First PB1, then DP5, now DP6? Wrong way to do it?

[fanta]

Lets say i have a friend who joined the public beta, did a clean install on a seperate partition and wanted to contribute to refining yosemite with lots of feedback (about 60 reported errors with feedback assistant).

Then Developer Preview 5 launched and he wanted to check if the errors were fixed. He installed the DP5 Delta Update Package (a friend of his got him a download link) and then continued giving feedback with the feedback assistent.

Then yesterday he got hold of the DP6 delta update package and installed it.
Everything is running smoothly so far but he is still experiencing bugs and graphical glitches here and there (its a beta, right?) and he wants to continue giving feedback with the Feedback Assistant.

Is there something wrong with the way he did it? He is NOT a developer and aside from the obvious failure that he's not obligated for the developer previews, is there something technically important he is missing out by going "clean PB1 > DP5 delta update > DP6 delta update"?


as i said, just hypothetically?

 

[merrickdrfc]

There's nothing wrong with updating the way your friend has, except for the fact that he's updating builds of pre-release software. The best way to make sure you have as little weird bugs/issues as possible is to perform a clean install with every build

 

[jian]

That's what I did, and everything seems to be fine but it's missing the little pop sounds when adjusting audio level.

 

[eyvind]

That's what I did, and everything seems to be fine but it's missing the little pop sounds when adjusting audio level.

Those default to "off" in Yosemite, but you can turn them on again in System Preferences -> Sound -> Sound Effects.

 

[kappaknight]

This was my upgrade path too. No major issues other than the ones that are expected, and reported by everyone else.

 

[fanta]

This was my upgrade path too. No major issues other than the ones that are expected, and reported by everyone else.

yeah well, thats what i'm not exactly sure of because "he" sees and has reported many bugs here, that have not been discussed already. like windows resizing themselves, forgetting positions, transparency glitches, roughly rounded corners. etc...

thats why im assuming that some of those glitches might come from a "bad" upgrade path...

and of course we are all aware that installing pre-release versions is a tricky thing in its nature. but thats the whole point of installing it, to test and report back, nothing else.

 

[kappaknight]

yeah well, thats what i'm not exactly sure of because "he" sees and has reported many bugs here, that have not been discussed already. like windows resizing themselves, forgetting positions, transparency glitches, roughly rounded corners. etc...

thats why im assuming that some of those glitches might come from a "bad" upgrade path...

and of course we are all aware that installing pre-release versions is a tricky thing in its nature. but thats the whole point of installing it, to test and report back, nothing else.

Feel free to start discussions about them and see if others are seeing similar things. Sometimes things are so minor that most just assume they'll be fixed before GM.

 

[fanta]

This was my upgrade path too. No major issues other than the ones that are expected, and reported by everyone else.

Feel free to start discussions about them and see if others are seeing similar things. Sometimes things are so minor that most just assume they'll be fixed before GM.

i have reported even really small and picky stuff because i am assuming that everybody thinks its gonna be fixed and in the end nobody reports it

 

[UncleSchnitty]

i have reported even really small and picky stuff because i am assuming that everybody thinks its gonna be fixed and in the end nobody reports it

You mean "he has reported..."

 

[fanta]

You mean "he has reported..."

whoops, typo

 

[laurihoefs]

yeah well, thats what i'm not exactly sure of because "he" sees and has reported many bugs here, that have not been discussed already. like windows resizing themselves, forgetting positions, transparency glitches, roughly rounded corners. etc...

thats why im assuming that some of those glitches might come from a "bad" upgrade path...

and of course we are all aware that installing pre-release versions is a tricky thing in its nature. but thats the whole point of installing it, to test and report back, nothing else.

These issues sound same as the ones people with clean installs of the public betas have encountered.

But didn't Feedback Assistant warn you, that the bug reports you sent from DP5 were most likely discarded, because they were sent from a build not included in the beta program? It should pop up a warning, if you try to use it in a non-supported build.

 

[fanta]

Yes, thats what i get:

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/3396571/Bildschirmfoto 2014-08-19 um 20.00.06.png

I can only chose OS X Yosemite Beta.

Is that incorrect? Is my feedback worthless? Do developers with DP5 DP6 provide feedback on another way?

