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theorist9

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I have a 2019 iMac running MacOS Monterey 12.5. I purchased a SanDisk Extreme USB-C 3.2 Gen 2 portable SSD to use as an external backup. It's spontaneously disconnecting from both the TB3 port and the USB-A port.

This could be due to a bad cable or a bad device (I only have this issue with the SanDisk SSD, not with either of my two Seagate HDDs; all three three are bus-powered), but I recall there was an issue with external devices spontaneously disconnecting with Monterey 12.1. Has that been fixed?
 
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chown33

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Is the USB-A port supplying power to the SSD? Or does the SSD have a supplementary power connector that powers it?

AFAIK, USB ports still have a limit on how much power they can supply. If a device happens to briefly take more power than the port itself can supply, that can put a glitch on the power lines, and the device might do a reset, or a partial reset. Using the supplementary power jack to supply power virtually eliminates this glitching as a possibility.

You can use System Info to tell you what the max power demands of any USB device is. If it's close to the limit for a port, then you should consider supplementary power.

And yes, it could indeed by a USB-C to USB-A adapter. It could even be any other element in the chain between the SSD and the iMac, such as a flaky cable.
 
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theorist9

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Is the USB-A port supplying power to the SSD? Or does the SSD have a supplementary power connector that powers it?

AFAIK, USB ports still have a limit on how much power they can supply. If a device happens to briefly take more power than the port itself can supply, that can put a glitch on the power lines, and the device might do a reset, or a partial reset. Using the supplementary power jack to supply power virtually eliminates this glitching as a possibility.

You can use System Info to tell you what the max power demands of any USB device is. If it's close to the limit for a port, then you should consider supplementary power.

And yes, it could indeed by a USB-C to USB-A adapter. It could even be any other element in the chain between the SSD and the iMac, such as a flaky cable.
Yes, it's bus-powered, and thus I was wondering about the power issue myself. But since the SSD was idling at the time, isn't that unlikely to be the explanation? There is no supplementary power jack (bus-powered only).

EDIT: Nevermind, the device just also disconneted when plugged into the TB3 port (this was while running a backup, but TB3 supplies 15W, so it shouldn't be a power issue). So it's either a bad cable or that Monterey disconnection issue I read about but thought was fixed. Since I can't delete the thread, I'll edit my original post accordingly.

What's confusing to me is that, even though it's plugged into the TB3 port, it still only registers under the USB section (under Thunderbolt/USB4 it says "No devices connected" for each of the two ports, even though I've got a monitor in one port and this device in the other), and says the available power is only 4.5 W (900 mA @ 5 V):

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1662690870856.png

1662690769479.png
 
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theorist9

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That's likely because its a USB drive, not Thunderbolt.
It sounds like you're saying that, even though it's plugged into the TB port, because it's a USB device, it's routed internally through the Mac's USB 3.1 bus, and thus shows up there in Sys Info. If so, then how does it attain 10 Gbps? [Devices plugged directly into the USB 3.1 ports are limited to 5 Gbps.]
 

Gymnut

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I'm running 12.5.1 and can confirm I've been dealing with the disconnect issues with bus-powered drives(Sandisk and OWC Envoy), and that's over both USB and Thunderbolt. I've connected them both to the back of the M1 Mini and to a OWC Thunderbolt dock with no change. Curiously, I also have two external drives that are not bus-powered and they've been fine.
 
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theorist9

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I'm running 12.5.1 and can confirm I've been dealing with the disconnect issues with bus-powered drives(Sandisk and OWC Envoy), and that's over both USB and Thunderbolt. I've connected them both to the back of the M1 Mini and to a OWC Thunderbolt dock with no change. Curiously, I also have two external drives that are not bus-powered and they've been fine.
Thanks. It is curious that, when you plug the drives into the wall-powered ports on the OWC TB Dock, you still have an issue, but when the drives themselves are wall-powered, you don't.

In your reading, have you noticed if this is also an issue with folks running 12.5 on Intel Macs?
 

svenmany

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Jun 19, 2011
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I'm on 12.5.1 running an Intel MacBook Pro. I have disconnect issues with my bus powered drive when waking from sleep. I used to have disconnect issues with my wall powered drives, but I don't believe I've seen that since upgrading to 12.5.
 
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Gymnut

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Thanks. It is curious that, when you plug the drives into the wall-powered ports on the OWC TB Dock, you still have an issue, but when the drives themselves are wall-powered, you don't.

In your reading, have you noticed if this is also an issue with folks running 12.5 on Intel Macs?
Yeah, it seems to be affecting both M1 and Intel Macs mainly on Monterey. I don't use the bus-powered drives a whole lot so I can't say at what update broke this for me. It's definitely annoying but something I hope Apple gets sorted out.
 

theorist9

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USB 3.2 Gen 2 supports 10 Gps.
You misunderstood my point. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to list devices plugged into a TB3 port under the Mac's USB 3.1 bus, just because they're USB devices. Specifically, and precisely because they are USB 3.2 Gen 2, they get 10 Gbps when plugged into the TB3 port. Yet they can't actually be making use of that 3.1 bus because, being 3.1 (aka 3.2 Gen 1), it's limited to 5 Gbps. So why list them under a bus they can't be using?
 
