G3 Beige Desktop HD help

[Chef Medeski]

So, how does this work out?

If on the stock IDE cable that is in the computer, I put a HD, can it be more than 137 GB? If it is will only the first 137 GB be usable? Whats this 8GB partition thing?

If I get an ATA Pci Card, will I be able to use more than 137 GB? What about the 8GB partition thing?

Thanks for all the help in advance.

 

[Chef Medeski]

Bump.

 

[x86isslow]

First let me ask you a question: why on earth do you need more than 137Gb of HD space in a computer that is almost a decade old?

 

[yellow]

120GB/137GB is the max you can see.
It's possible that you could partition it on another Mac and meet those requirements. Frankly I'm not sure, mainly for the above question. It may be that it sees any partition as a full volume and even partitioned it wouldn't see more than 120GB.

OS X on non-new-world Macs requires that it be installed in the first 8GB of a partition, which means you'd have to partition the disk into a < 8GB partition, and then as large a partition as possible.

Ultimately, save yourself some money and use a 120GB drive.

 

[Chef Medeski]

120GB/137GB is the max you can see.
It's possible that you could partition it on another Mac and meet those requirements. Frankly I'm not sure, mainly for the above question. It may be that it sees any partition as a full volume and even partitioned it wouldn't see more than 120GB.

OS X on non-new-world Macs requires that it be installed in the first 8GB of a partition, which means you'd have to partition the disk into a < 8GB partition, and then as large a partition as possible.

Ultimately, save yourself some money and use a 120GB drive.

Same money?

I have a 200GB HD.... and its all I got, so I'm saving money by nearly partitioning it.

So, I have to have a maybe 2GB partition and then a 118? Is that right?

 

[gothicx00]

For storage, the Beige G3 is capable of taking any ATAPI/IDE hard disks, provided that the drive's size is within the 28-bit LBA limit. This means a Beige G3 is capable of supporting ATA hard disks of up to 137 GB (228 blocks of 512 bytes each).

So the answer is no. All you will ever get out of the drive is the hard 137gb limit. That LBA limit is in the "bios" it self. The only way that PC users were able to get around that limit was via a BIOS upgrade or to use a BIOS mod that shipped with the drive (a piece of software that basically loads a sub-bios that allows the computer to break that LBA limit).

As I've never heard of anything like that exisiting for the beige G3, sounds like you are stuck buddy. But it still begs the question: why are you still using a computer that ceased sales almost 7 years ago? To be honest, that machine is about as defunct as the old IBM PS/2.

 

[aquajet]

So the answer is no. All you will ever get out of the drive is the hard 137gb limit. That LBA limit is in the "bios" it self. The only way that PC users were able to get around that limit was via a BIOS upgrade or to use a BIOS mod that shipped with the drive (a piece of software that basically loads a sub-bios that allows the computer to break that LBA limit).

As I've never heard of anything like that exisiting for the beige G3, sounds like you are stuck buddy. But it still begs the question: why are you still using a computer that ceased sales almost 7 years ago? To be honest, that machine is about as defunct as the old IBM PS/2.

I'm going to assume you're new to the platform. No such thing as bios on a Mac and the PS/2 is far older than the G3s. Have you actually ever touched a G3, or seen one for that matter?

One way around the 137gb limitation is to add an ATA/66/100/133 card or SATA card. A 66 card could probably be had for cheap on ebay.

 

[fblack]

Ok, you can if you really want to. In my old beige G3 I had alot of peripherals that would not run on USB. They were all ADB. So I had to make my G3 last longer. I upgraded the cpu, ram, and hardrives. I was running OSX jaguar. In order to upgrade HD I used a SIIG ultra ata 133/100 card. It supported OS 8.6 thru OS X. It allowed me to "break the 137GB" barrier, and use large drives. I dont know if they still sell it, but there were others from different manufacturers. You may want to look at Sonnet technologies they used to have one too.

However, you will still have to partition your hard drive to run OSX. Its better if one partition is a little less than the 8gig and that's the one OSX will go on. Its better to put OS 9 on a different partition. If you are looking to run a version of OSX that is not supported by your G3 then you may want to look at Xpostfacto4 over at OWC.

http://eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter/XPostFacto/Framework.cfm?page=XPostFacto.html

good luck

 

[gothicx00]

No such thing as bios on a Mac and the PS/2 is far older than the G3s.

I know that, that is why I said "bios" in quotations. I was referring to the Mac hardware equivalent, a ROM type device requiring flashing to update it. As far as the IBM PS/2, yeah yer right it was probably over kill. I wasn't quite looking for something in the same vintage but more along the lines of equal obselencense.

I didn't mention anything about an ATA card because I wasn't sure one was still in existance that would work on it.

And yes, I've used macs from nearly every generation all the way up to the current Intel based.....

 

[Chef Medeski]

Ohh I forgot to mention it has been upgraded to a G4. 500 Mhz.

I'm using it cause I needed a dirt cheap server for my music and photos. It came with a 60GB HD, but unfortunately I need about 140 for all my stuff.

So, I get this card.

Heres my plan... let me know if any problems. I install OS 9 on my 60GB HD since its already attached, but has no OS on it.

