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Help me decide!

  • Mac mini 16c

    Votes: 2 8.0%
  • Mac mini 19c

    Votes: 2 8.0%
  • Mac Studio 30c

    Votes: 10 40.0%
  • Mac Studio 38c

    Votes: 11 44.0%

  • Total voters
    25

enc0re

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 7, 2010
402
642
Help me decide. I will upgrade my M1 Mac mini primarily for the new HDMI port. I use a LG C2 42" OLED at 4K native (1x scaling).

The primary use is standard work stuff. Even the M1 is fine for that.
The secondary use is my favorite game, Civ VI, and maybe other games in the future. I can only play on low/medium with my M1 at 4K.
The tertiary use is rendering 1 to 1.5 hour long 4K60 videos in Camtasia. The M1 takes a while, but I only have to produce about 1 video per month.

Obviously I need at least an M2 Pro for the new HDMI port. However, the Mac Studio isn't that much more expensive and if it allows much better settings on Civ (and other future games) that may be worth it to me. On the other hand, maybe the M2 Pro already allows max settings at 4K120? I don't know and can't find benchmarks on that question.

The second question is if the step up GPU cores are worth it. There is nothing else I need to upgrade. I use 4TB external storage because of my 4K video needs anyway.

I'll cross-post this in the Mac mini forum. Please vote in both places! And feel free to comment any experiences you have with Civ VI at 4K on Apple Silicon.
 

Freida

Suspended
Oct 22, 2010
4,077
5,874
Looks like you don't really need an update. So honestly, wait till fall for possible M3 as that might be the perfect spot.


Help me decide. I will upgrade my M1 Mac mini primarily for the new HDMI port. I use a LG C2 42" OLED at 4K native (1x scaling).

The primary use is standard work stuff. Even the M1 is fine for that.
The secondary use is my favorite game, Civ VI, and maybe other games in the future. I can only play on low/medium with my M1 at 4K.
The tertiary use is rendering 1 to 1.5 hour long 4K60 videos in Camtasia. The M1 takes a while, but I only have to produce about 1 video per month.

Obviously I need at least an M2 Pro for the new HDMI port. However, the Mac Studio isn't that much more expensive and if it allows much better settings on Civ (and other future games) that may be worth it to me. On the other hand, maybe the M2 Pro already allows max settings at 4K120? I don't know and can't find benchmarks on that question.

The second question is if the step up GPU cores are worth it. There is nothing else I need to upgrade. I use 4TB external storage because of my 4K video needs anyway.

I'll cross-post this in the Mac mini forum. Please vote in both places! And feel free to comment any experiences you have with Civ VI at 4K on Apple Silicon.
 

enc0re

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 7, 2010
402
642
If there's an adapter that will let me do 120Hz HDR VRR, I would certainly consider it. It's my understanding the adapters don't enable VRR on M1. I would then also have to shell out for a hub, because all the TB and USB ports on my mini are taken. I also doubt that the Mac mini or Mac Studio are getting updated with M3 this year.
 
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enc0re

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 7, 2010
402
642
do you really need 120Hz VRR for Civilization? :-D
In my experience, VRR is very helpful at preventing screen tearing in Civ V and VI. I have well over 10,000 hours into those games across different platforms.

120 Hz is secondary for Civ, but I do enjoy an HFR desktop and it lets 24fps content play without pulldown.

I know my needs. I just have no experience on the Mac side of things with the performance of the Pro vs Max. And I can’t find 4K benchmarks either.

Considering the Mac Studio released 2 days ago, I’m not about to wait for M3.
 
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Freida

Suspended
Oct 22, 2010
4,077
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ok

In my experience, VRR is very helpful at preventing screen tearing in Civ V and VI. I have well over 10,000 hours into those games across different platforms.

120 Hz is secondary for Civ, but I do enjoy an HFR desktop and it lets 24fps content play without pulldown.

I know my needs. I just have no experience on the Mac side of things with the performance of the Pro vs Max. And I can’t find 4K benchmarks either.

Considering the Mac Studio released 2 days ago, I’m not about to wait for M3.
 
