Great machines - Shame about the graphics - ARM & The Future?

[Piggie]

My above title comments, in all honestly could have been leveled at most/All Apple machines over the past couple of decades.
In fact this is the single reason which has stopped me from going all in on Apple machines as much as I would otherwise have loved to.
The thought of paying £1000 / £2000 and having a computer with basically low power laptop graphics chip/power is simply something I personally could not accept.

And I accept this is 100% down to Steve Jobs not personally having any strong interest in this area of computing.
If Steve had always been a "Gamer" and loved entertainment titles, the history of Apple in this regard would totally different.
But that's the past..................

So, now we have Apple ARM based Silicon, and Apple now have the freedom to stretch their wings in any direction they wish.

Given this new found freedom, do you think Apple will finally kick of the past when it came to not taking GPU's and Entertainment seriously.
Still leave it to AMD (as they won't use Nvidea) to handle this?

Or might there be a chance that finally, after literally decades, and given they have total freedom now to follow any path they like.
We might, at long long last see Apple take this side of computing seriously and put effort into competing with AMD and Nvidia in this up till now ignored area of computer chip design?

Many seem to be thinking Apple make have it's own separate GPU chip to fit inside higher end macs next year.
Now, of course I don't think anyone is expecting a RTX 3090 with 28 billion transistors and many many Thousands of various GPU cores level of chip from Apple next year
But they could make a small start along that path, with a goal in perhaps 5+ year to reach the current leaders PC machines can enjoy.

So, Given their freedom do you think they will expand into this direction and aim to have the best consumer CPU's and GPU's to offer Apple customers.
Or do you think the concept of not trying too hard with graphics, and "it's good enough" is so deeply ingrained into the companies core mentality that even with their new freedom it's simply not going to happen?

 

[StellarVixen]

It is going to happen, I assume this is why Apple is partnering with Imagination. Now, I don’t know if they are gonna target gaming market or not, I’m just 99 percent sure they are gonna offer us more powerful graphics.

 

[matrix07]

Your way of thinking is so upside down.

 

[Piggie]

It is going to happen, I assume this is why Apple is partnering with Imagination. Now, I don’t know if they are gonna target gaming market or not, I’m just 99 percent sure they are gonna offer us more powerful graphics.

Thanks for your viewpoint.
I sincerely hope you are correct in that they do have serious plans for improvement in this area that has not been much of a focus form them in the past.
There is no reason for the market to be as it is.
As I say, if Steve himself had different views, right now today, Apple could be the top choice of those who wanted the very best machine for entertainment uses.
However, as I said, no point in looking backwards. Now it's time to look forwards, so again, I hope you are right in major improvement are going to be coming this way in the not too distant future as I'd love to see what Apple is capable of if they decide it's an area to move more towards

 

[Boil]

I want to see Apple do two things:

1 - Fork Blender & integrate it with Final Cut Pro X & Logic Pro X, creating a comprehensive DCC (Digital Content Creation) software suite.

2 - Release an xMac, guts of the forthcoming new (smaller) Apple Silicon, but in a more affordable chassis. Or maybe a re-envisioning of the Mac Cube?

 

[Piggie]

Your way of thinking is so upside down.

It's a honest view of what I've seen over the past couple+ decades.
If you feel my initial posting was fundamentally wrong, then I'd love to hear how you see things from your point of view

 

[matrix07]

It's a honest view of what I've seen over the past couple+ decades.
If you feel my initial posting was fundamentally wrong, then I'd love to hear how you see things from your point of view

My point of view? Anyone who proclaimed a laptop that can do this

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330573313249316868

..with no sound and no fan to be “shame about graphic“ is not worth discussing about.

.. and to throw shade on entry level graphic with “RTX 3090” while intentionally omit 350 W power requirement is simply insincere.

 

[4sallypat]

It's a honest view of what I've seen over the past couple+ decades.
If you feel my initial posting was fundamentally wrong, then I'd love to hear how you see things from your point of view

Based on Apple's history, they never really got into gaming and high end graphics - they left that to the old workhorse workstations that had mainframes for programmers / developers and for normal folk PCs on the business end.

Apple has been traditionally more for the creative artist and educational ease of use sector that Windows and other platforms can't achieve.

However if I want to use heavy graphics intense gaming (first person shooting), or my relaxing Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 flying planes around the world, I use my Windows PC desktop w/ triple monitors, $300 RX1660 8G graphics card, 32GB RAM, dual NVMe SSD, surround sound ATC real time traffic and 10GBe.

 

[Piggie]

My point of view? Anyone who proclaimed a laptop that can do this

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330573313249316868

..with no sound and no fan to be “shame about graphic“ is not worth discussing about.

.. and to throw shade on entry level graphic with “RTX 3090” while intentionally omit 350 W power requirement is simply insincere.

Thanks.
I'm fully aware of how amazing the new M1 machines are given their size, power etc.
I'm not saying they can't run any games, or can't play some modern games at some level of setting.

