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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,010
8,443
I guess the writer thinks that Apple could be overconfident about ARM Macs.
I don't see anything wrong with the article's reasoning.

A 12/13" "non-Pro" MacBook will play on ARM's known strengths - decent performance at low power - and will likely run all browser-based applications plus Pages/Numbers/Keynote etc. on day 1, maybe even native MS Office and Photoshop. It should be a "slam-dunk" and Apple would have to try very hard to mess it up.

The "Pro" machines were always going to be the challenge, especially the desktops which don't get such a big, obvious advantage from lower-wattage chips. Take away the cooling/battery-life advantage and (unlike the PPC and Intel transitions) an ARM core isn't night-and-day faster than x86, but it is smaller and allows Apple to make pick'n'mix SoCs, The advantage is going to come from either more cores or all the other specialist accelerators that Apple can now cram on the chip. It's likely that there will wide variations in ASi vs. Intel performance between different pro apps depending on whether they're native and how well they exploit the new hardware. A lot depends on a myriad of third-party plug-ins, drivers and other associated utilities, which are often a critical part of pro workflows, getting native & optimised versions in a timely fashion. Also, if the rumours are right, and Apple are basically dropping support for discrete/external GPUs, there's going to be a lot of skepticism about Apple Silicon GPU-only systems to overcome.

A lot will depend both on how "magical" Rosetta2 turns out to be, as well as how good Apple is about chivvying third-party developers to fix their software.

It's not "doom and gloom" but neither is it a "slam dunk". Apple is taking a risk.

The article also seems to be reacting to the rumours (another link down) that Apple will be releasing a new 16" Mac Pro with Intel chips. I find that kinda hopeful: there's going to be an up-to-date Intel option available so pro users won't be expected to change workflows overnight and can spend a year or so evaluating ARM Macs and waiting for their key software to"go native" (c.f. the last two Mac Pro releases where the previous version was hopelessly out-of-date by the time Apple launched a radical re-design). Of course, the flip side of this is that others won't lift a finger to change as long as Intel Macs are available... but not letting those users rule the roost is why Mac is Mac and Windows is Windows...
 

Jorbanead

macrumors 65816
Aug 31, 2018
1,209
1,438
The article (which really doesn’t say anything newsworthy) is mostly just saying “Apple seems confident, but we will have to wait and see” which is a pointless article.

Its not really saying one way or the other - just pointing out that Apple *could* be overconfident. They have no real reason to say this other than just wanting to pump out an article so people click on their site. They have no insider knowledge or new details that we don’t have.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,138
1,899
Anchorage, AK
Forbes used to be a reputable site for business news, then they outsourced 90% of their content to freelancers who barely know how to write complete sentences let alone craft a logical narrative to anything they write. Ever since that point, Forbes has been about as reliable as the National Enquirer. Microsoft has made some inroads with its Surface Pro X and the ARM-based LTE laptops offered by Samsung and Lenovo, but it's still a niche market on the Windows side of the equation. Apple making the move away from Intel will force developers to begin work on versions of their software for the ARM instruction set, which will ultimately benefit both Apple and Microsoft in the long run given the issues with Intel and their effect on the ultraportable market.
 

jz0309

Contributor
Sep 25, 2018
11,379
30,019
SoCal
The Forbes articles I've read over the past 12 months or so on Apple specifically have been meh, not bullish at all and I agree with above that they've turned more and more into a click bait ...
 
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Joelist

macrumors 6502
Jan 28, 2014
463
373
Illinois
First, there is no such thing as an "ARM Core". Especially when it comes to Apple Silicon where all they use of ARM is the ISA - all the microarchitecture is 100% in house designed and bears no resemblance to Cortex. The Apple Silicon A Series is already desktop class, resembling the Intel Core 2 more than anything else. So Apple already knows their silicon has the necessary power.

Second, Apple already announced at WWDC that the Mac will be using a new family of Apple Silicon - so anyone out there saying they are just sticking the iPad SOC in a laptop is wrong. My bare minimum guess is they may use their A Series cores but the performance core count will jump from 2 to at least 6 and the GPU block will have a similar increase in cores, plus the whole SOC will have a bunch more cache. So obviously the Mac SOC will be physically larger even using the 5nm process.

Third, the forbes writer is wrong by saying Apple has not publicly showed legacy software running under Apple Silicon. They showed both FULL Microsoft Office for Mac and FULL Adobe Creative Suite running natively. They also showed Autodesk Maya running VERY fast under Rosetta 2.
 
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Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,344
For one, is Forbes
For two is clear he/they didnt had/use the dev mac mini to see what an 2 years old ipad chip can already do
 

Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,344
First, there is no such thing as an "ARM Core". Especially when it comes to Apple Silicon where all they use of ARM is the ISA - all the microarchitecture is 100% in house designed and bears no resemblance to Cortex. The Apple Silicon A Series is already desktop class, resembling the Intel Core 2 more than anything else. So Apple already knows their silicon has the necessary power.
This...and don't forget, Apple stole the Intel chip guy for quite some time, Johny Srouji and thats why Apple chip are so good and Intel is not anymore
 
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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,010
8,443
First, there is no such thing as an "ARM Core".