 

[laurihoefs]

Yes, thats what i get:

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/3396571/Bildschirmfoto 2014-08-19 um 20.00.06.png

I can only chose OS X Yosemite Beta.

Is that incorrect? Is my feedback worthless? Do developers with DP5 DP6 provide feedback on another way?

Developers use Bug Reporter.

Feedback Assistant is only used for the different Appleseed programs and the public beta, which all require that the user is both a member of the seed/beta program, and uses the build assigned to the program.

But like the warning says, feedback against incorrect projects may not be processed. So your feedback still has a chance.

 

[fanta]

I HAVE read the message before but i have to admit: would be a bummer if they didnt check the feedback. i have collected 62 cases of glitches and bugs and inconsistencies in DP6 alone plus there are about 20 cases that have already been fixed up until today.

would be a shame if they didnt count - i just want to help

 

[UncleSchnitty]

I HAVE read the message before but i have to admit: would be a bummer if they didnt check the feedback. i have collected 62 cases of glitches and bugs and inconsistencies in DP6 alone plus there are about 20 cases that have already been fixed up until today.

would be a shame if they didnt count - i just want to help

I'm pretty sure that your feedback is being given the same treatment as everyone elses. The whole development program/public preview works out for Apple, basically they have a ton of people finding bugs and problems for them so they don't have to pay in house people to do it. Its quite clever if you think about it. So basically I don't think there is a such thing as "bad feedback" during this period. I think when they say that "incorrect projects may not be processed" I believe they are talking about 1. things they don't have control over (i.e. "photoshop glitches in dark mode") and 2. Maybe things that they haven't asked developers to specifically pay attention to but i doubt it.

I remember on one of the updated (mavericks or maybe mountain lion) Apple came across the issue that even pirated software was updating to legitimate copies threw Software update. Rather than spend time and money on stopping it they just said "we know its going to happen but we obviously hope people don't do it". Remember that Apple is a Hardware company, their software is just a bonus to them.

So long story short, I think that they don't differentiate your feedback vs developers because in the end you are doing a job for them for free. But then again I don't know...

 

[jian]

Those default to "off" in Yosemite, but you can turn them on again in System Preferences -> Sound -> Sound Effects.

Ah, got it working again! thanks.
I wonder why it was on by default if I do DP 1-5 but not working if I do PB1-DP5.
Strange.

 

[laurihoefs]

Ah, got it working again! thanks.
I wonder why it was on by default if I do DP 1-5 but not working if I do PB1-DP5.
Strange.

Updates don't usually change settings, but if the default setting has changed at some point, any clean install will have the new default setting.

So for example, if the default was changed in DP4, upgrading DP1 all the way to DP4 would keep the existing settings whatever they are, but if you do a clean DP4 install (which was available as a full installer instead of just a delta update), you would get the new defaults.

I remember on one of the updated (mavericks or maybe mountain lion) Apple came across the issue that even pirated software was updating to legitimate copies threw Software update. Rather than spend time and money on stopping it they just said "we know its going to happen but we obviously hope people don't do it". Remember that Apple is a Hardware company, their software is just a bonus to them.

Those were the versions iLife and iWork released with Mavericks. Apple had a choice of making upgrading difficult for people who had actually bought legitimate copies of iWork and iLife, or making things as simple as possible for everyone and accept that a few pirates might also get the software for free. Luckily they chose the latter option. But this would not be something Apple came across by chance after the release, it was a conscious decision made in advance. Remember, some earlier iWork versions used serials/activation keys, but the current versions appear for free not only for everyone with previous versions installed, but for all newly registered AppleID/iTunes/MAS accounts too.

So long story short, I think that they don't differentiate your feedback vs developers because in the end you are doing a job for them for free. But then again I don't know...

Could be. But at the same time, all the feedback (which there is a ton of) has to be filtered, and reports with wrong build numbers along with third party software issues would be the first ones to discard. I don't want to discourage anyone from sending feedback, but the warning is there for a reason.

 

[chrfr]

Yes, thats what i get:

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/3396571/Bildschirmfoto 2014-08-19 um 20.00.06.png

I can only chose OS X Yosemite Beta.

Is that incorrect? Is my feedback worthless? Do developers with DP5 DP6 provide feedback on another way?

Yes, developers use the Apple Bug Reporter site.
The problem with updating the beta to a DP is that the OS is in an unknown state and bug reporting is tainted as a result, and potentially counterproductive.

