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Which architecture you think was more promising at its prime?

  • Intel x86

    Votes: 6 15.0%
  • Motorola 68000

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Sun SPARC

    Votes: 1 2.5%
  • MOS 6502

    Votes: 1 2.5%
  • DEC Alpha

    Votes: 6 15.0%
  • Silicon Graphics MIPS

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Apple A/M

    Votes: 11 27.5%
  • IBM PowerPC

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Qualcomm Snapdragon

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ARM in general

    Votes: 5 12.5%
  • Hitachi SuperH

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Zilog Z80

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 2.5%

  • Total voters
    40

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,244
1,398
Brazil
People seem to have gone wild about the new M1 processor being so much faster than Intel counterparts. The way I see it, that is just great, but it should have been expected.

First, because Apple processors have evolved over the years and the A14 inside both the iPhone 12 and the iPad Air has absolutely great single-core performance, better than high-end Intel processors. Nobody would reasonably expect Apple to release an ARM processor for the Mac with a slower single-core performance than the one inside the iPhone. And multi-core performance would of course be superior. So, everybody should have seen it coming.

Second, because, to go all the way to replace Intel processors, Apple should have something really great in their hands. And so it did. If the M1 was only 25% faster than the Intel processors, Apple would not have bothered to replace the chips inside the Macs, to develop Rosetta 2, to convince the developers to make the transition, and to run the risk of not having the possibility of running Windows on BootCamp. If a trillion-dollar company chose to make this risky move, it's because it had reason enough to fully believed in the success of the transition.

These two reasons alone were enough for me to expect something huge in terms of performance improvement. But there is a third reason that most people do not seem to be aware of. I am no computer programmer or hardware specialist, but I always had the impression that Intel's x86 architecture was just a bad one.

I remember how many different architectures there were back in the 1990s. The Motorola 68000 was a direct competitor to the x86, and many people said it was superior. The 6502 was said to be cheap and, although only 8-bit, performed more instructions per cycle than any other architecture. And then, in the 1990s, there were RISC architectures, the promise of the future. IBM PowerPC was powerful, and so was Sun's SPARC.

DEC introduced the Alpha, the first 64-bit architecture in 1992, and that was incredibly powerful, as I remember reading in magazines. But then Compaq bought DEC in 1998, and, being a company close to Intel, phased out Alpha. Compaq ultimately sold the Alpha architecture to Intel in 2001. So, it was game over for a major competitor.

Silicon Graphics was something else in the 1990s. Its computers were incredibly powerful, and it held a controlling interest in MIPS Technologies. MIPS architecture was very powerful, and it provided chips for both the Sony Playstation and the Nintendo 64, the consoles that would change the videogame landscape in the 1990s. But then, in 1998, Silicon Graphics decided to discontinue its line of MIPS mainstream processors, in favor of Intel's Itanium, which was supposed to be super-powerful. But Intel over-promised and under-delivered, and that, along with management issues, contributed to Silicon Graphics' bankruptcy.

As for the 68000, Motorola ceased the development in 1994, to replace it with the PowerPC. But IBM also did not have the scale to continue investing in the PowerPC in the 2000s to keep up with Intel, especially when Microsoft failed to support it.

So, as I watched it, many promising architectures came and went, and, at least as I have been told, they were all far superior to Intel's x86. But Intel prevailed over the years, and that was largely because it had the sheer luck to power the PC. As the PC became popular in the 1990s, Intel had the scale to invest in its poor architecture and to make individual processors cheaper. And any contender would have to face a major challenge: only Intel processors would run Windows, and such contender would have to develop a competing platform and convince users to migrate, which was unfeasible. So, Intel took down the competing architectures, one by one.

Then, two competitors emerged producing chips using x86 architecture that would run Windows as well. AMD and Cyrix were much smaller companies that managed to reverse-engineer the x86 and produce clones. And the clones were a serious challenge to Intel, which, not being very efficient at competing at its own arena even with much smaller and less powerful competitors, threatened to take down both in court.

So, Intel's dominance is because of circumstance and, I would dare to say, hardly by Intel's own merits. Now, Intel is a major global company and invests billions and billions of dollars in improving its weak architecture. Even though, it still gets headaches from AMD, which, although still much smaller, has managed to compete.

