MP 1,1-5,1 HELP NEEDED: Upgrading MacPro 4,1 (2009) to 5,1

[tonilef44]

Hi all,

I have recently been watching a few videos on Youtube where people upgrade 4,1 or 5,1 MacPro. I want to give it a go myself even though I am absolutely rubbish in IT. I am a Video Editor/ Motion Designer using Adobe softwares and in need of more power from my machine but can't spend £7k on a new iMAcPro for instance.

Here is the machine I am using:

• Model Name: Mac Pro (Early 2009)
• OS: MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6
• Model Identifier: MacPro4,1
• Processor Name: Quad-Core Intel Xeon
• Processor Speed: 2.26 GHz
• Number of Processors: 2
• Total Number of Cores: 8
• L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB
• L3 Cache (per Processor): 8 MB
• Memory: 32 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
• Boot ROM Version: MP41.0081.B07
• SMC Version (system): 1.39f5
• SMC Version (processor tray): 1.39f5
• Serial Number (system): CK0030MLE1C
• Serial Number (processor tray): J5951006BBXZA
• Hardware UUID: A038CD54-3345-5930-9438-1EB7AF64536B
• HardDrive SSD: Samsung SSD 500 GB 860 EVO Sata III 64L V NAND
• Graphics: ATI Radeon HD 5770 1024 MB

My aim is to flash it to 5,1 to then install 2 delidded 3.46ghz CPU, 128gb RAM, an AMD RX580 8GB GPU, and Mojave.


My questions are the following:

1. Can I flash the MacPro to a 5,1 even if I don't have the original Graphics Card GT120 ? I only have a ATI Radeon HD 5770 1024 MB?
2. Can I flash the MacPro to a 5,1 if I am already running High Sierra?
3. If flashing the MacPro to 5,1, is there a risk of the machine crashing and therefore losing everything on the drive? Shall I make a back-up before?
4. Once this is done, are delidded CPU a option? (Some say it makes it more fragile and it might die quickly, some say it's the best way to go) or I should go for normal CPU and be very careful when putting the heatsinks back on (this looks rather complicated and I wouldn't want to crush nearly £200 worth of CPU).
5. I was looking at either 2 X5680 (3,33ghz) or 2 X5690 (3.46ghz), some say the 3.46ghz might overheat and die on the 4,1 as it's too powerful. Is that true?
6. Which brand of RAM would you recommend please? Does it even matter? Would these be a good option?
   
   

   Samsung 8x 16GB 128GB DDR3 ECC 1333MHz RAM für Apple Mac Pro 4,1 5,1 PC3L-12800R | eBay

   DIMM DDR3 ECC PC3L-12800R 1333Mhz 240pin CL9. Diese Speicher sind am besten für Kunden geeignet, die auf absolute Stabilität und beste Leistung zum fairen Preis Wert legen. Speicher (SO-DIMMs). Speicher (DIMMs).

   www.ebay.co.uk
7. If I install the RX580 8GB, will I still have the apple boot screen? The following card for example:
   
   

   AMD APPLE Radeon RX 580 8GB Mac Edition With Boot screen EFI, for Mac Pro. ref0D | eBay

   Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for AMD APPLE Radeon RX 580 8GB Mac Edition With Boot screen EFI, for Mac Pro. ref0D at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

   www.ebay.co.uk

I know these are a lot of questions but I don't know anyone here that can help me directly. Can you please confirm this is the right way of approaching things? and if the 5,1 conversion is actually worth it? Or if I am just wasting my time with my 4,1, that I should sell it and start fresh with a 5,1?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

tonilef44

 

[Jedispirits]

Hi all,

I have recently been watching a few videos on Youtube where people upgrade 4,1 or 5,1 MacPro. I want to give it a go myself even though I am absolutely rubbish in IT. I am a Video Editor/ Motion Designer using Adobe softwares and in need of more power from my machine but can't spend £7k on a new iMAcPro for instance.