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HDFan

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Jun 30, 2007
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So why list them under a bus they can't be using?

You misunderstood my point.

I'm saying it doesn't make sense to list devices plugged into a TB3 port under the Mac's USB 3.1 bus, just because they're USB devices. Specifically, and precisely because they are USB 3.2 Gen 2, they get 10 Gbps when plugged into the TB3 port. Yet they can't actually be making use of that 3.1 bus because, being 3.1 (aka 3.2 Gen 1), it's limited to 5 Gbps. So why list them under a bus they can't be using?

Let's try again. You aren't connecting to a Thunderbolt port as such but to a USB-C port that supports, among other things, Thunderbolt. USB-C ports can also support USB, displays and other things. So when you connect a device:

1. MacOS senses what protocol to use to connect - USB, Thunderbolt, Display Port, etc.
2. It then assigns that stream to the appropriate protocol hardware/software handler.

So if you have a display, USB devices and thunderbolt devices connected to a thunderbolt dock:

1. The USB devices will be routed to the USB hardware/software
2. The thunderbolt devices will be routed to the thunderbolt hardware/software
3. The display will be routed to the display hardware/software

(confess haven't tested with a dock since I don't have one)

In my case I have multiple devices connected to my USB-C (Thunderbolt) ports. My display shows up under thunderbolt, USB devices show under USB and Thunderbolt devices show under thunderbolt.

It is confusing that Apple refers to them as Thunderbolt ports when they are actually USB-C. What they are trying to convey, I think, is that their USB-C ports support thunderbolt. That isn't guaranteed with USB-C ports
 

Boyd01

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Feb 21, 2012
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I have a 2019 iMac running MacOS Monterey 12.5. I purchased a SanDisk Extreme USB-C 3.2 Gen 2 portable SSD to use as an external backup. It's spontaneously disconnecting from both the TB3 port and the USB-A port.

How frequently does this happen? I finally upgraded my 2018 Mini from Catalina to Monterey yesterday. I have two 2TB Samsung T7 SSD's permanently connected to the USB-C ports and several others that are also connected during backups.

No problems at all so far, but I am only one day into Monterey. I have my Mini set not to sleep (just the display sleeps). Have read about many problems with disconnecting disks and displays not being recognized when the Mini sleeps and I didn't want to deal with any of that. Those issues go back much farther than Monterey however.
 

Lasermoon

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Nov 15, 2020
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I have an iMac 27" 2019, see details below, and I have had an OWC 6 Bay running x6 6TB hard drives for years now with no disconnections at all, currently running Monterey 12.5.1, everything is still fine.
Maybe you have an external hard drive issue or try using an OEM Apple Cable
I purchased the longer cable so I can run the drives under my desk out the way.
Thunderbolt 4 Pro Cable (3m)
Thunderbolt 4 Pro Cable (1.8m)
 

theorist9

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How frequently does this happen? I finally upgraded my 2018 Mini from Catalina to Monterey yesterday. I have two 2TB Samsung T7 SSD's permanently connected to the USB-C ports and several others that are also connected during backups.

No problems at all so far, but I am only one day into Monterey. I have my Mini set not to sleep (just the display sleeps). Have read about many problems with disconnecting disks and displays not being recognized when the Mini sleeps and I didn't want to deal with any of that. Those issues go back much farther than Monterey however.
I have an iMac 27" 2019, see details below, and I have had an OWC 6 Bay running x6 6TB hard drives for years now with no disconnections at all, currently running Monterey 12.5.1, everything is still fine.
Maybe you have an external hard drive issue or try using an OEM Apple Cable
I purchased the longer cable so I can run the drives under my desk out the way.
Thunderbolt 4 Pro Cable (3m)
Thunderbolt 4 Pro Cable (1.8m)
As I mentioned in my OP, this might be due to a bad drive and/or cable, so arriving today from AZ are another brand of drive (Kingston XS2000), along with its own cable, plus two aftermarket cables, including an over-provisioned USB-IF certified 40 Gbps cable from Cable Matters (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08Q79BY1X?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details ) (I say "over-provisioned" because the max these drives can do when connected to my iMac is 10 Gbps). That will give me eight possible drive-cable combinations (2 drives x 4 cables) to test. And one of them is a USB-C to USB-A cable, so I'll be testing them in both the TB3 port and the USB-A port.

I'll report back with my detailed findings in a few days.
 

harriska2

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Mar 16, 2011
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Just upgraded to Monterey then Ventura. My Samsung EVO 4tb SSD with Sata III in an evoy case is now dropping. Have it hooked to the USB-c port on my 2018 mini. Ugh. I take it I need to get a different case that is powered (Which is impossible to find for a 2.5” sata 3 drive).
 