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kasakka

macrumors 68020
Oct 25, 2008
2,372
1,066
If there's an adapter that will let me do 120Hz HDR VRR, I would certainly consider it. It's my understanding the adapters don't enable VRR on M1. I would then also have to shell out for a hub, because all the TB and USB ports on my mini are taken. I also doubt that the Mac mini or Mac Studio are getting updated with M3 this year.
That's a lot of money to spend on just VRR support. My experience using one of the DP -> HDMI 2.1 adapters with a LG OLED TV on Windows was that everything else but VRR worked just fine and honestly I didn't miss it that much.

For Mac use, see this article.


You could just buy one of these CableMatters adapters, install the custom fw and have everything but VRR for a fraction of the cost of getting a whole new system.

More on this stuff in this very lengthy thread: https://forums.macrumoors.com/threa...le-silicon-m1-m2-now-possible.2381664/page-28

Have you also considered just getting a separate system for gaming? You could again spend a fraction of the money on a suitably powerful ITX size Windows gaming system where you have much more options for games and the level of performance.

I work from my Macbook Pro M2 Max and when I want to play games I just swap to my 13600K + RTX 4090, ITX system. It's of course a good bit larger than a Mac Studio but not some behemoth ATX box, but it cost me less than the closest equivalent Mac Studio and is massively more powerful for gaming.
 

hd__

macrumors newbie
Jun 12, 2023
4
0
Austria
I bit the bullet in the beginning of May and ordered the Mac mini with M2 Pro (12c/19c/16c) with 32GB and 1TB SSD for 2600€. Back then I was constantly debating between Mac Studio M1 Max or the Mac mini, because the Studio would cost me with similar config 2700€. My main usage is Xcode, so I thought I'll profit more from the additional CPU power. And I've read that the Studio can have some high pitching sound and that it is kinda a poker game if the noise will happens or not. That were the main reasons why I've picked the mini. So far, I love how fast that thing is and how silent it runs, although that means that it can heat up more quickly.

Now here we are in June, where the Studio M2 Max is available, and to be fair if I would be in the situation right now, I'd instantly pick the Studio, as long as there is proof that the high pitching noise from cooler has been fixed.

I think in your case, you'd also be better with the Studio, because you have more Encoders/Decoders for your video stuff and gaming with the Max is obviously better than with the Pro and you'll profit from the bigger cooler as well.
 

okkibs

macrumors 65816
Sep 17, 2022
1,069
1,004
I would upgrade from your current Mini, not just to prevent screen tearing, but equally so because the older base M1 chip is relatively limited when it comes to performance. An adapter wouldn't raise the fps or graphics settings and playing on medium and not even getting constant 60+fps on such an older game that doesn't even have crazy graphics is honestly just bad. But that's MacOS for you, it will struggle especially in 4k. In any case, I think your Mini is severely underpowered for a 4k screen.

Now which one to get, Mini or Studio. I checked benchmarks for you. Unrelated to those, I'd get the Studio over the Mini anyways because of the better cooling, and because it has 2 additional USB-C ports (not Thunderbolt capable on the M2 Max, limited to 10Gbps USB protocol). You mentioned that all your ports are in use, even though the M2 Pro Mini would double these, I think 4 isn't really that much either and I wouldn't like the visual mess that's connecting a USB hub to the Mini (I'd want that to sit on the desk and be visible).

Now for the benchmarks: In general the base M1 and M2 chips seem to be the only one that really struggle with gaming. M1 Max/Ultra and M2 Pro/Max/Ultra are all noticeably faster and how close performance is depends on the game, resolution and graphics settings.

However, the M1 Max Studio struggles with older games in 4k, as a reference Shadow of the Tomb Raider runs with 30fps on higher settings, and Borderlands 3 on high settings is not playable. Since the M2 Max isn't a huge upgrade, more of an incremental one, this means graphics intense games still won't run well in 4k on the new M2 Max Studio. And Shadow.. uses an Apple Silicon native new version that is more efficient than many other games, yet it struggles in 4k regardless.

