Good Starting point for a PC??

[LookToWindward]

Hi,

I'm thinking of getting a used PC, it main use would be gaming and trouble shooting Mac graphics cards.

I've been on looking on Ebay and I'm totally swamped with different machines and non giving the full spec, so I don't know for instance if it will support the power requirements of a GPU.

I'd like one with Graphics on the motherboard at least 1 x 16 PCI slot for the GPU.

I don't mind upgrading the RAM and I have plenty of HDDs/SSDs.The CPU doesn't matter too much, about the same power as a Mac Pro (Xeon) would be fine.

I just need a good starting point in terms of the case and power supply.

I've look at old Dell machines and they look as if they might be what I'm looking for.

Can anyone recommend a good starting machine, Dell or otherwise.

Thanks a lot
Dave

 

[avro707]

about the same power as a Mac Pro (Xeon) would be fine.

Not hard to better most of the Macs (even the Silicon ones).

Case: Fractal Design Define 7 XL (same as what Puget Systems uses for their workstations)
PSU: https://www.mwave.com.au/product/se...0-titanium-fully-modular-power-supply-ac46126

Those would be good starting points.

Do you want an off-the-shelf machine to upgrade or build it yourself? You can probably do excellent building your own machine from the ground up.

 

[LookToWindward]

Not hard to better most of the Macs (even the Silicon ones).

Case: Fractal Design Define 7 XL (same as what Puget Systems uses for their workstations)
PSU: https://www.mwave.com.au/product/se...0-titanium-fully-modular-power-supply-ac46126

Those would be good starting points.

Do you want an off-the-shelf machine to upgrade or build it yourself? You can probably do excellent building your own machine from the ground up.

I think it's a great box, but its a lot more than I need, I should have said "light gaming", I play games on my Mac Pro 5,1 with an RX 580 at the moment and it's way more than I need.

I was thinking of getting a used machine (much like the Mac Pro) and adding the GPU, RAM and whatever else I need. A hobbyist machine perhaps is a better way of describing what I mean. Something like this:

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Would do but I'm don't know if the power supply will be good enough for a GPU.

Cheers
Dave


All the Best
Dave

 

[avro707]

Would do but I'm don't know if the power supply will be good enough for a GPU.

240w wouldn't cut it I suspect.

Back in the old days I had much more beefy PSU than that in the PCs I used to build.

 

[hippopotamusglorypig]

I say this only half-jokingly, but there is nothing stopping you from strapping a second PSU on top of a cheap office computer solely to power the GPU. But generally speaking, it will probably be easier (and more fun) to build your own rather than attempt to adapt a pre-built to a new purpose.

As an aside, are you sure a Mac GPU is even compatible with a non-Apple machine? They look fairly proprietary.

 

[LookToWindward]

I say this only half-jokingly, but there is nothing stopping you from strapping a second PSU on top of a cheap office computer solely to power the GPU. But generally speaking, it will probably be easier (and more fun) to build your own rather than attempt to adapt a pre-built to a new purpose.

As an aside, are you sure a Mac GPU is even compatible with a non-Apple machine? They look fairly proprietary.

Yeah, I had considered this and I've done it in the past but it's a bit on the dangerous side as the main PSU will usually shut down if it senses a problem whereas the second PSU won't!

AFAIK, most GPUs can be used "as is" on a Mac but without a native boot screen, they can also be flashed to support Mac natively so you get a native boot screen. If you look on ebay, you will see RX 580s for sale for around 80 euors, but the Mac version is usually more like 180 euros. The only difference between these GPUs is the firmware. There are service companies that charge 50 to 100 euros to flash your GPU.

For Instance, see: https://www.techpowerup.com/download/ati-atiflash/

I don't want to spend a lot of money on this, there are plenty of used PCs for around the 100 to 200 Euro mark, all I need is a half way decent motherboard with on-board graphics, SATA, USB, Ethernet, PCI slots and a good rated power supply. I wondering if a Dell server might be the answer, at least it's easy to look at the specs for a Dell.

 

[hippopotamusglorypig]

Yeah, I had considered this and I've done it in the past but it's a bit on the dangerous side as the main PSU will usually shut down if it senses a problem whereas the second PSU won't!

AFAIK, most GPUs can be used "as is" on a Mac but without a native boot screen, they can also be flashed to support Mac natively so you get a native boot screen. If you look on ebay, you will see RX 580s for sale for around 80 euors, but the Mac version is usually more like 180 euros. The only difference between these GPUs is the firmware. There are service companies that charge 50 to 100 euros to flash your GPU.

For Instance, see: https://www.techpowerup.com/download/ati-atiflash/

I don't want to spend a lot of money on this, there are plenty of used PCs for around the 100 to 200 Euro mark, all I need is a half way decent motherboard with on-board graphics, SATA, USB, Ethernet, PCI slots and a good rated power supply. I wondering if a Dell server might be the answer, at least it's easy to look at the specs for a Dell.

Would such a system even have a spare PCIe cable, I wonder?

I don't think this would drastically change your calculus, but you can find motherboards with embedded (potato) CPUs (eg: ASRock J3355B-ITX) that have a PCIe slot. All you need to add is storage, (SO-DIMM) memory, and a power supply.

Though at a certain point, you are probably better off just finding the cheapest CPU you can find and a refurbished h series motherboard.

And if all you want is PC gaming for relatively cheap, it's hard to beat a Steam Deck, especially as they are currently on sale.

 

[LookToWindward]

Would such a system even have a spare PCIe cable, I wonder?