 

[DSeeker]

Yes, developers use the Apple Bug Reporter site.
The problem with updating the beta to a DP is that the OS is in an unknown state and bug reporting is tainted as a result, and potentially counterproductive.

According to MacWorld PB1 and DP4 are identical. "The first public build of Yosemite is the same one received by registered Mac developers earlier this week." Since the build numbers differ only by 1 it was no doubt done only to change the build numbers for the sake of making them differentiable. If this is true, then DP1 -> ... -> DP5 -> DP6 would be exactly the same path as PB1 -> DP5 -> DP6. It wouldn't result in an unknown state.

If the guys at Apple had wanted to prevent the PB1 -> DP5 path, it would have been easy to do by having the installer check the installed build number prior to installing the update or better still making you log into your developer account before installing. They're also big boys and know that all of their beta versions, both for iOS and OS X, are available on torrent sites. Trying to control this would just be a waste of time, especially for a product that they're going to give away.

Their only real interest in this is getting Yosemite ready for release and this does not mean bug-free. They look at bug reports in a statistical sense. Commonly reported bugs get first attention. If your reported PB1 -> DP5 bug is common, it will get attention. If it is very rare or unique, it will not. It's impossible to get all the bugs out of a software system this big.

 

[talmy]

PB1 and DP4 are not identical. The Feedback Assistant app in PB1 is different that that provided to beta testers and the handling of bug reports is different. It will be obvious to Apple that anyone who has signed up to the public beta and submits bug reports with DP5 or DP6 that they are not supposed to have those releases. It's anyone's guess what will happen to the reports. People with legitimate access to DP4 were warned not to install PB1.

 

[Menel]

Did DP5 or 6 fix the Loupe and zooming in Aperture?

Or is that hosed until Aperture gets properly patched for Yosemite?

 

[DesterWallaboo]

Did DP5 or 6 fix the Loupe and zooming in Aperture?

Or is that hosed until Aperture gets properly patched for Yosemite?

I doubt Aperture will be patched at all. They already have announced that Aperture is a dead product.

 

[DSeeker]

PB1 and DP4 are not identical. The Feedback Assistant app in PB1 is different that that provided to beta testers and the handling of bug reports is different. It will be obvious to Apple that anyone who has signed up to the public beta and submits bug reports with DP5 or DP6 that they are not supposed to have those releases. It's anyone's guess what will happen to the reports. People with legitimate access to DP4 were warned not to install PB1.

Adding a feedback app is not the same thing as changes to the basic OS. They are identical where it matters.

It is anyone's guess what happens to any of the bug reports.

It's obvious that people in the DP track shouldn't install PB1 since that would take them out of the frequent update track. That's bad for the user since he doesn't get bug fixes as often and it's bad for Apple since they lose sources of more frequent bug reports. A real developer needs frequent updates so his project development doesn't get stalled for too long by a critical bug. Switching from the PB to the DP is good for both the users and Apple - many of us aren't developing anything, we're just checking for bugs and the more eyes looking for bugs, the better.

This was the first PB since 10.0 and I suspect that it will be the last. It's not clear to me at all what their purpose was. With the video game Destiny the beta let Bungie stress test their servers. OTOH, it may be that Yosemite was the test case for opening future betas to the public, and the PB1 -> DP5 path was set in place on purpose to provide a bridge to test the theory that the more eyes, the better. It's all speculation.

 

[talmy]

It is anyone's guess what happens to any of the bug reports.

They state that bug reports from the DPs get reviewed by engineering while those from the PB get screened by a separate group. One can guess that the latter are just counted up and will never get feedback to the submitter and likely will never be seen by engineering unless they get thousands of identical reports. If you have 1,000,000 public beta testers and each submits just 10 bug reports, how many employees will take how many years to check them all out? (Sounds like a good math problem!)

 

[goMac]

Pretty sure Apple will not give bug feedback to non-developers on a developer build.

Apple does track when bugs are fixed themselves and will email out to developers when the bug is fixed. Given that your friend is not a developer, they will not be on that list, and they won't be part of the review cycle for developer previews.

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I doubt Aperture will be patched at all. They already have announced that Aperture is a dead product.

Apple has already announced it will be patched for Yosemite.