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GoLive vs. Dreamweaver?
- Thread starter dopey220
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Yup, 99% of the leaders in web design hand code (whether they use dreamweaver or not, although most don't as there are much lighter and better text editing apps out there). Dreamweaver generates bloated code, and from what I've seen, Golive does worse. The most powerful editors and what most of the well respected web designers (that use a mac) are BBEdit and Textmate. Textmate is much more powerful IMO and it's text manipulation and customizable snippet/command bundles are just a joy to use.
It's handy to know your way around dreamweaver because it's a skill that a lot of employers look for and I've used it in the past for a long time (mostly whilst learning) but I always hand code and nowadays I prefer to use textmate personally.
As for golive I gave it about a months trial once and from what I remember it offered nothing over dreamweaver and was harder to get the hang of using. I didn't like it.
As for golive I gave it about a months trial once and from what I remember it offered nothing over dreamweaver and was harder to get the hang of using. I didn't like it.
Both produce bad code if you're doing full WYSIWYG.
People seem to prefer Dreamweaver although I've never heard why. I've tried both (although I own a copy of GoLive) and I couldn't get the hang of Macromedia's terrible interface design. Adobe wins hands down there. Although GoLive seems unnecessarily unstable even when doing relatively simple work.
With some tweaking to the preferences and doing a mixture of hand coding and WYSIWYG, GoLive can be coaxed into producing good code, compliant to whatever you specify for the document. It makes some otherwise boring/tedious coding tasks easier, like drag and dropping of images and links, and drag and dropping text and media around within a documents layout. Stuff like that. And it has a decent CSS editor too.
Wait until the release of CS3, where Adobe will be replacing GoLive with Dreamweaver, hopefully using Adobe's famed interface.
People seem to prefer Dreamweaver although I've never heard why. I've tried both (although I own a copy of GoLive) and I couldn't get the hang of Macromedia's terrible interface design. Adobe wins hands down there. Although GoLive seems unnecessarily unstable even when doing relatively simple work.
With some tweaking to the preferences and doing a mixture of hand coding and WYSIWYG, GoLive can be coaxed into producing good code, compliant to whatever you specify for the document. It makes some otherwise boring/tedious coding tasks easier, like drag and dropping of images and links, and drag and dropping text and media around within a documents layout. Stuff like that. And it has a decent CSS editor too.
Wait until the release of CS3, where Adobe will be replacing GoLive with Dreamweaver, hopefully using Adobe's famed interface.
Dreamweaver is one of those apps that was a necessity to create complex designs when table-based layouts were the norm. That's where it got it's big following years ago. There are much better apps for building css-based websites these days.
Most employers think dreamweaver is the standard for web design, but they don't why. I'll say they are pretty clueless about the industry, which is understandable as it does move very fast. I would definitely inform any potential employer that dreamweaver isn't necessary anymore if I were in that situation. I know I'd never want to be forced to use such a bloated app. If an employer is hiring a competent professional, they should allow him/her to use whatever applications he/she prefers.
Sorry for the rant.
It just bothers me that people who don't know much about web design think that dreamweaver and/or golive are the best tools for web design just because they happen to be industry standard. They couldn't be more wrong.
Dreamweaver is one of those apps that was a necessity to create complex designs when table-based layouts were the norm. That's where it got it's big following years ago. There are much better apps for building css-based websites these days.
Most employers think dreamweaver is the standard for web design, but they don't why. I'll say they are pretty clueless about the industry, which is understandable as it does move very fast. I would definitely inform any potential employer that dreamweaver isn't necessary anymore if I were in that situation. I know I'd never want to be forced to use such a bloated app. If an employer is hiring a competent professional, they should allow him/her to use whatever applications he/she prefers.
Sorry for the rant.
I understand here you are coming from. However one of the reasons I continue to use dreamweaver eventhough I hand code is that I love the link chcecking features, immediate rendering, ect. I was also selected to Beta Test HANZO (Dreamweaver CS3), I;m not allowed to speak much on the issue, however I can tell you that I am very impressed with the code that the WYSIWYG puts out, strictly from design mode....
any points?
Yeah, Dreamweaver tends to be the tool of choice, but as the others have said, many web designers hand code using textmate or bbedit.
I'll name one, which is what I use and love. Textmate.
Most of the 3rd party mac text editors feature a live, as you type, webkit engine which is much better than seeing it through dreamweaver's renderer. Textmate in particular has a very powerful bundles feature which lets you easily create powerful commands and snippets that can be written in a variety of languages (ruby, python, shell scripts, etc). There are tons of great plug-ins built in along with many available on the net. As far as features go, it definitely blows dreamweaver out of the water. It can be a little tough for some people to figure out which is why dreamweaver tends to be the choice for those that are a bit less code savvy. Dreamweaver lays all your options out for you at once which makes it look more feature-rich than other editors.janitorC7 said:
Textmate is a hard sell for the mainstream. When you download and run it for the first time, it looks like a very simple text editor with almost no features. But like every great mac application, it's simple on the outside, powerful on the inside. I'll admit I was one of those that downloaded textmate because of all the hype and trashed it 5-10 minutes after playing with it. But after watching some of the webcasts on macromates.com, I was sold. I bet if I spent 20 minutes showing off the capabilities of textmate to anyone who hand-codes, they would switch immediately whether they use bbedit, dreamweaver, or subethaedit.