I don't think this would drastically change your calculus, but you can find motherboards with embedded (potato) CPUs (eg: ASRock J3355B-ITX) that have a PCIe slot. All you need to add is storage, (SO-DIMM) memory, and a power supply.

Though at a certain point, you are probably better off just finding the cheapest CPU you can find and a refurbished h series motherboard.

And if all you want is PC gaming for relatively cheap, it's hard to beat a Steam Deck, especially as they are currently on sale.

The main purpose would be to be able to Flash my own GPU and to test other PCI boards. The Mac doesn't have the same amount of low level utilities as the PC

 

[vladi]

Not hard to better most of the Macs (even the Silicon ones).

Case: Fractal Design Define 7 XL (same as what Puget Systems uses for their workstations)
PSU: https://www.mwave.com.au/product/se...0-titanium-fully-modular-power-supply-ac46126

Those would be good starting points.

Do you want an off-the-shelf machine to upgrade or build it yourself? You can probably do excellent building your own machine from the ground up.

You spilled the beans man! Fractal Design Define are the best cases on the market hands down. Define XL R2 is great sound proofed case

 

[LookToWindward]

You spilled the beans man! Fractal Design Define are the best cases on the market hands down. Define XL R2 is great sound proofed case

I totally agree! The only problem is that the cheapest case is double my budget for a whole machine!

 

[hippopotamusglorypig]

The main purpose would be to be able to Flash my own GPU and to test other PCI boards. The Mac doesn't have the same amount of low level utilities as the PC

I'm making the assumption you're in Spain, but you can find the i3-10100, an H510M motherboard, and a non-modular 600w PSU on Amazon for €174.71 - all sold as new by Amazon. If you skip the case, all you really need is storage and RAM. (And an operating system, of course.)

 

[avro707]

As an aside, are you sure a Mac GPU is even compatible with a non-Apple machine? They look fairly proprietary.

Only the MPX modules are custom, most of the others people use are just off the shelf PC radeons of some form or another, the only main limiting factor is the length of them - too long and they don’t fit.

Another problem is compatibility in later than Monterey OS. RX580 is safe but later models won’t work with certain older machines.

 

[LookToWindward]

I'm making the assumption you're in Spain, but you can find the i3-10100, an H510M motherboard, and a non-modular 600w PSU on Amazon for €174.71 - all sold as new by Amazon. If you skip the case, all you really need is storage and RAM. (And an operating system, of course.)

Yes, I'm in Spain, I looked at the I3 and motherboard, 16GB RAM for €216, which is a pretty good price. I've looked at power supples too, can't see a non-modular PSU but there are some there that would probably work for under €50. I have SATA drives already and the OS is no problem.

Add the case and cables, I'm guessing another €100, so the total cost would be around €320 to €350 which is still cheap for a new machine.

I suppose I could buy a cheap PC with a good case (and maybe PSU) and put the new kit into it.....

 

[hippopotamusglorypig]

Yes, I'm in Spain, I looked at the I3 and motherboard, 16GB RAM for €216, which is a pretty good price. I've looked at power supples too, can't see a non-modular PSU but there are some there that would probably work for under €50. I have SATA drives already and the OS is no problem.

Add the case and cables, I'm guessing another €100, so the total cost would be around €320 to €350 which is still cheap for a new machine.

I suppose I could buy a cheap PC with a good case (and maybe PSU) and put the new kit into it.....

Ah, the one I was looking at doesn't seem to be in stock but here's a similar sort of thing (Corsair CV550 No Modular, CV Series). RAM might be better bought used on eBay to keep the cost down and you really don't need a fancy case.

That PSU is not exceptional by any means, to be clear. But it should at least provide adequate power without exploding at the least cost.

Edit: Here's another: MSI MAG A650BN

 

[LookToWindward]

Ah, the one I was looking at doesn't seem to be in stock but here's a similar sort of thing (Corsair CV550 No Modular, CV Series). RAM might be better bought used on eBay to keep the cost down and you really don't need a fancy case.

That PSU is not exceptional by any means, to be clear. But it should at least provide adequate power without exploding at the least cost.

Edit: Here's another: MSI MAG A650BN

Thanks a lot for your help, I've added the PSU to my basket. I'll check RAM prices on Ebay.

I actually have a Mac Pro 4,1 which was damaged on delivery, I got my money back, but they didn't collect it, so it's still sitting here gathering dust. I was going to strip it and sell the parts on Ebay. I could maybe use this case and PSU? Although I know these PSU are not standard so might be better to sell it and use the money on a PC. At a guess I'd get around €80 for the PSU and the same again for the processor tray.

You've given me a lot to think about and a lot more options, I appreciate it. thanks again

Check this out:

 

[hippopotamusglorypig]

Thanks a lot for your help, I've added the PSU to my basket. I'll check RAM prices on Ebay.

I actually have a Mac Pro 4,1 which was damaged on delivery, I got my money back, but they didn't collect it, so it's still sitting here gathering dust. I was going to strip it and sell the parts on Ebay. I could maybe use this case and PSU? Although I know these PSU are not standard so might be better to sell it and use the money on a PC. At a guess I'd get around €80 for the PSU and the same again for the processor tray.

You've given me a lot to think about and a lot more options, I appreciate it. thanks again

Check this out:

I wouldn't assume the Mac Pro uses standard motherboard standoffs so there might be a hazard of shorting if it makes contact with the case in some weird way. Likewise, the PSU will almost surely be proprietary.

And if you get the urge to upgrade components, you're much better off with standard, interoperable parts.

Edit: You can check the QVL list online for RAM compatibility, if you want to be extra sure. And buying used on eBay goes for all parts, by the way. You get a much better deal / higher specs if you hunt around.