Then, I install the ATA card. I create three partitions on the HD. One is less than 8GB and is for OS X. One is for OS 9 and is what 2GB?... and the final is the remaining space aprox. 190 GB. I then whipe the 60GB HD and set it to slave, so I can use it for backup of pictures and to separate my music libraries (I have all my music in Lossless and AAC320). I have to install OS X using X pacto by hooking it up to my PB through an external bay, since I only have the DVD. And probably will install OS 9 this way too since its easier. Then, I can install my USB PCI card under Tiger.

Have I got it right?

So, the ATA card is absolutely necessary.... unless I trade it for a hardrive under 137?

Then, all I need to do is. Hook up new HD to PB, partition, install OSes. Then set 60GB to slave. And voila.... it should work.

hmmmm.....

 

[RacerX]

You could save yourself the headaches (and you are going to end up with them) by getting a bootable DVD drive for your system to install Mac OS X.

 

[aquajet]

If you've got a firewire card in your beige, you can use target disk mode on your powerbook to install from a DVD. A firewire card would be cheaper than an external case for the hard drive.

Or as RacerX noted, just put in a DVD drive.

 

[Chef Medeski]

If you've got a firewire card in your beige, you can use target disk mode on your powerbook to install from a DVD. A firewire card would be cheaper than an external case for the hard drive.

Or as RacerX noted, just put in a DVD drive.

Well, I have a firewire card but its not installed and I have an external case, so no need to buy anything, I thought it would just be easier this way. Especially since I want to sell the firewire off.

Yeah, and I"m not about to go spend $80 for a DVD drive.

 

[RacerX]

Well, I have a firewire card but its not installed and I have an external case, so no need to buy anything, I thought it would just be easier this way. Especially since I want to sell the firewire off.

Well, the only bootable external option you have with a Beige G3 is SCSI... so unless you have a SCSI DVD drive and a SCSI external case... I doubt you'll be booting that way.

Yeah, and I"m not about to go spend $80 for a DVD drive.

I would hope not! First, not all optical drives are made equal... I highly doubt that you could just run down to the local computer store and buy a new DVD drive that is Mac bootable.

Further, $80 is pretty steep for a DVD drive. I have no idea what is an expectable price for one of these in the PC world... but I can get a DVD/CDRW drive that is Mac bootable for under $40. The DVD drive I have in my Beige G3 was $12... and it is bootable. And without looking too hard, here is a DVD-R/CDRW for way less than $80... and again, it is bootable.

So yeah, don't spend $80 on a DVD drive!

 

[yellow]

I don't see the point in creating a 2GB partition for OS9. Since that's an old-world-Mac, you can't even boot into it on the fly.. so just install OS9 on the same partition as OS X if you really need it.

Just create a <8GB partition for OS X and then leave the rest for your data.

 

[gothicx00]

I have no idea what is an expectable price for one of these in the PC world

I've been tooling around the PC world for a while, and just in case you were wondering, a DVD-ROM drive (no writing capabilities) in the PC world is insanely priced at anything above $20.

And I did a quick search, a SCSI internal DVD drive with no case is around $109. Saw another one for over $400! W-T-F is up with that.

But anyway, what are the requirements for a DVD drive to be bootable for an old Mac? Does it require a drive with all 3 jumper settings? (Master, slave, cable select). Just curious in case anybody knows....

 

[RacerX]

But anyway, what are the requirements for a DVD drive to be bootable for an old Mac? Does it require a drive with all 3 jumper settings? (Master, slave, cable select). Just curious in case anybody knows....

There is something about the drive that makes it bootable (seen by the Mac's ROM or firmware without the need for any additional drivers or software), and the manufacturer needs to set it that way.

Apple isn't alone in this, for years systems like Apples, NeXTs, Suns and SGIs required CD drives that were bootable... and oddly enough, the same drives that are bootable on my Suns and SGIs are also bootable on my Macs.

But that is why going to a Mac outlet is better than going to a PC out let for something like this. And you really don't need "new". Just grab an old used Apple DVD drive. People are usually replacing them with drives that do more, so you can get a DVD drive pretty cheep.

Mine was pulled from an old Blue & White G3 that moved up to a DVD/CDRW drive.



As for the settings, you'll note that your logic board as two internal ATA buses and one internal SCSI bus. One of the ATA buses is dedicated to just the CD drive. It is that bus that you need to put the DVD drive on (set to Master or cable select... I'll have to check on that). If you get an Ultra ATA card, then you can add other things to the second ATA bus on the logic board.

On my system I have the original CD drive on the first bus and the DVD drive on the second, the hard drive is on an Ultra ATA/66 card (which has two buses allowing for four drives).

 

[gothicx00]

Well then, to be honest it sounds like more of a firmware thing to make it bootable, which lends it self to modification. But honestly, I've never heard of a DVD drive being "Mac Bootable," I just figured they all were. I'd be interested to see if somebody tries a modern cheap drive like lite-on and see if it works. If thats the case, I can pretty much guarantee what ever firmware code it needed to be Mac Bootable is defacto standard on all drives now.

In the PC world, all one needs is a BIOS capable of booting from an optical drive. Any old drive will work, including my very first DVD-ROM drive that came in a really old Creative kit. I believe it was generation 2 DVD-ROM, but it very well could have been gen1. 2x Read DVD, 8x Read CD. Crazy huh?