The popularization of the smartphone finally provided the scale for someone to invest and compete with the performance offered by Intel chips. Qualcomm was a small, virtually unknown, company, and suddenly, in the 2000s, started making chips for mobile phones. It grew into a multi-billion dollar business, and it dares to challenge Intel. Qualcomm Snapdragon processors even power Windows laptops and manage to emulate applications designed for Intel's architecture. Performance is far from being great, but that shows how competition became viable.

And, now, finally, we have someone to take Intel down. Phones provided the scale. And Apple certainly has the resources. If even AMD and Qualcomm can challenge Intel, you can imagine what Apple is capable of. In just a few years of developing its own architecture, Apple is able to trounce Intel. That speaks to how weak Intel's architecture is and to how inefficient Intel as a company is.

I am pretty sure that, once the door is open for ARM processors, other companies will take over Intel as well. Perhaps Qualcomm or Samsung or even NVIDIA (who knows, after it bought ARM) may have a hard time beating Apple in having the fastest processor of them all, but they should at least eat Intel for lunch. Intel's protection, which was the ubiquitousness of its architecture in PCs, seems to have fallen, and ARM seems a better alternative if properly funded.

I even created a poll so you can cast your vote, and we can see who thinks Intel x86 has ever been great to the point of manipulating the PC for so many years.
 

vladi

macrumors 65816
Jan 30, 2010
1,008
617
Intel is stuck with x86 and they know it, actually they knew that long time ago when they tried to get rid off their x86 dependence but the thing would just not die and no Apple or ARM will change that. Apple and Microsoft could change that if Apple agrees to sell it's own chip and chipset to others and then Microsoft recompiles Windows for ARM to take advantage of Apple's SoC the way macOS does. Do you see that happening? I don't. Do you see Mac selling more because of their custom chip? Maybe in some low single digit percentage.

What's gonna happen more likely is Intel hybrid x86 with ASIC and/or FPGA components to accelerate computing. They've done it before and they'll double down on it now.
 
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skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,244
1,398
Brazil
Intel is stuck with x86 and they know it, actually they knew that long time ago when they tried to get rid off their x86 dependence but the thing would just not die and no Apple or ARM will change that. Apple and Microsoft could change that if Apple agrees to sell it's own chip and chipset to others and then Microsoft recompiles Windows for ARM to take advantage of Apple's SoC the way macOS does. Do you see that happening? I don't. Do you see Mac selling more because of their custom chip? Maybe in some low single digit percentage.

What's gonna happen more likely is Intel hybrid x86 with ASIC and/or FPGA components to accelerate computing. They've done it before and they'll double down on it now.
I agree with you that the Mac may sell more because of M1, but not that much more. Mac computers are already perceived as high-quality products, and the main barrier to more consumers is the price. As Apple did not make the Mac line cheaper, it will not get significant market share just by making the computers faster.

I do not see Apple selling its chips to others as well.

But what I see is Qualcomm improving its own chips so they can better compete with Intel. I can also see NVIDIA entering this arena now that it has bought ARM. And perhaps others. ARM was already seen as a viable option before Apple released the M1 Macs. Microsoft announced support for the ARM chips, and new PCs were launched. However, after Intel threatened with legal action and the ARM Windows PCs were a disappointment, things sort of cooled off. But it seems that Qualcomm has not given up on the idea and is improving its processors, and the good experience with M1 Macs will only help its marketing. Intel will, of course, fight back.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,142
1,899
Anchorage, AK
Intel realized it was tied to x86 for good when Itanium flopped and AMD's x64 became to go-to standard for 64-bit Windows applications. Intel somehow rationalized the notion that everyone would be more than willing to sacrifice backwards compatibility for 64-bit computing when everyone else (including the businesses who purchase so many x86-based PCs each year) either needed or wanted that backwards compatibility with older applications not rewritten for x64. Right now, Intel is too busy trying to figure out ways to compensate for their inability to drop down to the 10nm process to even begin experimenting with ASIC/FPGA solutions to their architectural woes.
 