Or course I'm not expecting a 350w RTX 3090 in a 10w entry level laptop, that would be silly

From early posts by others on these forums, the M1 GPU is beating a GTX 1050 Ti card (From 4 years ago) Nvidia, which is of course great news

M1 Chip Beats GeForce GTX 1050 Ti and Radeon RX 560 for Graphics Performance

Apple's M1 processor often surpasses the graphics performance of desktop GPUs, including the Nvidia GeForce GTX 1050 Ti and AMD Radeon RX 560,...

www.macrumors.com

And I'm not taking anything away from the new M1 machines at all in what they can do.

However, face facts the 4 year old GTX 1050 Ti card is nothing when put up against a modern high end car from Nvidia or AMD. We all understand that

Hence my sincere hope that now Apple controls the silicon 100%, in their desktop class machines they may consider trying to move more towards what the leaders of the industry can offer in the consumer GPU department, and not continue to not be that interested in any significant push in that direction.

 

[Piggie]

Based on Apple's history, they never really got into gaming and high end graphics - they left that to the old workhorse workstations that had mainframes for programmers / developers and for normal folk PCs on the business end.

Apple has been traditionally more for the creative artist and educational ease of use sector that Windows and other platforms can't achieve.

However if I want to use heavy graphics intense gaming (first person shooting), or my relaxing Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 flying planes around the world, I use my Windows PC desktop w/ triple monitors, $300 RX1660 8G graphics card, 32GB RAM, dual NVMe SSD, surround sound ATC real time traffic and 10GBe.

Indeed.
It's just a shame you are forced to have to do this, to experience the performance you'd like to enjoy.
Hence why I really hope this decades old weak area, now they are free from the constraints of what a 3rd part can supply them with, this can finally starts to change.

It's of course a Chicken and Egg problem. Devs won't focus such titles on Apple due to Apple's GPU side of things, hence consumers don't buy those machines for are of the market, so Apple see's no reason to cater for it.

I'm 100% confident if Apple were to produce something amazing in this sector then the Devs would love to work with such a machines/s and then the consumers would gravitate towards them also.

 

[matrix07]

Indeed.
It's just a shame you are forced to have to do this, to experience the performance you'd like to enjoy.
Hence why I really hope this decades old weak area, now they are free from the constraints of what a 3rd part can supply them with, this can finally starts to change.

It's of course a Chicken and Egg problem. Devs won't focus such titles on Apple due to Apple's GPU side of things, hence consumers don't buy those machines for are of the market, so Apple see's no reason to cater for it.

I'm 100% confident if Apple were to produce something amazing in this sector then the Devs would love to work with such a machines/s and then the consumers would gravitate towards them also.

That’s great but why “shame about graphic” though, when M1 graphic is already the “fastest” integrated graphic TODAY?
What the shame about being “fastest” while consume less power?

Could Apple make something that beat RTX 3090 today? IMO, you bet! Will they want to consider the thermal cost? I don’t think so.
Could they make something as powerful as RTX 3090 but fit in a Mac Pro? Well, we have to wait and see, won’t we?

 

[StellarVixen]

Thanks for your viewpoint.
I sincerely hope you are correct in that they do have serious plans for improvement in this area that has not been much of a focus form them in the past.
There is no reason for the market to be as it is.
As I say, if Steve himself had different views, right now today, Apple could be the top choice of those who wanted the very best machine for entertainment uses.
However, as I said, no point in looking backwards. Now it's time to look forwards, so again, I hope you are right in major improvement are going to be coming this way in the not too distant future as I'd love to see what Apple is capable of if they decide it's an area to move more towards

You fail to realize that most probably cause of Mac not having powerful graphics is form factor. Apple’s obsession with “thinner” and “lighter” didn’t go well with powerful, hot, power hungry GPUs. Look at the “gaming” laptops. Apple would never, ever build something like that.

Also, remember the feud with Nvidia. What Apple wanted Nvidia couldn’t deliver. If that didn’t go the way it went, we could have had some Macs with powerful GPUs (example: Razer Blade Stealth, good GPU in small package). But, due to Apple’s or Nvidia’s hubris, they never came to good terms again, so we never got to see something like that.


Now, with ARM, the story is different. I think Apple is gonna try to do what they have been unable to do so far: have powerful graphics which are not in contrast with their design language. However, we will see.

 

[Piggie]

That’s great but why “shame about graphic” though, when M1 graphic is already the “fastest” integrated graphic TODAY?
What the shame about being “fastest” while consume less power?

Could Apple make something that beat RTX 3090 today? IMO, you bet! Will they want to consider the thermal cost? I don’t think so.
Could they make something as powerful as RTX 3090 but fit in a Mac Pro? Well, we have to wait and see, won’t we?

I used the term "Shame" as that's been, amounst many many articles and statements I've ready over literally decades about Apple Machines.
Amazing build quality, Great OS, Superb CPU Performance, Shame about the poor graphics chip.
Along with the holding onto the 5400rpm drive way way way too long it's been their constant single weak point.

And for me, and I'm sure others (not everyone of course) but I'm sure many others, that's a shame.
And I'm genuinely hoping, given all we know and have said, this can, and will, over the next X number of years be something that can be left behind, and we can all enjoy major improvements in this area.