Civ VI specifically uses an older Intel port and does not have an ASi native version, likely never will. If Apple cuts Rosetta 2 from future MacOS releases, many years in the future, this means eventually you won't be able to launch the game anymore at all. But the more immediate effect is that it will never be able to really utilize the Apple Silicon to its full potential, no matter how many Ultras you throw at it. The hardware will just be more and more bored (idling).

The game being unoptimized means no matter how well it runs on a better chip, eventually, as you discover more of the map and the time to calculate turns increases, you will eventually end up with stuttering and slowdowns. There are games out there that are better optimized, apparently Total War: Warhammer III is one of those. Yet a M1/M2 Ultra won't be enough for 4k either (at least in the higher settings).

I found this graph in Luke Miani's latest Mac Studio review video on Youtube:
Screen Shot 2023-06-16 at 13.35.31.png

It shows there is a noticeable fps gain as you go from the M2 Pro to the M2 Max, but that is with an optimized game that can make better use of the ASi than Civ VI, and it's on lower settings. Sadly the M1 Max is missing here. This mainly just confirms that anything M2 Pro and up will have a noticeable performance increase over the M1/M2 base chips, but it doesn't really help to answer the question which Mac you should get.

I can't find any good info for what's better for Civ VI, M2 Pro or M2 Max. Notebookcheck has a database for game tests but they did not test in 4k and the rest of the tests are too few to say anything. gpucheck.com does not test Apple hardware at all. I do not know of any other resources that have Apple benchmarks. The Youtube ones were mostly useless as they just show performance in the early game parts.

Overall you'll certainly see slightly better fps on the Studio, there is a bit more CPU headroom too which should help with turn calculation times, maybe overall this even makes the difference between 4k gaming being ok vs. just a bit too stuttery. If you want the extra ports anyways, the Studio isn't much more expensive with the identical 32GiB RAM configuration.

As every little bit of extra performance will help improve the generally bad MacOS gaming performance, I think you should get the Studio. I'd expect the difference in average fps to be around 10-20fps. So if you get 40-50fps on the M2 Pro Mini, you'd get the better 60 on the Studio. But that's likely about it, the Studio certainly won't push 100fps, and the worst part is that if the Mini were to struggle with 30 fps on higher settings, then the Studio with an additional dozens fps or so won't make the difference either.

But that is something you'd really have to try for yourself, sadly there likely won't be a useful benchmark for you because how many people buy a M2 Max Studio, or M2 Pro Mini, or even both, and then play Civ VI on a 4k display? All these variables would have to come together exactly like that to get meaningful results.

If a couple more fps is worth the price difference to you, then the Studio absolutely will be better for you. If you expect a 50% performance uplift, it's unlikely to have that.
 
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enc0re

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 7, 2010
402
642
@okkibs exactly my problem. I can't find 4K Civ benchmarks. There's a bit of shooting in the dark here.

@kasakka I currently own a powerful Windows gaming machine (self built) that handles Civ without a problem. I'll be giving it away. I'm just happier to have everything on my Mac and not KVM-switch back and forth.

I bought my mini 8 months ago to see if I wanted to switch. I find myself not using the Windows machine anymore for weeks at a time. Even though the performance would be way better, I'm happier just firing up Civ on my Mac. I've got my podcasts nicely synced. My AirPods Max support spatial audio while listening to Apple Music in Civ. I get and can reply to my iMessages. And so on and forth.
 

okkibs

macrumors 65816
Sep 17, 2022
1,069
1,004
Let me try this differently: The Mini 19c doesnt make sense, not much cheaper than the Studio. Either go M2 Pro base if you prefer to save money or the base model Studio. The upgraded Studio will make a small difference if any. The base model Studio gives you the best ratio of gaming performance to cost. The jump from M1 to M2 Pro is the most significant, as the older M1 chip is just too weak. Meaning whichever model you end up choosing, upgrading will be worth it. All models will have annoyances/stuttering due to Civ VI being unoptimized for Apple Silicon.
 
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enc0re

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 7, 2010
402
642
The upgraded Studio will make a small difference if any.

Can you explain that one? 30->38 cores seems like a 27% jump. Traditionally GPU stuff is parallelizable.