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skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,244
1,398
Brazil
Intel realized it was tied to x86 for good when Itanium flopped and AMD's x64 became to go-to standard for 64-bit Windows applications. Intel somehow rationalized the notion that everyone would be more than willing to sacrifice backwards compatibility for 64-bit computing when everyone else (including the businesses who purchase so many x86-based PCs each year) either needed or wanted that backwards compatibility with older applications not rewritten for x64. Right now, Intel is too busy trying to figure out ways to compensate for their inability to drop down to the 10nm process to even begin experimenting with ASIC/FPGA solutions to their architectural woes.
Yes, Intel is still struggling with the 10nm process. It launched the Broadwell with its 14nm process in 2014 and, since then, it has failed to meet the aggressive deadlines it set. It was supposed to launch its first 10nm processor in 2016, and the 7nm chips would come in 2018. Should everything be on track, perhaps Intel would launch its 5nm processors by now. And then, regardless of the architecture, Intel could still be the king and Apple would probably not have switched to its own ARM processors and Microsoft would not have flirted with Qualcomm.

To be fair, Intel's 10nm process seems to be equivalent to TSMC's 7nm. However, TSMC is already mass-producing 5nm processors and intends to drop to 3nm as early as 2022. Intel has only partially migrated its processors to 10nm and already announced that 7nm processors are late and will launch in 2022 or 2023. So, Intel is really falling behind. I don't know how long Intel will be able to keep up.
 

Mr. Awesome

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2016
1,243
2,881
Idaho, USA
Intel chips, even if they were much better than they are now, stand no chance against Apple’s ARM chips. Intel is tied down to a legacy architecture, lagging behind on production and promised die size reductions, not even close to ARM in terms of power efficiency, and is nowhere near close to a consistent release schedule. Apple was doing smartphone 64-bit in 2013. They’re not afraid to push the technology as far as it will go. And Apple already transitioned chip architectures from PowerPC to Intel, so they already have a major chip transition that they’ve learned from. They learned that emulation has to be speedy and invisible in order to be accepted, that developers are willing to make the transition if you point out the benefits and give them the right resources, and that jumping from a sinking ship (in this case, PowerPC chips) is a wise decision in the long run. Apple has been preparing for this transition for years, and this is one of the final nails in Intel’s coffin.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,244
1,398
Brazil
Intel chips, even if they were much better than they are now, stand no chance against Apple’s ARM chips. Intel is tied down to a legacy architecture, lagging behind on production and promised die size reductions, not even close to ARM in terms of power efficiency, and is nowhere near close to a consistent release schedule. Apple was doing smartphone 64-bit in 2013. They’re not afraid to push the technology as far as it will go. And Apple already transitioned chip architectures from PowerPC to Intel, so they already have a major chip transition that they’ve learned from. They learned that emulation has to be speedy and invisible in order to be accepted, that developers are willing to make the transition if you point out the benefits and give them the right resources, and that jumping from a sinking ship (in this case, PowerPC chips) is a wise decision in the long run. Apple has been preparing for this transition for years, and this is one of the final nails in Intel’s coffin.
100% agreed. Intel cannot compete with Apple.

If Intel had not delayed its processors and was launching its 5nm process in 2020, then perhaps its chip would be competitive and nothing like this would be happening. Yes, of course, the legacy architecture does not help, but, if Intel were efficient enough, maybe Apple would not have decided to go into all the troubles of transitioning to a new chip. But Apple had been cooking its alternative for some time now, and, prepared as it was, launched the M1 as Intel kept failing to meet expectations year after year.

As for this being one of the "final nails in Intel's coffin", let's see. Apple is a major computer seller, but it only represents something between 5-10% of total PC shipments. It is still a lot, but it will not destroy Intel per se. Intel still controls the PC market, and, especially, processors aimed at laptops. Now, if other PC manufacturers shift to ARM, then Intel is doomed. And this is increasingly likely to happen: Qualcomm is engaged in producing ARM processors suitable for PCs; Microsoft has been openly supporting Qualcomm chips; Apple has just proved that a full transition to ARM is possible; and NVIDIA, a key competitor to Intel, bought ARM and may decide to have its own CPUs in the future.

