High Sierra to Mojave and need to keep HFS+ format

[mikeshep]

I need to migrate from a 2012 Mac Mini to a 2018 Mini. The OS on the 2012 is High Sierra. I need to move to Mojave
on the new Mini and, because of some 32-bit legacy software, need to remain in Mojave. Also that legacy app won't
write to an APFS formatted HD, so ideally want to wind up with Mojave on the new machine's internal SSD, formatted
for HFS+. I would then like to migrate the contents of the older machine up to that newer, Mojave OS HD.

I know there are a few anecdotes on forums on how to get Mojave to operate on an HFS+ formatted HD but I could use
a sort of simplified, step-by-step guide on the easiest possible way to accomplish the above.

So basically what I want to do is: Transfer the contents of my old 2012 Mini's HFS+internal SSD volume (High Sierra) onto the
new 2018 Mini's internal SSD, running Mojave and also retain HFS+ formatting on that newer Mini's HD.

I know it sounds a little convoluted but such is the price for wanting to keep certain software. This is a recording studio
application and unfortunately Mojave is the last OS that'll support it - but it also requires HFS+ vs APFS file format.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Mike

 

[KeesMacPro]

The common way to run Mojave on a HFS+ formatted disk is :

-install Mojave to a (external) spare drive APFS format
-update to the latest version/ security update
-import /edit all your data to your preferences
-format the internal disk you'd like to use for Mojave to HFS+ (=target disk)
-boot from the APFS Mojave disk and clone it to the target disk with CarbonCopyCloner (free trial version available, but it's definitely worth it to buy).

Note that the HFS+ Mojave disk can not be updated the normal way.
So I'd recommend to keep the APFS install and (regularly) clone your HFS+ drive to the APFS drive ,to serve as a backup.
For a system update , boot the APFS clone and after updating , clone the APFS back to your HFS+ Mojave drive.

 

[mikeshep]

The common way to run Mojave on a HFS+ formatted disk is :

-install Mojave to a (external) spare drive APFS format
-update to the latest version/ security update
-import /edit all your data to your preferences
-format the internal disk you'd like to use for Mojave to HFS+ (=target disk)
-boot from the APFS Mojave disk and clone it to the target disk with CarbonCopyCloner (free trial version available, but it's definitely worth it to buy).

Note that the HFS+ Mojave disk can not be updated the normal way.
So I'd recommend to keep the APFS install and (regularly) clone your HFS+ drive to the APFS drive ,to serve as a backup.
For a system update , boot the APFS clone and after updating , clone the APFS back to your HFS+ Mojave drive.

Thanks! That all makes sense! Much appreciated,

 

[KeesMacPro]

My pleasure, Mike!

 

[mikeshep]

My pleasure, Mike!

Hi again, well this is a bit more daunting than I should've figured on and had a follow up question or two on this process, if you don't mind. I hadn't thought about the fact that the 2018 Mini is
TB3 USB-C and my 2012's are TB-1/2. I think I need a second machine with the CCC application on it, in order to conduct the process of cloning the Mojave volume that I want to place onto the 2018 internal HD that I want to first format HFS+. Unfortunately I do not have a TB2-TB3 adapter on hand and have ordered one but wondering if there's any workaround that wouldn't require the CCC "host" machine...
This is as far as I am on this...

On a spare external HD, I created an APFS partition and installed a Mojave system on that, updating. I then used Migration Assistant to back up all of the contents/data of my 2012 Mini to that volume. Now, I'm assuming that I can't boot from the Recovery partition of the target 2018 mini if my intent is to clone the volume from the External to that internal HD, especially given that my goal and reason for all this is to put Mojave in HFS+ -- requiring formatting of that internal HD to HFS+ ?

Also, I have seen stuff about T2 chip which the '18 Mini has. I found the Security 'bypass' method to "allow" boot from an External, but before I get much further into this, is there anything else Apple has done with firmware or otherwise since this machine was released, that could block me from installing the clone volume of Mojave onto the HFS+ formatted internal HD of the 2018 mini?

Thanks again for any further info you might have on this! Greatly appreciated!

Mike

 

[KeesMacPro]

Hi Mike, I hope others can chime in and/or you can find the right info about how to erase the internal disk with the T2 chip involved.
After setting this in recovery you can definitely boot from your external Mojave disk, but I'm not sure what happens when you erase the internal disk, because this implies you erase the recovery partition too....

TBH I dont own a Mac with this "fantastic" new feature and it didnt cross my mind when I read your post...
I'd first check this thoroughly before proceeding.


Worst case scenario would be to migrate to the internal Mojave APFS volume without converting to HFS+....

 

[mikeshep]

Hi Mike, I hope others can chime in and/or you can find the right info about how to erase the internal disk with the T2 chip involved.
After setting this in recovery you can definitely boot from your external Mojave disk, but I'm not sure what happens when you erase the internal disk, because this implies you erase the recovery partition too....

TBH I dont own a Mac with this "fantastic" new feature and it didnt cross my mind when I read your post...
I'd first check this thoroughly before proceeding.


Worst case scenario would be to migrate to the internal Mojave APFS volume without converting to HFS+....

Hi Kees, per your notes on the rest of the process, on the 2018, when choosing the External Mojave volume as the startup disk, I get to the following dialogue box: "A software update is required to use this startup disk. You can update now or select another startup disk."

