives bombed in late 2023 and they got hired to replace them and restore our data. Hasn't worked properly since.

Although the funny thing is that my other work issued MBP, a 2015 Mac running High Sierra, tends to be more stable.

I'm holding onto my late 2015, 27" 5K iMac because there is no M series version, and I do other things that need the intel platform, making an M series mam a questionable upgrade.

 

[eyoungren]

@MacinMan

I finally got around to this after work. This is my 2009 Mac Pro…



I hit 2.1GB down at one point, but you'll have to take my word for it.

 

[MacinMan]

@MacinMan

I finally got around to this after work. This is my 2009 Mac Pro…

View attachment 2518099

I hit 2.1GB down at one point, but you'll have to take my word for it.

When I was testing the 2G plan last year, I got a little over 3Gbps on fast.com a couple times.

 

[foggygray]

you need a high mid split modem such as the CM3000, S34, or Coda56 to get the next gen speeds from Xfinity. look at their supported modems list, and if you have a supported modem, you might need a tech.

That’s their advertised plans on the website. I have an S33 for my modem and gets me the speeds as advertised from Xfinity.

 

[MacinMan]

That’s their advertised plans on the website. I have an S33 for my modem and gets me the speeds as advertised from Xfinity.

oh, the 1gig plan doesn't have the 200 Mbps upload? Is it the 2G plan only? I don't have Comcast, so I don't follow them. I do know a lot of people use them though.

 

[foggygray]

oh, the 1gig plan doesn't have the 200 Mbps upload? Is it the 2G plan only? I don't have Comcast, so I don't follow them. I do know a lot of people use them though.

The best they offer for my location is 1300/40 which is awful.

 

[MacinMan]

The best they offer for my location is 1300/40 which is awful.

Sounds like you'll be jumping to fiber as soon as possible.

 

[MacinMan]

I just realized that the TP-Link router model I got, though Tri-Band, doesn't support WiFi 7 on 2.4 GHz. Just 5, and 6. 2.4 on this model goes up to WiFi 6. I'm not sure if it's worth going through the hassle of returning the router, or not. Everything works, and currently I don't have any WiFi 7 devices, and if I did, I'd most likely connect them to a single SSID, either 5, or 6 GHz. When 160Mhz is active, I get my full internet speed on a single band, so for me, MLO seems pointless anyway. Just wondering if I should still return it, and get one with full support, or maybe wait until I actually need WiFi 7 support, maybe by that time there will be better, and more mature products.
As mentioned, mainly just needed the Ethernet upgrade for now, and the iPhone 15 Pro Max, can use the 6GHz band, so those two upgrades apply to current needs / devices.

 

[ChrisA]

It seems that you are only using the local network for internet access. The bottleneck is likely both (1) the speed of your internet service and, (2) the speed of the servers you access.

With the above assumptions, you just don't need/can't use a higher performance local. network. My answer would be different if you have local services (NAS with many services enabled) on your net and more local users.

Obviously, a faster local WiFi will not let you watch a 10-minute YouTube cat video in 5 minutes. You have to measure and observe where the choke points are, likely these are not in your apartment.

ASUS is a very good brand because, as you local WiFi does expand, you can combine almost every model of Asus into a mesh network. So you upgrade the main router, and then you run Ethernet to the second floor and connect the old router and repurpose it as a mesh node. I have about 50+ WiFi devices, many of them inside lightbulbs, door/window sensors and wall switches, so these mesh nodes and creating a parallel WiFi network helps. But for most users, the choke poiint in not in their house.

With Asus, the simplest upgrade is just buy a second (or third) router and connect it to the first router with Ethernet. And you double your WiFi.

 

[MacinMan]

It seems that you are only using the local network for internet access. The bottleneck is likely both (1) the speed of your internet service and, (2) the speed of the servers you access.

With the above assumptions, you just don't need/can't use a higher performance local. network. My answer would be different if you have local services (NAS with many services enabled) on your net and more local users.

Obviously, a faster local WiFi will not let you watch a 10-minute YouTube cat video in 5 minutes. You have to measure and observe where the choke points are, likely these are not in your apartment.

ASUS is a very good brand because, as you local WiFi does expand, you can combine almost every model of Asus into a mesh network. So you upgrade the main router, and then you run Ethernet to the second floor and connect the old router and repurpose it as a mesh node. I have about 50+ WiFi devices, many of them inside lightbulbs, door/window sensors and wall switches, so these mesh nodes and creating a parallel WiFi network helps. But for most users, the choke poiint in not in their house.

With Asus, the simplest upgrade is just buy a second (or third) router and connect it to the first router with Ethernet. And you double your WiFi.

I was a bit confused with your reply. I'm not struggling with any bottlenecks. I just wanted to get my full gig to the computer for large downloads, and to do that, I needed to move from 1gigabit ports to 2.5.G. Everything else functions as it should, and Even with the 940 Mbps cap, it wasn't bad. I just wanted to get my full money's worth of the plan, so that's' why i got a router with 2.5G ports, a modem with a 2.5g port, and a UGREEN USB to Ethernet adapter for the iMac that's also 2..5G. Nothing else can take advantage of the little bit of bandwidth added other than the computer.