So, it may take some time, especially because the PC market is not controlled by just one company. Apple has done this before a few times, although it is never a walk in the park; but it never happened to PCs. Now, it seems to me that all stars seemed to be aligned for a major shift in the architecture of PCs for the first time in history. And the abandonment of x86 by PCs may be simply earth-shattering.
 

Sydde

macrumors 68030
Aug 17, 2009
2,563
7,061
IOKWARDI
Apple has one massive advantage: a few years back, they deprecated and then EoLed 32-bit on iOS as well as Mac. The M-series is fully untethered from ARMv7 32-bit, which means no 32-bit program logic, no Thumb, no vestigial Jazelle, just clean, pure 64-bit ARMv8 (with Apple customizations). Intel is not in a position to excise ia32 – the cruftiness of Intel processor architecture will continue to be a struggle for them.

But even a Broadcom is ensnared by the ARMv7 compatibility layer. They simply cannot deal with the risk of trying to sell a 64-bit-only processor, because they need the breadth of market that the compatibility layer supports. Apple is not selling their CPUs except in their own devices, so they can strip them to the bone, improving chip acreage and leaving room for certain special features that improve mac/iOS. And less acreage means signals/data get where they are going much faster.
 

David Hassholehoff

macrumors regular
Jul 26, 2020
122
90
The beach
The original Acorn RISC Machine! (So, ARM in general.) We should always strive to be more efficient, wether it be CPUs or cars or whatever.

I was excited about Intel Itanium, but then they ruined it by continuing with x86.
 

DiGiornot my real dad

macrumors newbie
Nov 22, 2020
6
4
You're carrying an awful lot of recency bias. We wouldn't be here at all without the Intel 4004, the 286, the Pentium Pro, etc. You can pin a lot of things on Intel, but "weak architecture" really isn't one of them, and that x86 made it this far speaks to its strengths (credit to AMD for x86-64, of course). Anyway, in 2020, AArch64 and x86-64 are extremely similar... they came from different directions, but they've converged, making the entire RISC/"CISC" discussion largely meaningless. Performance gains are coming from new microarchitecture design and not the chosen ISA.

Intel is down now, but AMD floundered for a decade and are now doing well, and I really hope Intel will do the same. The more oligopolistic processor design becomes, the worse off we are. I'm glad the M1 is a good chip, I hope Intel figures out their fab woes and AMD's Zen series stays good, and I hope Nvidia comes out of left field with some insanely competitive processor. Hell, I hope we're all using some Google Sycamore based quantum thing in ten years, laughing about when we used to use those ridiculous "classical physics" processors. The more successful players we have, the better.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,674
Second, because, to go all the way to replace Intel processors, Apple should have something really great in their hands. And so it did. If the M1 was only 25% faster than the Intel processors, Apple would not have bothered to replace the chips inside the Macs, to develop Rosetta 2, to convince the developers to make the transition, and to run the risk of not having the possibility of running Windows on BootCamp. If a trillion-dollar company chose to make this risky move, it's because it had reason enough to fully believed in the success of the transition.

I wouldn't say that M1 is faster than Intel. The peak performance is essentially comparable to Intel's best. It's just that Apple can deliver that performance with 75% less energy used. Which in turn makes their multi-core designs utterly ridiculous.
 
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ArPe

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2020
1,281
3,325
I voted DEC Alpha because I remember they not only had an efficient processor but they also had double the clock speed of anything available around 96-97. They ran a custom version of Windows NT that could translate x86 apps.

They got quickly outpaced by Intel and AMD within two years, but have to give them credit for being so ahead of the curve in their day.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,244
1,398
Brazil
Apple has one massive advantage: a few years back, they deprecated and then EoLed 32-bit on iOS as well as Mac. The M-series is fully untethered from ARMv7 32-bit, which means no 32-bit program logic, no Thumb, no vestigial Jazelle, just clean, pure 64-bit ARMv8 (with Apple customizations). Intel is not in a position to excise ia32 – the cruftiness of Intel processor architecture will continue to be a struggle for them.