Here is the machine I am using:

• Model Name: Mac Pro (Early 2009)
• OS: MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6
• Model Identifier: MacPro4,1
• Processor Name: Quad-Core Intel Xeon
• Processor Speed: 2.26 GHz
• Number of Processors: 2
• Total Number of Cores: 8
• L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB
• L3 Cache (per Processor): 8 MB
• Memory: 32 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
• Boot ROM Version: MP41.0081.B07
• SMC Version (system): 1.39f5
• SMC Version (processor tray): 1.39f5
• Serial Number (system): CK0030MLE1C
• Serial Number (processor tray): J5951006BBXZA
• Hardware UUID: A038CD54-3345-5930-9438-1EB7AF64536B
• HardDrive SSD: Samsung SSD 500 GB 860 EVO Sata III 64L V NAND
• Graphics: ATI Radeon HD 5770 1024 MB

My aim is to flash it to 5,1 to then install 2 delidded 3.46ghz CPU, 128gb RAM, an AMD RX580 8GB GPU, and Mojave.


My questions are the following:

1. Can I flash the MacPro to a 5,1 even if I don't have the original Graphics Card GT120 ? I only have a ATI Radeon HD 5770 1024 MB?
2. Can I flash the MacPro to a 5,1 if I am already running High Sierra?
3. If flashing the MacPro to 5,1, is there a risk of the machine crashing and therefore losing everything on the drive? Shall I make a back-up before?
4. Once this is done, are delidded CPU a option? (Some say it makes it more fragile and it might die quickly, some say it's the best way to go) or I should go for normal CPU and be very careful when putting the heatsinks back on (this looks rather complicated and I wouldn't want to crush nearly £200 worth of CPU).
5. I was looking at either 2 X5680 (3,33ghz) or 2 X5690 (3.46ghz), some say the 3.46ghz might overheat and die on the 4,1 as it's too powerful. Is that true?
6. Which brand of RAM would you recommend please? Does it even matter? Would these be a good option?
   
   

   Samsung 8x 16GB 128GB DDR3 ECC 1333MHz RAM für Apple Mac Pro 4,1 5,1 PC3L-12800R | eBay

   DIMM DDR3 ECC PC3L-12800R 1333Mhz 240pin CL9. Diese Speicher sind am besten für Kunden geeignet, die auf absolute Stabilität und beste Leistung zum fairen Preis Wert legen. Speicher (SO-DIMMs). Speicher (DIMMs).

   www.ebay.co.uk
7. If I install the RX580 8GB, will I still have the apple boot screen? The following card for example:
   
   

   AMD APPLE Radeon RX 580 8GB Mac Edition With Boot screen EFI, for Mac Pro. ref0D | eBay

   Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for AMD APPLE Radeon RX 580 8GB Mac Edition With Boot screen EFI, for Mac Pro. ref0D at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

   www.ebay.co.uk

I know these are a lot of questions but I don't know anyone here that can help me directly. Can you please confirm this is the right way of approaching things? and if the 5,1 conversion is actually worth it? Or if I am just wasting my time with my 4,1, that I should sell it and start fresh with a 5,1?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

tonilef44

Hi tonilef44

Talking about precessors I prefer a delidded one for this MP as it is specially designed for that. I delidded two X5675 succesfully. It's not a much easy process but if you spend the time you'll surely do it.

I decided to buy a slower X5675 (3.06ghz) for its low power consume (95W). Both X5680 and X5690 are 130W. If i won't had decided for a low power one I'd had go for the X5690 without a doubt.

Regards,

Llorenç

 

[KeesMacPro]

@tonilef44 :

Hi , to put it very short I'll answer your concerns numbered as you did:

1.If the HD5770 is a OEM Mac version card, afaik yes.

2.It's not possible to install HS on a 4,1 natively. So you should install El Capitan to flash the MP 4,1 > 5,1.
Afterwards you can install HS natively , which involves another BootRom update. After that , you can install Mojave .
You may take a look at the Mojave thread here:https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-bootrom-upgrade-instructions-thread.2142418/

3.making a backup is a recommended and standard procedure when you upgrade/install/update .
Read the NetKas post thoroughly before you start, normally it works directly/ simply doesnt work because of something overseen/forgotten e.g. SIP enabled.

4.Yes, the 4,1 DUAL got delidded CPUs and its highly recommended to install delidded CPUs again.
Note that basic technical skills , some experience with installing CPUs and a thorough preparation is necessary to get the job done well.
If you're not 100% certain you can do it, it's better to ask somebody familiar with this to do it for you.

5.I've been using 2x X5690 for years now and never had any heat issue at all. It is recommended though to install e.g. MacsFanControl to keep an eye on especially the NorthBridge Temps (independent of the CPUs). Further it's important to check/renew the NorthBridge rivets and repaste it when the CPU upgrade is executed.