Of course there is. If you want to stickle over whether it means "Processor core implementing the ARM instruction set" or "processor core designed by ARM ltd." then go ahead, but it doesn't affect the argument. Not having to include an x86 instruction decoder and the flexible licensing are two of the major fundamental advantages of ARM/ASi/whatever over x86.

Second, Apple already announced at WWDC that the Mac will be using a new family of Apple Silicon - so anyone out there saying they are just sticking the iPad SOC in a laptop is wrong.

I don't see anybody saying that here. There have been rumours that at least the entry-level MB will use an A14-series chip (which would be perfectly adequate for a 12" MacBook replacement and is technically "new" since WWDC) and until next week, rumours are all we have.

Third, the forbes writer is wrong by saying Apple has not publicly showed legacy software running under Apple Silicon.

Yes, the writer is technically incorrect there - on the other hand, a few snippets of "advertorial" video showing carefully selected apps, running in a controlled environment on undisclosed hardware, with no firm details about availability dates or detailed features don't really count for much. I'm not suggesting for one moment that Apple faked anything - but they would absolutely have chosen examples that showed the system in its best light and avoided anything problematic. For one thing it's quite likely that performance under Rosetta2 will vary hugely between apps depending on exactly how they are written, and to what extent they hand over the "heavy lifting" to MacOS frameworks.

The proof of the pudding will be when real people get their hands on the systems and find out which bits of their entire workflow - including drivers, plug-ins, obscure features - have problems. There will be problems: just as there have been problems with every major Mac OS update since whenever, even when they didn't involve completely new processor architectures.

It's not just creative pros and their libraries of third-party effects, codecs, drivers, software instruments etc. In academia, for instance, it won't matter that native MS Office is available on day 1 if Endnote isn't available (not to imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth when users find that the latest Office is scary different from Office 2011)... and while I personally think that the loss of BootCamp and x86 hardware virtualization is a price worth paying, it is going to be a deal-breaker for some.

The forbes article isn't well written and doesn't contain anything particularly new or insightful - but nor is it making any extraordinary claims apart from perfectly healthy "show me" skepticism. Once independent reviewers and real users get their hands on ASi hardware we'll be able to start making judgements (...but first we're going to have to wait for actual availability and suffer gushing, superficial reviews from YouTube influencers...)

Until then, some rumours may be more plausible than others, but they're still just rumours... and Apple announcements will put the most positive spin possible on everything.

I'm actually optimistic about the whole thing, and really don't agree with the "you can't make a pro computer without Intel" brigade - but Apple is still taking a huge risk that won't work unless they lavish rather more visible love, attention and money on the Mac range than they have in recent years.
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,866
it's quite likely that performance under Rosetta2 will vary hugely between apps depending on exactly how they are written, and to what extent they hand over the "heavy lifting" to MacOS frameworks.

Using frameworks for heavy lifting should have little influence on performance in most cases. Each process is either all-emulated or all-native, so x86 processes use the x86 versions of macOS frameworks, not the ARM versions.

IIRC, this was the same under Rosetta 1. While Rosetta 2 is independent work which probably shares zero code with Rosetta 1, perhaps this is a case where the same problem space led to the same engineering solution.

Regardless of the why, x86 software can only benefit from native performance when the work done on its behalf is done in a separate process or by the kernel.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,138
1,899
Anchorage, AK
Intel is already going on the offensive against Apple's new processors. When they held their online event to announce the 11th gen Core processors, they kept making cryptic references to "other processors", which included both AMD and Apple at the time. Since AMD's announcement of their new 5th gen Ryzen parts and the Radeon 6xxx videocards, Intel's approach has shifted away from AMD and towards Apple (even though they won't say Apple's name because of the existing agreements still in place between the two companies.)
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
I don't see anything wrong with the article's reasoning.

A 12/13" "non-Pro" MacBook will play on ARM's known strengths - decent performance at low power - ,,,

The "Pro" machines were always going to be the challenge, especially the desktops which don't get such a big, obvious advantage from lower-wattage chips. Take away the cooling/battery-life advantage and (unlike the PPC and Intel transitions) an ARM core isn't night-and-day faster than x86,

Errr. Talking about desktops in general over the whole classic PC form factor market or Apple desktops?

Apple desktop cooling is an issue across most of the line up.

The Mini doesn't have a cooling constraints. ... not really.
The iMac 27" top BTO options no cooling constraints .... not really.

The iMac Pro has downclocked CPU and GPU components due to cooling constraints ... yes.

