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donawalt

Contributor
Original poster
Sep 10, 2015
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630
Hi all, I know in some of the older Intel CPU models, max CPU temps were around 100° - 105° C. depending on the CPU model....have specs been issued for the M1 Max Pro models?

I have been running some work related processes, and this morning I have seen around 88° - 90° C., fans running around 1500 rpm. I am assuming that is very acceptable. The top of the chassis is not warm at all.

BTW, fans running at 1500 rpm - I can't even hear them. I assumed the fans were not running!
 

Lihp8270

macrumors 65816
Dec 31, 2016
1,143
1,608
Hi all, I know in some of the older Intel CPU models, max CPU temps were around 100° - 105° C. depending on the CPU model....have specs been issued for the M1 Max Pro models?

I have been running some work related processes, and this morning I have seen around 88° - 90° C., fans running around 1500 rpm. I am assuming that is very acceptable. The top of the chassis is not warm at all.

BTW, fans running at 1500 rpm - I can't even hear them. I assumed the fans were not running!
It’s fine.

The system will manage itself to keep temperatures within specification
 
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Madhatter32

macrumors 65816
Apr 17, 2020
1,478
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It’s fine.

The system will manage itself to keep temperatures within specification
Of course -- but at what cost? No one designs a laptop that will melt your system board on a given chasis. The cost, obviously, is paid with thermal throttling.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,678
Of course -- but at what cost? No one designs a laptop that will melt your system board on a given chasis. The cost, obviously, is paid with thermal throttling.

You call it „thermal throttling“, engineers call it „the way it works“. There is always a limit to performance somewhere. M1 chips wobt go over 3.2Ghz no matter how much thermal headroom you have. To optimize the system Apple prefers to keep the temperature on the high end of the spectrum while the chip is running at its maximal sustained performance level.
 
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Madhatter32

macrumors 65816
Apr 17, 2020
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You call it „thermal throttling“, engineers call it „the way it works“. There is always a limit to performance somewhere. M1 chips wobt go over 3.2Ghz no matter how much thermal headroom you have. To optimize the system Apple prefers to keep the temperature on the high end of the spectrum while the chip is running at its maximal sustained performance level.
Almost everyone calls it thermal throttling -- just so you know. Never heard of the term "the way it works" with respect to temperatures. Anyway, temps above 100°C is cause for concern -- no question. Those temperatures will shorten the life of your laptop. I would be surprised if Apple allows temperatures above that point. Frankly, the cost in thermal throttling would be worth lower the temperatures.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,678
Almost everyone calls it thermal throttling -- just so you know. Never heard of the term "the way it works" with respect to temperatures. Anyway, temps above 100°C is cause for concern -- no question.

Then please kindly explain why every CPU sold in last couple of years is safe to run at up to 105C according to the manufacturer.


Those temperatures will shorten the life of your laptop.

That’s a questionable statement, not supported by empirical evidence abs directly contradicted by the fact that, again, COU manufacturers say that these temperatures are safe.

I would be surprised if Apple allows temperatures above that point. Frankly, the cost in thermal throttling would be worth lower the temperatures.

Well, they do allow to get temperatures this high, and no, there is no throttling.
 
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Stratus Fear

macrumors 6502a
Jan 21, 2008
696
433
Atlanta, GA
Then please kindly explain why every CPU sold in last couple of years is safe to run at up to 105C according to the manufacturer.




That’s a questionable statement, not supported by empirical evidence abs directly contradicted by the fact that, again, COU manufacturers say that these temperatures are safe.



Well, they do allow to get temperatures this high, and no, there is no throttling.
Yep. I feel like we need @cmaier's posts stickied every time one of these threads comes up. He had several excellent ones on this topic in that other thread.
 

Adarna

Suspended
Jan 1, 2015
685
429
Hi all, I know in some of the older Intel CPU models, max CPU temps were around 100° - 105° C. depending on the CPU model....have specs been issued for the M1 Max Pro models?

I have been running some work related processes, and this morning I have seen around 88° - 90° C., fans running around 1500 rpm. I am assuming that is very acceptable. The top of the chassis is not warm at all.

BTW, fans running at 1500 rpm - I can't even hear them. I assumed the fans were not running!
It may be difficult to make it run that hot without raising outside air temp or sealing off the air intakes
 

Madhatter32

macrumors 65816
Apr 17, 2020
1,478
2,949
Then please kindly explain why every CPU sold in last couple of years is safe to run at up to 105C according to the manufacturer.