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Boyd01

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I finally upgraded my 2018 Mini from Catalina to Monterey yesterday. I have two 2TB Samsung T7 SSD's permanently connected to the USB-C ports and several others that are also connected during backups. No problems at all so far, but I am only one day into Monterey.

Quick update here. I have experienced disconnected drive problems twice now. However, my hardware setup is a bit different since my previous post. I changed my screen connection from USB-C to HDMI in order to free up a port and now have three 2tb external SSD's connected all the time (two WD Black and one Samsung T7 Shield). Running like this, I don't have any problems. The disconnects happened while I had a fourth Samsung T7 connected to run a Carbon Copy backup.

This doesn't seem to be a problem unless I leave all four disks connected for an extended period (like overnight for a long backup). I wonder if four disks is pushing the limit of the power the ports are able to deliver? Never used four disks before upgrading to Monterey, so don't know if this is a new issue or not.
 

harriska2

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Mar 16, 2011
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Quick update here. I have experienced disconnected drive problems twice now. However, my hardware setup is a bit different since my previous post. I changed my screen connection from USB-C to HDMI in order to free up a port and now have three 2tb external SSD's connected all the time (two WD Black and one Samsung T7 Shield). Running like this, I don't have any problems. The disconnects happened while I had a fourth Samsung T7 connected to run a Carbon Copy backup.

This doesn't seem to be a problem unless I leave all four disks connected for an extended period (like overnight for a long backup). I wonder if four disks is pushing the limit of the power the ports are able to deliver? Never used four disks before upgrading to Monterey, so don't know if this is a new issue or not.
I have nothing else connected to my ports. HDMI and powered USB A hub. Looking at upgrading from the USB powered OWC Mercury Elite Pro USB-c external case to the OWC Mercury Elite Pro 3.5” (use an adapter to make the 2.5” SSD fit?) that has a power cable. Apparently I am not using the drive like others 🤷🏻‍♀️ - or my mini sucks by not delivering enough power.
 

theorist9

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Apologies for the very long delay in following up, but here is what I found:

1) The USB-C cables that came with both the Kingston XS2000 and SanDisk Extreme external SSD's suck. I had problems connecting these drives to my iMac's TB3 ports that were solved by upgrading to Cable Matters 40 Gbps USB4 cables, whicih have the benefit of being reasonably-priced and USB-IF certified.

2) USB-C connections are supposed to be the cat's meow because they are so small, and symmetrical. The symmetry is a nice convenience vs. USB-A. But there's a big downside to them: Because they have much less surface area supporting the same cable than USB-A or HDMI (or even mini-DP), they are much less robust and get loose over time. I found this both with the ports on my 2019 iMac, and with the Cable Matters cables. [It's so loose on my iMac that I'm going to get it repaired under AC+.] That's why OWC offers optional port tighteners with its USB-C docks. I wonder how USB-C connectors fare in professional settings, where they could be subject to much more abuse than I inflicted during my careful connection and disconnection for drive testing. The females should really be built with thicker outer metal walls. As you can't make the shield walls of the males much thicker, they need to look into stronger metals.

3) I replaced the San Disk Extreme with a pair of Kingston XS2000's. They are slower than the San Disk, but don't spontaneously disconnect when attached to the TB3 ports. The SanDisk was faster than the XS2000, but draws more power (25% more for the same drive size, according to Anadtech's measurements), so that could be why. Indeed, the XS2000's are suffiicently low in power that, up until a few weeks ago, I was able to run them from my USB-A ports, freeing the two TB3 ports for my two external monitors. Alas, that all changed when I upgraded from Monterey 12.7 to 12.7.1. Then both drives began repeatedly disconnecting. And not only that, but I began to experience global OS problems, including routine cursor freezes (every few hours, forcing me to reboot), and a couple of kernel panics [panic(cpu 0 caller 0xffffff80037876a2): nvme: "3rd party NVMe controller. Command timeout.]

Switching the two Kingston XS2000's from the USB-A ports to the TB3 ports fixed all those issues. If power delivery were the issue, that could explain why—TB3's 15 W limit is >3x the 4.5 W limit of USB-A, which are USB Gen 3, and is well under the 4.73 W max Anandtech measured in their review of the 2 TB XS2000.

It is mysterious that plugging bus-powered SSD's into USB-A ports should create global OS issues, as well as a panic involving my internal NVMe drive, as those would seem to have nothing to do with the USB ports. But one reason drives could disconnect is because they are drawing more power than then the ports can (or are allowed to) supply. So I suppose it is at least possible that the Monterey update affected that power setting, and it is further plausible that something that causes a port power limit to be exceeded (thus forcing the disconnects) could have global effects on the PCIe system (which feeds the internal drive as well) (but of course I am purely speculating here).

Anyways, since I now have four devices that need to be plugged into TB ports (my two Kingston XS2000's, and my two external monitors), and my iMac has only two, I got a Sonnet Echo 11 TB4 dock (on sale during BF for $160). Its three downstream TB ports gives me two more TB ports (I lose one to plug in the Echo), for a total of four.
 
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