6.This is a German major seller with an excellent reputation, e.g.Samsung/Hynix are all good, I've never had any issues with this Shop, you can buy there without doubts.
BTW unless you're sure you'll need that much RAM, if installed 6 modules (6X8GB/ 6X 16GB) , the RAM will work in triple channel and be faster than with 8 modules.

7.This example is a flashed RX 580, so: Yes, you will have a bootscreen.

IMO the upgrade is definitely worth it, but the best way is to read and prepare yourself before you start. Like I said the CPU upgrade should not be underestimated.
Mojave install got some pitfalls too, so read the thread i linked above.

 

[tonilef44]

@KeesMacPro thanks for your detailed answer, this is very helpful.

2. You say “It's not possible to install HS on a 4,1 natively. So you should install El Capitan to flash the MP 4,1 > 5,1.”
i am already running HS, found a patch somewhere to make it work. Are you saying I need to downgrade to El Capitan to flash the MP to 5,1? Or am I fine to proceed with my current set up?

5. “Further it's important to check/renew the NorthBridge rivets and repaste it when the CPU upgrade is executed.”
Not sure what you mean ? Can you clarify please?

6. “BTW unless you're sure you'll need that much RAM, if installed 6 modules (6X8GB/ 6X 16GB) , the RAM will work in triple channel and be faster than with 8 modules.”
Are you saying it’s better to run 3x16gb RAM on each side (2x3x16=96gb) rather than 4x16gb on each side (2x3x16=128gb) ?

I think I am clear with everything else, my main concern it the firmware to 5,1 with my current graphics card and the fact that I am running High Sierra. I hope it will work, I guess I will just have to try.

thanks again for your help.

 

[KeesMacPro]

@tonilef44 Your welcome.

2.

Are you saying I need to downgrade to El Capitan to flash the MP to 5,1?

Yes.*

5. The NB rivets can break after so many years resulting in overheating/cooking the NB chip. there are several threads in this Forum about it, use the search on the right top of the page. The NB is a die with a small heatsink halfway underneath heatsink CPU A.

6.

Are you saying it’s better to run 3x16gb RAM on each side (2x3x16=96gb) rather than 4x16gb on each side (2x3x16=128gb) ?

Yes, unless you need the max amount of RAM.

The Technician Guide is very helpful too for maintenance, disassembling etc:

http://tim.id.au/laptops/apple/macpro/macpro_early2009.pdf

*= It might be practical to backup the current install (TimeMachine) , remove the current SSD , and do all the Firmware updates starting with a clean install of El Capitan on another known working SATA HDD/SSD. Once you've done all the steps and succeeded installing Mojave, you can import all your data on the clean Mojave OS by using Immigration Assistant.

 

[tonilef44]

@KeesMacPro thanks thats perfect, I think I've got all the info needed now.

How's that for a checklist? :

1. Downgrade to El Capitan
2. Disable System Integrity Protection (SIP)
3. Update Firmware to 5,1
4. re-enable System Integrity Protection (SIP)
5. Update OS to High Sierra
6. Open & clean dust inside machine
7. Replace NorthBridge heatsink clips + clean old thermal paste + apply fresh Thermal paste
   
   I read on another thread that you said:
   "personally I install them with the original springs(important!) and (nylon) M3x16mm bolts and nuts."
   
   --> would these be a good option?
   
   

   M3,M6 Nylon(Plastic) PAN Head Screws +Washer Faced Nuts (Flange Nuts)Packs of 10 | eBay

   Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for M3,M6 Nylon(Plastic) PAN Head Screws +Washer Faced Nuts (Flange Nuts)Packs of 10 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

   www.ebay.co.uk
8. Clean heatsinks from old Thermal paste
   
   --> Could you recommend a good product cleaner to clean these type of elements?
9. Replace CPUs with delidded 2x3.33ghz or 2x3.46ghz
10. Apply thermal paste.
    I have seen 2 methods for this, either put a small amount (see screengrab Method A) or covering the whole area (Method B), I know these are lidded, but I will follow the same process on the delidded ones.
11. Install 1333Mhz RAM (96gb)
12. Install flashed RX580 8GB
13. Check heat with Macs Fan Control
14. update OS to Mojave
15. fingers crossed that should be it ...
    
    Can you confirm this is a good checklist and if I have omitted anything important?
    
    Again, thanks massively for your help !