That’s a questionable statement, not supported by empirical evidence abs directly contradicted by the fact that, again, COU manufacturers say that these temperatures are safe.



Well, they do allow to get temperatures this high, and no, there is no throttling.
Please provide the guidance from Apple on the operating temperatures. That would be helpful. This is not the guidance provided for most NVIDIA, Intel and AMD processors -- the processors I am most familiar with -- which is generally between 90°C and 100°C at the high end.

Prolonged and sustained high CPU temperatures are a concern for the longevity of your laptop. This is common knowledge and has been for a long time. I am not saying that your system board melts at above 105°C. So, yes, you can operate your laptop at these temperatures. However, prolonged and sustained operating temperatures above 105°C will likely shorten the life of your laptop. This is a widely held view in the computing community.

 

wilsonlaidlaw

macrumors 6502
Oct 29, 2008
444
74
The CPU temps on both M1 MBA and Mini have been very low 25º to topping out around 40º. Good news for when I am at my house in the south of France where outside temps can be up to 45ºC and my Intel MacBook Pro used to get hot enough to burn bare legs with CPU temps in the 90º+ range.

Wilson
 

Stratus Fear

macrumors 6502a
Jan 21, 2008
696
433
Atlanta, GA
Hi all, I know in some of the older Intel CPU models, max CPU temps were around 100° - 105° C. depending on the CPU model....have specs been issued for the M1 Max Pro models?

I have been running some work related processes, and this morning I have seen around 88° - 90° C., fans running around 1500 rpm. I am assuming that is very acceptable. The top of the chassis is not warm at all.

BTW, fans running at 1500 rpm - I can't even hear them. I assumed the fans were not running!
In my (admittedly informal) testing, Apple seems to target 95-100C as a max for the M1 Max, although I have seen temps spike as high as 105C as fans ramp up (without any apparent thermally-triggered throttling either). The highest I have ever seen the fans was 2000RPM. Although what is probably more important than temperature is total thermal output. If you've had an Intel MBP in the past, you've probably noticed that under sustained high load, nearly the entire bottom of the machine gets pretty warm, but the Apple Silicon based MBPs have much more localized warming of the machine's enclosure as their total thermal output is less at a given load than Intel's is. They're much more thermally efficient in addition to being power efficient.
 

Grohowiak

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2012
768
793
In certain tasks it can get past 100 so I just use custom fan profiles that engage only when the temps go past 88. CPU is only one part inside that body that can be affected by high sustained heat and I rely on it too much for work to test its thermal limits.
For day to day use between project runs, the profile is off and I let the system manage the heat by itself and so far my 14 Pro is pretty awesome at it.
 

CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,527
11,543
Seattle, WA
MaxTech has posted videos on the thermal loads they have seen on pretty much every M1 Pro and M1 MAX configuration on both the 14" and 16" so feel free to chew through them.
 

januarydrive7

macrumors 6502a
Oct 23, 2020
537
578
Here we go again...

tl;dr, for when this thread explodes: el!73 g4m3rz know best --- high temperatures will kill your laptop; CPU designers don't know anything, and the rhetoric from the likes of @cmaier suggesting that running properly at these temperatures is a design constraint is nonsense.
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,866
Please provide the guidance from Apple on the operating temperatures. That would be helpful. This is not the guidance provided for most NVIDIA, Intel and AMD processors -- the processors I am most familiar with -- which is generally between 90°C and 100°C at the high end.
Apple doesn't publish such guidance because they aren't selling M1 series chips to anybody else. They are their own system integrator, so it's all on them and they don't really need to publish.

If you want to complain about their lack of openness, be aware that not publishing specs is the industry norm for internal-use-only chips. In fact, it's common even in chips sold to other companies. If it's not sold through a wide variety of channels to a wide variety of customers, odds are good you'll need to be a real sales prospect willing to sign a NDA before you see anything more than marketing material. Unfortunate, but it is the reality we live in.

Intel is a company which sells through a wide variety of channels, so they do openly publish some specs (not all, there's still plenty of NDA-only stuff). If you browse ark.intel.com (Intel's public database), it looks like they're typically aiming for 100C Tjunction in their desktop and mobile CPUs these days.

100C is not so far away from 105C, and I can tell you from experience that logic silicon rated for Tj(max)=105C is quite common. Why? Well, that's the kernel of truth you're misapplying here...