Apple goes out of their way to push their desktops in the very similar design constraints they push their laptops. So there is more syngery. The only place in the current line up where Apple decoupled the internal components from the Apple signature design that compromises cooling is the Mac Pro. .... And Apple is working to chop that case down in half ... to bring more coupling back into play. ( Not a complete retreat back to the Mac Pro 2013 ... but that too was plauged in Apple's own terms by being "painted into a corner". ). Apple likes that "corner" they painted themselves into. If they get their own chips so they can go back there .... there is pretty good chance they'll go back there over time. At least closer.


but it is smaller and allows Apple to make pick'n'mix SoCs, The advantage is going to come from either more cores or all the other specialist accelerators that Apple can now cram on the chip. It's likely that there will wide variations in ASi vs. Intel performance between different pro apps depending on whether they're native and how well they exploit the new hardware.


That may not be as wide in multiple dimensions of performance. Apple is doing a chopped down Mac Pro because it is too expensive as a entry point. Or doing it because SoC doesn't have I/O provisioning capabilities of a Mac Pro 2019 class workstation ? Pretty decent chance it is the latter.





A lot depends on a myriad of third-party plug-ins, drivers and other associated utilities, which are often a critical part of pro workflows, getting native & optimised versions in a timely fashion.

Apple is disrupting drivers on the Intel side of macOS 11 also.


Also, if the rumours are right, and Apple are basically dropping support for discrete/external GPUs, there's going to be a lot of skepticism about Apple Silicon GPU-only systems to overcome.

Those rumors are rather weakly motivated by statements from Apple. Apple doesn't talk long term in detail to anyone in public. The developer transition kit and the recently more strongly 'rumored' 13" Mac laptops never did have discrete GPUs. So macOS 11 on Apple Silicon not supporting what the shipping systems don't have doesn't really tell much at all one way or the other. ( other than perhaps nothing soon in that space. )

The article also seems to be reacting to the rumours (another link down) that Apple will be releasing a new 16" Mac Pro with Intel chips. I find that kinda hopeful: there's going to be an up-to-date Intel option available so pro users won't be expected to change workflows overnight and can spend a year or so evaluating ARM Macs and waiting for their key software to"go native"

As 'hopeful' that Apple doesn't expect 10's of millions of users to throw away perfectly functional Intel based Macs to get a Apple Silicon one. There are folks who regularly buy 'newest" on short cycles and those on longer term replacement cycles.

I think there is a bit of hysteria about how Apple is going to be "Big Bang" rapidly replace every Intel model in a matter of months with a full, broad Apple Silicon replacements for both CPU and every GPU option now possible. Apple completely throwing out both Intel and AMD in a short term of time would be surprising.


(c.f. the last two Mac Pro releases where the previous version was hopelessly out-of-date by the time Apple launched a radical re-design). Of course, the flip side of this is that others won't lift a finger to change as long as Intel Macs are available... but not letting those users rule the roost is why Mac is Mac and Windows is Windows...

Lots of folks with low volume drivers , software, etc. aren't going to "lift a finger" anyway. Did the termination of 32-bit apps get every single developer to quickly revise their apps? No. For some Apple Silicon is going to kill off the product that was on zombie support coasting on next to zero development costs.

Many folks buy new software when get a new machine. As long as Apple moves the top 2 highest volume selling products onto Apple Silicon they will get developer uptake on porting. There is a dubious notion echoing around these forums about how has to shoot the Intel models in the head prematurely to get developers to move. That is just goofy. Any reasonable software development business that has money to cover the porting costs will go when there are several million macs per quarter being sold that they are missing out on.

More liklely the "dragging feet" is driven by either lack of revenue or lack of "spare time". Stress those guys out too much and they have a Windows (and/or other platform to support that has growth ) and likely to just get product canned or put into zombie state.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,917
2,169
Redondo Beach, California
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewansp...pro-arm-intel-imac-mac-macpro-a14t-gpu-macos/

I guess the writer thinks that Apple could be overconfident about ARM Macs. My credit card is ready despite the doom and gloom in the article :p
But you are not "most people". Apple's Mac sales did not really take off until after the change to Intel CPUs. People saw they would run Windows on these Macs. That has now gone away. So maybe for every Apple enthusiast who would buy whatever Apple makes there is a person who needs to run some Windows apps.

This switch will work or not based on how the new Macs work.

I suspect they will work really well at the low end for simple tasks like email, Youtube, and web browsing which is 99% of what most people use the computer for.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,092
22,158
This is the publication that refused to retract their story of Apple/Amazon/etc being infiltrated by secret chips from China on their servers...which don’t exist, according to literally everybody but Bloomberg.

Why do people have any faith in tech “reporting” these days?
 
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MevetS

Cancelled
Dec 27, 2018
374
303
This is the publication that refused to retract their story of Apple/Amazon/etc being infiltrated by secret chips from China on their servers...which don’t exist, according to literally everybody but Bloomberg.

Why do people have any faith in tech “reporting” these days?

Forbes and Bloomberg are different publications with different owners. Bloomberg published and has not retracted the chip story.
 
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