For reference, the price points I face are:
Mac mini 16c - $1,099
Mac mini 19c - $1,369
Mac Studio 30c - $1,799
Mac Studio 38c - $1,979
 

Freida

Suspended
Oct 22, 2010
4,077
5,874
Get the 16c base one and enjoy it. You save money and its more than enough for what you need. When M4 or so comes out you can update again if you have the need. Seeing that you are almost fine with M1 then anything will be overkill. M2 Pro 16c is probably plenty fast.

Can you explain that one? 30->38 cores seems like a 27% jump. Traditionally GPU stuff is parallelizable.

For reference, the price points I face are:
Mac mini 16c - $1,099
Mac mini 19c - $1,369
Mac Studio 30c - $1,799
Mac Studio 38c - $1,979
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,023
2,615
Los Angeles, CA
Help me decide. I will upgrade my M1 Mac mini primarily for the new HDMI port. I use a LG C2 42" OLED at 4K native (1x scaling).

The primary use is standard work stuff. Even the M1 is fine for that.
The secondary use is my favorite game, Civ VI, and maybe other games in the future. I can only play on low/medium with my M1 at 4K.
The tertiary use is rendering 1 to 1.5 hour long 4K60 videos in Camtasia. The M1 takes a while, but I only have to produce about 1 video per month.

Obviously I need at least an M2 Pro for the new HDMI port. However, the Mac Studio isn't that much more expensive and if it allows much better settings on Civ (and other future games) that may be worth it to me. On the other hand, maybe the M2 Pro already allows max settings at 4K120? I don't know and can't find benchmarks on that question.

The second question is if the step up GPU cores are worth it. There is nothing else I need to upgrade. I use 4TB external storage because of my 4K video needs anyway.

I'll cross-post this in the Mac mini forum. Please vote in both places! And feel free to comment any experiences you have with Civ VI at 4K on Apple Silicon.
Nothing in your list of needs seems to warrant needing anything with a "Max" SoC. Hell, I'm pretty sure you'd be fine with a standard M2 Mac mini for most of those things. However, if you want a bump up, I'd say that an M2 Pro Mac mini ought to be plenty. If you want to give yourself the two extra CPU cores and the three extra GPU cores, then get the higher-end one. I don't know that you need it, but it ought to give you good mileage to last you much longer before you end up wanting to replace it than you got with the standard M1.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the main reason Civ VI isn't performing as well as you'd like is that it's still not Apple Silicon native. I'd imagine that when/if games start getting updated to be native, performance on things like the standard M1, let alone any M2, M2 Pro, M2 Max, M2 Ultra, will skyrocket.
 

okkibs

macrumors 65816
Sep 17, 2022
1,069
1,004
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the main reason Civ VI isn't performing as well as you'd like is that it's still not Apple Silicon native.
That is true, however there doesn't seem to be a port to native in the works. If anything, we can expect the game to run under the newly announced Apple game porting toolkit. Under the hood it simply runs wine, similar to Crossover (https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover) but this comes with official Apple support and of course is Apple Silicon native.

But there aren't any games yet, and the chance that OP's specific one favorite game is ported in the near future is not that high. Maybe the studio instead announces a new Civ game in the series and then ports that one instead, leaving Civ VI behind.

Hell, I'm pretty sure you'd be fine with a standard M2 Mac mini for most of those things.
But that clearly has much, much worse gaming performance. OP already has a M1 Mini, the gaming performance increase over that with the base M2 chip is minimal. Other than the HDMI port there would be no performance uplift.

For reference, the price points I face are:
Mac mini 16c - $1,099
Mac Studio 30c - $1,799
I see, you're comparing different memory configs. A major price difference here is the 16GiB of RAM. If you do not need 32GiB, then you'd be paying $600 extra just for the roughly 10-25 fps gain. I misunderstood that in the beginning, I thought it's all 32GiB configs. Then all the recommendations change since the price difference between the two Macs is much bigger.

Can you explain that one? 30->38 cores seems like a 27% jump. Traditionally GPU stuff is parallelizable.
It's a mobile GPU design instead of a desktop GPU design and thus uses tiled rendering. Civ VI is an old Intel port that wasn't even optimized for MacOS to begin with in Intel times, it was a Windows game first, and optimized for desktop GPUs.