I think the shortest way to say it is that if the design team does its job, it's generally possible to achieve ~10 year lifespan assuming continuous operation at Tjunction = 105C. 10 years is a nice round number which is well beyond both the legal minimum warranty period and customer expectations across the world. It also has some pessimism baked in: few CPUs are asked to run at their max temp rating 24/7/365 for 10 years continuously.

So, 105C is a common choice for Tj(max) in consumer electronics. Other values are popular too, you'll see 85C on many components, but for high performance logic it's usually 105C.

Why did Intel choose 100C instead of 105C? Anyone's guess, but it's in the same ballpark. It's not because there's any risk of immediate or long-term physical damage if an Intel chip slightly exceeds 100C. (That said, you wouldn't want to operate it beyond 100C - Intel probably closed timing at 100C, so there's a risk of incorrect program execution at 101C and stock clocks.)

Prolonged and sustained high CPU temperatures are a concern for the longevity of your laptop. This is common knowledge and has been for a long time. I am not saying that your system board melts at above 105°C. So, yes, you can operate your laptop at these temperatures. However, prolonged and sustained operating temperatures above 105°C will likely shorten the life of your laptop. This is a widely held view in the computing community.

It may be a widely held view. That doesn't mean it's true. Common knowledge about deeply technical topics is frequently flawed or wrong.

So yes, it's a highly popular view that You Must Be Very Worried about temps in the range of 100C. But when actual engineers like me look at a number in that range, and it's a specific hotspot on the M1 die, it's a yawner. It's a number which is reasonable on its face, and if it's happening on all machines (which it appears to be), it's likely that it's actually within spec.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
Apple doesn't publish such guidance because they aren't selling M1 series chips to anybody else. They are their own system integrator, so it's all on them and they don't really need to publish.

If you want to complain about their lack of openness, be aware that not publishing specs is the industry norm for internal-use-only chips. In fact, it's common even in chips sold to other companies. If it's not sold through a wide variety of channels to a wide variety of customers, odds are good you'll need to be a real sales prospect willing to sign a NDA before you see anything more than marketing material. Unfortunate, but it is the reality we live in.

Intel is a company which sells through a wide variety of channels, so they do openly publish some specs (not all, there's still plenty of NDA-only stuff). If you browse ark.intel.com (Intel's public database), it looks like they're typically aiming for 100C Tjunction in their desktop and mobile CPUs these days.

100C is not so far away from 105C, and I can tell you from experience that logic silicon rated for Tj(max)=105C is quite common. Why? Well, that's the kernel of truth you're misapplying here...

I think the shortest way to say it is that if the design team does its job, it's generally possible to achieve ~10 year lifespan assuming continuous operation at Tjunction = 105C. 10 years is a nice round number which is well beyond both the legal minimum warranty period and customer expectations across the world. It also has some pessimism baked in: few CPUs are asked to run at their max temp rating 24/7/365 for 10 years continuously.

So, 105C is a common choice for Tj(max) in consumer electronics. Other values are popular too, you'll see 85C on many components, but for high performance logic it's usually 105C.

Why did Intel choose 100C instead of 105C? Anyone's guess, but it's in the same ballpark. It's not because there's any risk of immediate or long-term physical damage if an Intel chip slightly exceeds 100C. (That said, you wouldn't want to operate it beyond 100C - Intel probably closed timing at 100C, so there's a risk of incorrect program execution at 101C and stock clocks.)


It may be a widely held view. That doesn't mean it's true. Common knowledge about deeply technical topics is frequently flawed or wrong.

So yes, it's a highly popular view that You Must Be Very Worried about temps in the range of 100C. But when actual engineers like me look at a number in that range, and it's a specific hotspot on the M1 die, it's a yawner. It's a number which is reasonable on its face, and if it's happening on all machines (which it appears to be), it's likely that it's actually within spec.

I guess what I thought was secret isn’t so secret.
 
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Spindel

macrumors 6502a
Oct 5, 2020
521
655
Thermal cycling is worse for electronics than any temperatures posted in this thread, as long as you stay within temperature range.

For CPUs that most of the time means below 120 degC, usually that temperature hase more to do with the electrical resistance increasing than the silicon actually being damaged.

For the record the highest temperature I’ve seen on my M1 Mini is around 75 on SOC and 96 at the hottest core. At these temperatures the fan started to ramp up. Highest fan speed I’ve seen is around 2200 rpm, still inaudible, but most of the time my Mini sits at the base 1700 rpm. The M1 mini seems in my testing to start ramping up the fan at around 90-95 degres on the hottest core
 
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