But even a Broadcom is ensnared by the ARMv7 compatibility layer. They simply cannot deal with the risk of trying to sell a 64-bit-only processor, because they need the breadth of market that the compatibility layer supports. Apple is not selling their CPUs except in their own devices, so they can strip them to the bone, improving chip acreage and leaving room for certain special features that improve mac/iOS. And less acreage means signals/data get where they are going much faster.
Yes, Apple can certainly push its own processors the way it wants, as it keeps tight control over its product line. PC makers cannot afford this, as there is competition that will prevent processors from fully moving to 64-bit in a short period of time. Perhaps Microsoft could push for that with Windows.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,244
1,398
Brazil
The original Acorn RISC Machine! (So, ARM in general.) We should always strive to be more efficient, wether it be CPUs or cars or whatever.

I was excited about Intel Itanium, but then they ruined it by continuing with x86.
I guess I was never really excited by anything Intel ever produced. I was once excited about DEC Alpha, MIPS, and now Apple A/M processors.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,244
1,398
Brazil
You're carrying an awful lot of recency bias. We wouldn't be here at all without the Intel 4004, the 286, the Pentium Pro, etc. You can pin a lot of things on Intel, but "weak architecture" really isn't one of them, and that x86 made it this far speaks to its strengths (credit to AMD for x86-64, of course). Anyway, in 2020, AArch64 and x86-64 are extremely similar... they came from different directions, but they've converged, making the entire RISC/"CISC" discussion largely meaningless. Performance gains are coming from new microarchitecture design and not the chosen ISA.

Intel is down now, but AMD floundered for a decade and are now doing well, and I really hope Intel will do the same. The more oligopolistic processor design becomes, the worse off we are. I'm glad the M1 is a good chip, I hope Intel figures out their fab woes and AMD's Zen series stays good, and I hope Nvidia comes out of left field with some insanely competitive processor. Hell, I hope we're all using some Google Sycamore based quantum thing in ten years, laughing about when we used to use those ridiculous "classical physics" processors. The more successful players we have, the better.
Well, not truly recent. I remember back in the 1990s how impressive DEC Alpha was, and how Silicon Graphics trounced Intel. And there were several other architectures around, and x86 did not seem to have anything special about it. Intel had the advantage of producing chips that would work with DOS/Windows, and that seemed to be it.

I hope there is competition in this segment. Finally. Intel has nearly monopolized the PC market for decades now. And Intel clearly (and understandably) uses its IP to prevent competitors from coming in. AMD is perhaps the only competitor, especially in the high-performance market (such as desktops for gamers), but fails to make a crack in the mainstream laptops. With some luck, there will be more credible players on the field.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,244
1,398
Brazil
I wouldn't say that M1 is faster than Intel. The peak performance is essentially comparable to Intel's best. It's just that Apple can deliver that performance with 75% less energy used. Which in turn makes their multi-core designs utterly ridiculous.
I would say it is faster. If Apple can deliver the performance with 75% less energy, then its performance with the same amount of energy is much higher.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,244
1,398
Brazil
I voted DEC Alpha because I remember they not only had an efficient processor but they also had double the clock speed of anything available around 96-97. They ran a custom version of Windows NT that could translate x86 apps.

They got quickly outpaced by Intel and AMD within two years, but have to give them credit for being so ahead of the curve in their day.
Yes, DEC Alpha was something else back then. It is impressive how many great new architectures were out in the 1980s and 1990s. DEC Alpha was ahead of the curve. I do not know why they declined, but perhaps if they had enough investment...
 

Sydde

macrumors 68030
Aug 17, 2009
2,563
7,061
IOKWARDI
Yes, DEC Alpha was something else back then. It is impressive how many great new architectures were out in the 1980s and 1990s. DEC Alpha was ahead of the curve. I do not know why they declined, but perhaps if they had enough investment...
DEC was bought by Compaq, which merged with HP and eventually they dropped the whole Alpha project because HP-Compaq was banking on making a splash with Itanic. Oddly, around that time, a company called Transmeta released its Crusoe device that ran x86-32 more efficiently than Intel processors of the time using a VLIW architecture (as did Itanic) that "code-morphed" the machine code. It is not clear what could be accomplished using Crusoe native code, but it sounds like maybe it could be impressive performance if it were ever tried.
 
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