I have timestamped you this video that shows how a M1 Max even at 80fps still has games stutter:

However, the video also shows that going from the Mx Pro to Mx Max indeed translates to better performance even on an older Intel game. So that 27% jump you mentioned might actually be what you can get in Civ VI, as long as you can accept that stuttering won't go away.

Let's say you have optimized the settings for a M2 Pro base at around 55fps and then add the 27% theoretical extra performance, but a bit conservatively and let's say it makes 24% difference in Civ VI fps, so you'd go from 55fps to around 60fps. Would the extra money you spend allow you to bump graphics settings up from medium to high? Certainly not. Would it decrease stuttering a bit? Definitely.

So that's what I imagine the extra money you'd spend to look actually look like. Would the M1 Max allow to set the graphics one setting higher? Probably. Do you want to keep the graphics as is and just get better performance? All M2 Pro Mini configs do that.
 

enc0re

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 7, 2010
402
642
Civ 7 development was announced this year. Based on the release cycle of previous Civ, I’ve been playing all Civs since Civ 1 on an 80286 in 1991, I expect it to be released this or early next year. Typically Windows and Mac versions release within days of each other.

I do not expect Civ 7 to use the Game Porting Toolkit. Civ 6 uses Metal, even if it still relies on Rosetta. Going to Wine would be a big step backwards. I expect it to be native Apple Silicon or maybe Rosetta plus Metal again. For Civ 6 the same house that did the Mac port, Aspyr, later ported the full game to iPadOS with custom very low graphics settings, which is obviously AS native.

My Windows machine (9900K+RTX2070) let me play on Ultra at 1440p. I haven’t bothered hooking it up to my new 4K display. As I mentioned, my M1 is on Low graphics, Medium performance. I have not experienced stuttering.

I just wish I knew what the Macs are capable of at 4K! Like let’s say the Pro is Medium, the Studio is Ultra. I’d definitely get the Studio. With both upgraded GPUs, the Studio does have twice the GPU of the Pro. But does that translate!?

Thanks for all the help you all. It’s frustrating. For Windows is so easy to find benchmarks pre-purchase.
 

okkibs

macrumors 65816
Sep 17, 2022
1,069
1,004
Yes it does translate, but not 1:1. The uplift in gaming from M1 Max to M1 Ultra, so 24 to 48 cores is about 25-65% in 4k with older Intel games heavily depending on the specific game with no Civ VI benchmarks to be found, so it's far off from double the fps. WoW with its optimized ASi native version sees almost a 100% uplift as you'd expect from the specs. I looked at various sources, amongst them

If you are planning ahead for a ASi native Civ VII then it could very well be worth it to get the most expensive Ultra. But that is based on a lot of assumptions, such as a native port actually being as well optimized as WoW is. It might be worse.

We could divide the cost of the different configs by the amount of GPU cores they have, which would put the Mac Studio M2 Max 38c at the top with the cheapest cores (i.e. most cores for the money), excluding the Ultra configs.

Even if you were to decide that a M2 Max or even Ultra is worth it - perhaps next year's M3 Max/Ultra are significantly better so that it would make more sense to get the M2 Pro Mini now, so you can get rid of that measly M1, and sell that in a year or two for a M3 or M4 Studio and then go all the way to the Ultra.

Another idea is to start off with a M2 Pro Mini, and only if that isn't enough performance exchange it for a Studio.

Finally, you could bring the game .app on a USB thumb drive to an Apple Store, or any other store that has them on display and ask if you can try the game. They should at least have either a Mini or a Studio set up with a Studio Display. And perhaps you'd need a savegame so you can see the performance of a later stage game.
 
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enc0re

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 7, 2010
402
642
The game is on Steam so unfortunately it’s not a simple .app on USB to Apple Store. Buy-and-return would be a strategy. I’d feel like a bit of a jerk doing it. But I’ll think about!

Max Studio Ultra would be epic! Out of budget for me though. There’s also an issue where Max is faster than Ultra for Game Porting Toolkit because of the weird architecture of the Ultra. I figure that’ll go away eventually.
 
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