dreamweaver has some pretty good site management tools.
like having a remote/local site and uploading as changes are made, tracking changes etc.
also making minor/major coding changes with a find/replace tool is a HUGE time saver.
example: ill design a css menu but leave the hrefs blank until I create the pages they link to because Im not sure of the exact names until later, and i might have 12 pages that all have this same menu.
to add the href to a particular menu item on each and every page, would be a task, but find/replace that line of code in different searches, is a nice feature.
like having a remote/local site and uploading as changes are made, tracking changes etc.
also making minor/major coding changes with a find/replace tool is a HUGE time saver.
example: ill design a css menu but leave the hrefs blank until I create the pages they link to because Im not sure of the exact names until later, and i might have 12 pages that all have this same menu.
to add the href to a particular menu item on each and every page, would be a task, but find/replace that line of code in different searches, is a nice feature.
There are a lot of features Dreamweaver has that make it far more useful than a text editor for a lot of people. People who don't understand that probably shouldn't knock it.
Textmate has SVN support, which is 100x better than FTP or dreamweaver's implementation of tracking changes.
Again, textmate (along with a lot of editors) have find and replace and even grep support which is much more powerful.
I'll say it again. Dreamweaver lays everything out so they are easy to find. Apps like Textmate have the same features, only more powerful. You just have to know where to look. Dreamweaver is great for those who aren't too technical and want everything done for them by clicking through menus.
decksnap said:
I've been using dreamweaver since version 2 was first released (in the late 90's?) so I am definitely aware of the features it has. Dreamweaver was my favorite web design/development app for years until I learned css well and started to handcode. Then I realized there are much better apps out there when you are designing sites with css rather than tables.
Dreamweaver is still great for CSS, and still a better choice for thousands of professionals. I just get annoyed by the people who try to suggest that it is in some way amateur to use Dreamweaver, when the whole point of the program is to let you do the same stuff, only faster, so you have time to work on more important things.
It is the elitism of the CSS bunch these days, I'm affraid. The attitude is rife through the girly people that group together in IRC rooms to discus how idiotic people are that use dreamweaver because the code is bloated.
I use dreamweaver, I hand edit the code to take anything over bloated away.
It takes as long as photoshop to launch and a few seconds for a text file to open. It has a bunch of palettes and toolbars as if it were an image editing app. You don't call that bloat? And hand-coding in dreamweaver is great and all, but most people don't even do that.
I'm not trying to be an elitist. I'm just trying to help people realize there are better apps out there IF you do happen to hand code. Just as Mac users try to convince PC users that there's a better OS out there. Then again, PC users think Mac users are elitists for thinking Mac OS is better than Windows. So maybe you do have a point.
I prefer GoLive. Very close to the feel of hand coding - but with some great automation to speed things along. Looking forward to CS3.
I didnt know Textmate was so powerful.
unfortunately at work, Dreamweaver is in.
but I dont use its WYSIWYG aspects, since they totally suck.
example: css popout menus either DONT even render in DW, or render incorrectly. WHY!? i dont know or care, but F12 and I see in firefox it looks fine.
w/e i get paid to work like a slug.
on my own site, its all CSS. i used DW to write the code, but not to see what the code does visually.
im switching, just not at work.
unfortunately at work, Dreamweaver is in.
but I dont use its WYSIWYG aspects, since they totally suck.
example: css popout menus either DONT even render in DW, or render incorrectly. WHY!? i dont know or care, but F12 and I see in firefox it looks fine.
w/e i get paid to work like a slug.
on my own site, its all CSS. i used DW to write the code, but not to see what the code does visually.
im switching, just not at work.
It takes as long as photoshop to launch and a few seconds for a text file to open. It has a bunch of palettes and toolbars as if it were an image editing app. You don't call that bloat? And hand-coding in dreamweaver is great and all, but most people don't even do that.
I'm not trying to be an elitist. I'm just trying to help people realize there are better apps out there IF you do happen to hand code. Just as Mac users try to convince PC users that there's a better OS out there. Then again, PC users think Mac users are elitists for thinking Mac OS is better than Windows. So maybe you do have a point.
I wasn't really calling you an elitist, and the application itself is bloated (although, It opens virtually instantly for me). It's just that there is a growing number of people thinking that to be a good designer, you have to hand code and you can't use dreamweaver. That is the ethos I'm against, simply because it isn't true.
You don't have to hand code to be a good designer. But I'd say you do to be a good "web" designer. IMO, a web designer's job consists of much more than just being able to make a nice looking site. A solid understanding of HTML and CSS (and some would argue javascript as well) is a must. These are building blocks for building a website's interface.
I was talking about web designers, of course. I could hand code full sites, if I wanted to waste loads of time, so I just edit the code and any crap code goes and gets replaced with better code.
TextMate - which I sometimes use myself also generates some code doesn't it