 

[skizzo]

My two cents, Don't mess around with replacing those northbridge heatsink clips unless they are broken. If it isn't broken, don't try fixing it.

Use isopropyl alcohol to clean the thermal paste off. I recommend an alcohol prep pad, one of those lil pads that come presoaked in the isopropyl alcohol. If you don't have those, a q-tip (cotton swab) will also work with the isopropyl alcohol

The application methods for apply thermal paste......this debate will apparently never end lol. So many youtubers have proven this really does not matter as long as you put enough on. I've personally never gone the spreading it route. Pea size in the center or making an X pattern with dots between the X. They all make the same end result, as long as you use enough. If you apply the heatsink and it is oozing out everywhere then you put on way too much! Easy way to check is to apply the heatsink, then immediately remove it to check how the spread worked. If you like it, reinstall and enjoy your system. If it doesn't look like enough then add just a bit more and repeat the process until it looks good.

 

[KeesMacPro]

@tonilef44 :
The checklist is good!

7. What matters most is the size ( M3 X 16mm length), some people use ordinary steel, check that the pressure is egual on both screws= same ~2mm thread coming out of the nut after install.
8. isopropyl is the best cleaner for this.
10. about the size of a large rice grain in the middle (lengthwise) will be fine.

If you're going to do it all yourself , take your time and work methodically i.e. after an important step check,test and proceed ,if you combine a lot of steps at a time, it may get complicated in case of a problem to find out what's not done properly/ causing issues.
So for example after step 10, i'd do step 13 to check the CPU and NB Temps .

 

[tonilef44]

@KeesMacPro thanks for the quick reply as always.

Yes I am going to do this by myself, probably over Xmas when I do not need my computer for work and am able to take my time on it. Maybe earlier if the opportunity comes but I'll need to order all the parts first etc..
I agree with you on working methodically and even adding a few extra steps to double check everything.
I have read a lot on this forum in the past couple of days and the issues encountered seem to always be more or less the same and there are many YT videos as well.

Just one last questions:

The last comment before yours says: "Don't mess around with replacing those northbridge heatsink clips unless they are broken. If it isn't broken, don't try fixing it." but you seem quite adamant that it needs to be done.

--> If so, can you confirm these are good ones to buy? I have seen someone else tried to do this as well but you told him he bought the wrong ones. (too long)

M3,M6 Nylon(Plastic) PAN Head Screws +Washer Faced Nuts (Flange Nuts)Packs of 10 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for M3,M6 Nylon(Plastic) PAN Head Screws +Washer Faced Nuts (Flange Nuts)Packs of 10 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

I might as well buy them for the price in case I need to change them.

Do you agree with this? I would take your advice as you seem very experienced on the matter.

thanks

 

[KeesMacPro]

Don't mess around with replacing those northbridge heatsink clips unless they are broken. If it isn't broken, don't try fixing it.

Sounds like "what I dont see isnt there"...
I've come across uncountable posts about broken NB rivets (curiously most apparently on the 4,1 dual ), and see the NB construction as the Achilles of the cMP.
Based on my own experience I consider it a standard procedure with any cMP to replace the rivets when upgrading/repairing .
It's an easy job and you can simply forget about it once done.
Especially with the dual 4,1 I'd avoid to remove the heatsinks once seated correctly and mess around with them e.g. to test some more/less thermal paste or because after a succeeded CPU install a few weeks later the NB delta is around 40 degrees...

"To avoid is better than to cure "

 

[tonilef44]

agreed. Thanks

Are these good then?

M3,M6 Nylon(Plastic) PAN Head Screws +Washer Faced Nuts (Flange Nuts)Packs of 10 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for M3,M6 Nylon(Plastic) PAN Head Screws +Washer Faced Nuts (Flange Nuts)Packs of 10 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[KeesMacPro]

Seems I just answered your question in my previous post to skizzo

Yes, these are the correct size,just saw they are available in M3X16mm.

 

[tonilef44]

@KeesMacPro
Sorry just wanted to sure.
I will update this post when I get to it.
I've got a lot on my plate now.

Thanks for all your precious answers.

 

[KeesMacPro]

Your very welcome,
keep us up to date

 

[tonilef44]

@KeesMacPro just thought of something:

Would you replace the thermal pads 3mm thick on the side of the heatsinks as well? Or is it only when they use lidded CPUs? (see picture attached)

 

[KeesMacPro]

I wouldn't replace them, just clean them with isopropyl in case of dust/dirt.