http://digg.com/design/Forbes_magazine_thinks_designers_are_overpaid_and_snotty
Let's see what would happen if they followed their own advice?
Let's see what would happen if they followed their own advice?
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Forbes magazine thinks designers are overpaid and snotty
- Thread starter hobbbz
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Did you guys actually read the article, to me it's not only a much needed business idea but it helps out the small guys that can't afford to pay $2000 for a logo.
That's brilliant and great for the buyer, instead of hiring one designer to give you a couple different ideas you can get hundreds, that's great. I've used sites like 99designs before and I love them, someone who is always starting new websites and new ideas it's important to get good artwork yet I don't have the money to throw around for an "expensive" designer and quiet frankly the work I've seen on these sites is better anyway.
That's brilliant and great for the buyer, instead of hiring one designer to give you a couple different ideas you can get hundreds, that's great. I've used sites like 99designs before and I love them, someone who is always starting new websites and new ideas it's important to get good artwork yet I don't have the money to throw around for an "expensive" designer and quiet frankly the work I've seen on these sites is better anyway.
I don't really make websites, sorry, but programmers have been facing this head on for many years already. Sites like odesk, guru.com, elance, dice all offer an "auction" style bidding place for people to get programming and web work done for very cheap. As much as designers want to bitch and complain they don't release that this has been happening to every other sector for a long time now.
As a programmer I've tried those sites and discovered that it's not worth my time. For 1/4 of the price I would charge a buyer can have a program developed from someone over in India. I have two options, I can lower my rates to around minimum wage to compete or I can go elsewhere...I chose the later. If you're worth the amount you charge and your work is better then the rest you should be fine, if not then maybe you should be on those sites bidding for work.
An important point. But then, I suppose many would consider me both snotty AND overpaid.
http://www.no-spec.com/
So while all the "real designers" are complaining about these sites the people that embrace them or ignore them will get all the work. I've used 99designs a few times and I've been very happy with the work. I even keep in touch with a couple of the designers that won my contests so they can do future work for me.Just because it's affordable does not mean it's bad. I would bet 1/4 of the people on those sites could out design "professional" designers anyway.
The point isn't that cheap is bad.
Porsche doesn't complain when a 16 yr old saves up enough for a used station wagon instead of buying one of their cars. The clients of these 'churn it out' designers just need to know that they get what they pay for. (ie not a Porsche)
Porsche doesn't complain when a 16 yr old saves up enough for a used station wagon instead of buying one of their cars. The clients of these 'churn it out' designers just need to know that they get what they pay for. (ie not a Porsche)
Just because it's affordable does not mean it's bad. I would bet 1/4 of the people on those sites could out design "professional" designers anyway.
Its not about being "affordable"... when a designer does work in the hope that they MAY get paid, its bad for the designer and its bad for the industry. Why should anyone, in any industry, be *expected* to work for free?
Are those designers forced to work on those sites, is that the only outlet for design work? They are looking at it as an opportunity to make money and on those particular sites you have to show that you're good enough to get paid for your work. Obviously there are lot of people interested in it on both sides because there are a ton of new contests started daily and dozens on entries for each one. I think it's a great way for designers not only to get experience but they also get to pick and choose what they want to work on when.
Designers are doing this to themselves, the last time I got a quote from a local designer I had to stop from laughing in his face. $300/hour with a quote of $3200 for a logo. Lets see, for that amount I could have 50+ designers all give me mock-ups and then pick and choose which ones I like at a fraction of that price. As the client that's a no brainer.
Depends on what all you think goes into a "design".
Did the people you hire do any opposition research? Did they check to see if a similar idea or concept was already in use? Did they ask what sort of applications the logo would have? Did they test its legibility on different sizes?
You run a risk of using a pirated or unoriginal work from these sites. And the onus isn't on the site for providing the wrk - or even the designer for creating it. It's on you for using it.
We need about 500 people to get on that site and start submitting a ton of logos that are complete rip offs of currently used logos, or logos full of copyrighted images. If 20 or 30 of the clients on this site get cease and desist letters for the "design" they have purchased, it may make people think twice about using it.
Are you serious?
You expect people to work for free in the hopes that they'll eventually get paid?
Would you even treat a plumber this way? How about another type of professional like a doctor or lawyer?
Yes, An architect. or any engineering company. Or anyone who I'd hire for a large design project. I would ask for a proposal.
When I work on a proposal I have to think what are the chances of winning and how much would i make. (I say "I" but typically it is a collective decision) If it is a $1M job and we have a one in four chance we might invest a thousand dolars in the proposal.
Back to designers. If you are looking for a larger job and figure you have a one in 20 chance than why not invest a few hours making a logo? No you would not built a three level web site backed by a DBMS for free but a logo? If it can land you that big job why not.
This article that we're all arguing about isn't referring to an RFP, it's referring to design contests where all work submitted is 'print quality'
That is more akin to asking an architect to draft an entire set of blueprints to-spec and hoping someone likes the work.
And while we're on the subject if you think any less work goes into a well crafted brand identity than into a fully functional website, then that just proves the point that not every joe schmoe off the street understands why design work should be valued. And that people need to be educated on the subject.
There is a huge difference between a proposal and spec work. You're not going to get any logos or concepts in a proposal. You will get a bit of research and similar case studies.
And I'm glad you think that a logo is something that takes only a "few hours" to design. Out of curiosity, what do you think goes into creating a logo?
Most of the amateurs and beginners that submit work for something like this probably regularly receive free instruction and tutoring from professionals on internet bulletin boards and tutorial sites.
What will this do to the free exchange of information and teaching on the internet, if the professionals doing most of the tutoring end up being displaced by the very people they are helping?
And doesn't this kind of fit the definition of low-balling?
ie: stealing job opportunities from pros by working for less than a living wage or below industry standard rates.
What will this do to the free exchange of information and teaching on the internet, if the professionals doing most of the tutoring end up being displaced by the very people they are helping?
And doesn't this kind of fit the definition of low-balling?
ie: stealing job opportunities from pros by working for less than a living wage or below industry standard rates.
Jay-sus christ. Do you have any idea what real designers put into creating a logo? $3200 is on the low end for the actual time and work put in. Quite similar to a 'three level web site backed by a DBMS'.
Why doesn't everybody work that way? I'll get three guys to build me a porch and I'll just pay for the one I like best!