In some levels in laptops, though of course we all understand laptops have to be tradeoffs due to weight, heat. power.
but more-so on the desktop, where power and cooling are almost a non issue.
Or they should be a non-issue given a good design.

 

[Piggie]

You fail to realize that most probably cause of Mac not having powerful graphics is form factor. Apple’s obsession with “thinner” and “lighter” didn’t go well with powerful GPUs. Look at the “gaming” laptops. Apple would never, ever build something like that.

Also, remember the feud with Nvidia. What Apple wanted Nvidia couldn’t deliver.


Now, with ARM, the story is different. I think Apple is gonna try to do what they have been unable to do so far: have powerful graphics which are not in contrast with their design language. However, we will see.

Dare I suggest the BIGGEST reason for the problems with design and obsession with such over it's function has now thankfully left the company.
And I will admit, even though it's not been that long since this this UK problem left, Apple seems to significantly improved many of it's products.
The future now he's gone is looking a lot brighter IMHO

 

[torncanvas]

Apple will be able to make an impressive GPU with roughly 50W of TDP, which is about how much room they have on the MacBook Pro 16. That tends to get you about a 1650Ti, which they’re already within spitting distance of even at less than 10W. And they can certainly scale the performance knee higher.

I could see them matching a 2080 Max-Q, but at 50W instead of 90W, or maybe even 40W.

I think the big question is if they can scale up to 250-350W. It’s not as simple as just adding more cores and sending more power. But given how much they’ve optimized the M1 for video editing, they have a strong incentive to at least try.

 

[Hoo Doo Dude]

Not much to respond to as your post is all huge generalities based on assumptions without foundation and no data. So you don't think that for vague reasons you can't articulate clearly. Others who have looked at actual performance and have great experience disagree and find the new machines not lacking and have every reason to believe upper end models will perform even better. As far as all that gibberish about Apple never having been seriously in the graphics game, well, that's just not born out by the facts.

 

[thenewperson]

I think a lot of you are going to be continually disappointed in how much Apple still values making thins thinner + lighter even with Jony Ive gone.

 

[Piggie]

I think a lot of you are going to be continually disappointed in how much Apple still values making thins thinner + lighter even with Jony Ive gone.

Well Phones had gotten thicker in recent years as it was getting silly.
I recall so many many people, even on these forums continually begging for Apple to stop it, fit bigger batteries etc.
I'm not hearing any real complaints these days due to the phone becoming thicker.

 

[Piggie]

Not much to respond to as your post is all huge generalities based on assumptions without foundation and no data. So you don't think that for vague reasons you can't articulate clearly. Others who have looked at actual performance and have great experience disagree and find the new machines not lacking and have every reason to believe upper end models will perform even better. As far as all that gibberish about Apple never having been seriously in the graphics game, well, that's just not born out by the facts.

1: I'm not complaining at all about the performance of the new M1 Machines.

2: I disagree totally with your remark stating that Apple not being serious about high end graphics performance is incorrect.

 

[Hoo Doo Dude]

1: I'm not complaining at all about the performance of the new M1 Machines.

2: I disagree totally with your remark stating that Apple not being serious about high end graphics performance is incorrect.

Great, two nameless self appointed experts disagreeing on an online forum. That should make things clear as mud.

 

[Strangedream]

If you want the best graphics from an Apple laptop you'd have to go with their 16-inch models. Apple always cheaps out in terms of GPU anyways.

The real shame is that the M1 doesn't seem to support eGPU (yet).

 

[Jimmy James]

The graphics performance is a multiple better. You’re waiting for a higher end machine release.

This is like complaining about the towing capacity of a car, which has just been doubled, when you need a work truck.

 

[Ethosik]

I am not sure I follow the letdown here. The systems this chip replaced were all iGPU to begin with. Which the new Apple Silicon beats the crap out of any iGPU in existence, even matching the GTX 1050Ti levels which is still the most popular graphics card on Steam Survey is speaking volumes. These systems never included a dedicated GPU, so lets hold off on the disappointment until the higher end 13", iMac, 16" MBP and Mac Pro are updated that USED to have dGPUs.

 

[Piggie]

Great, two nameless self appointed experts disagreeing on an online forum. That should make things clear as mud.

That made me laugh, thanks for that

Honestly I don't even regard it as an argument.
I would be shocked if anyone who had followed Apple for many years/decades would ever state as a fact that Apple had ever been interested in the high end graphics performance market.
I can't imagine that even being up for debate, it's simply a fact anyone should agree with.

They generally use mobile GPU chipsets even in the desktop machines due to power and heat reasons.
Combined with the fact they are not, or have not been interested in that sector of the market.

The new M1 Machines look amazing in this dept, so I'm hoping, as I've said a number of times in this thread.
Now they are able to design, develop and manufacture their own hardware, this area will be dramatically improves across the entire range going forward.

 

[cesarvog]

I believe it would have been silly for Apple to try to tackle two problems at once. Remember that on a recent interview it was said that it took them nearly a decade to get where they are now (CPU wise). Once this problem is considered solved, I can see Apple going for the GPU in the next few years. They certainly proved outsiders they are capable of...
Just my 2 cents.