I am pausing at this stage because A) I don't know if it's referring to whatever version of Mojave is on the 2018 internal vs the software version that's on the External HD Mojave install...but AFAIK I did download and install all necessary Security updates on that prior to migrating my 2012 HS contents onto it. B) If I update it, could it maybe invoke some sort of restriction designed (T2 or whatever) to prevent cloning Mojave onto an HFS+ disk? Guess I can just go ahead and try it but maybe you or someone else would have an idea on what's going on in this instance and whether that will 'break' anything relative to what I'm trying to do. I do know that people have documented having successfully managed to accomplish this Mojave on HFS+ routine. Thanks again! Mike

 

[KeesMacPro]

Quote: "Hi Kees, per your notes on the rest of the process, on the 2018, when choosing the External Mojave volume as the startup disk, I get to the following dialogue box: "A software update is required to use this startup disk. You can update now or select another startup disk."

I am pausing at this stage because A) I don't know if it's referring to whatever version of Mojave is on the 2018 internal vs the software version that's on the External HD Mojave install...but AFAIK I did download and install all necessary Security updates on that prior to migrating my 2012 HS contents onto it. B) If I update it, could it maybe invoke some sort of restriction designed (T2 or whatever) to prevent cloning Mojave onto an HFS+ disk? Guess I can just go ahead and try it but maybe you or someone else would have an idea on what's going on in this instance and whether that will 'break' anything relative to what I'm trying to do. I do know that people have documented having successfully managed to accomplish this Mojave on HFS+ routine. Thanks again! Mike"

Ok Plan B:
I think it's ok to update , let it proceed.

Once enabled external booting ,check if it boots from the external.
Now boot from internal and migrate all from external .
Install CCC on internal and clone internal to external , this way you'll have a clone made from your original (internal) disk (and all your imported data).
Now boot external and format internal to HFS+ and clone external back to internal.

Good Luck!

 

[mikeshep]

Quote: "Hi Kees, per your notes on the rest of the process, on the 2018, when choosing the External Mojave volume as the startup disk, I get to the following dialogue box: "A software update is required to use this startup disk. You can update now or select another startup disk."

I am pausing at this stage because A) I don't know if it's referring to whatever version of Mojave is on the 2018 internal vs the software version that's on the External HD Mojave install...but AFAIK I did download and install all necessary Security updates on that prior to migrating my 2012 HS contents onto it. B) If I update it, could it maybe invoke some sort of restriction designed (T2 or whatever) to prevent cloning Mojave onto an HFS+ disk? Guess I can just go ahead and try it but maybe you or someone else would have an idea on what's going on in this instance and whether that will 'break' anything relative to what I'm trying to do. I do know that people have documented having successfully managed to accomplish this Mojave on HFS+ routine. Thanks again! Mike"

Ok Plan B:
I think it's ok to update , let it proceed.

Once enabled external booting ,check if it boots from the external.
Now boot from internal and migrate all from external .
Install CCC on internal and clone internal to external , this way you'll have a clone made from your original (internal) disk (and all your imported data).
Now boot external and format internal to HFS+ and clone external back to internal.

Good Luck!

Well, another curveball... Upon opting for the update, a new dialogue presents: "An error occurred installing the update" - and this repeats indefinitely upon subsequent tries...

What's throwing me off is that this Mojave external volume HAS booted when selected in the 2012
StartUp disk menu. When selected from the 2018, the error message appears.

If I can't accomplish Mojave on HFS+, my only option is to dedicate an external SSD running HFS+ and have the app on APFS Internal . The legacy app will 'run' on Mojave - it just won't write and save files to APFS on the same volume as the application itself. An inconvenience for sure. It's looking bleak, but something in me wants to still get it done because I have definitely seen others attest to being able to put Mojave on an HFS+. Question is if it's something elementary I'm overlooking - or whether Apple has done something that effectively blocks this. Perhaps I need to try creating a new external Mojave volume on a different external and try it again
but at a certain point, I have to "call it" and give in once again to the proprietary Apple machine; )

 

[saudor]

What happens if you try to run the problematic app from a Hfs volume while booted into apfs mojave (instead of copying it to the applications folder)

 

[mikeshep]

What happens if you try to run the problematic app from a Hfs volume while booted into apfs mojave (instead of copying it to the applications folder)

That is an interesting idea. Would be glad to try it if all else fails. I assume that HFS+ volume would have to live on an External HD, and I would then configure the write/save disk as the same volume --- just keep that as a sort of separate, dedicated 'environment' just for that one app, if I understand the idea correctly?

 

[saudor]

That is an interesting idea. Would be glad to try it if all else fails. I assume that HFS+ volume would have to live on an External HD, and I would then configure the write/save disk as the same volume --- just keep that as a sort of separate, dedicated 'environment' just for that one app, if I understand the idea correctly?

Yeah a separate physical volume is one option but you can also run it from a read-write sparse bundle formatted as HFS (use Disk Utility to create the sparse bundle). In fact, many apps can be run directly from their disk images (without copying it to applications) so it's worth a shot.

That being said, does that app have any specific requirements like no case sensitive volumes, etc? It's really odd that an app would complain about the file system itself since that stuff should be transparent and handled by the OS. If it expects a case insensitive volume but is installed on a case sensitive one, it would complain.

 

[KeesMacPro]

I agree with @saudor : try if you can get this app working outside the application folder , if so create a small volume e.g. a partition or sparse bundle on the internal disk.

I've got lots of apps e.g. Logic Pro that are installed in applications but read/write to another volume.
So, that could be a working option too (I dont know what app is the protagonist here).


After all going through all this hassle and complications with the T2 , for just 1 app is perhaps beyond the goal...
If you migrate all to the internal disk, you're basically good to go and have a "by the book" install !

Hope all works out as you wish!

 

[mikeshep]

Thanks for your additional comments! So I have learned the hard way about how overly restrictive the newer OS security features are vs older ones...Lots of trial and error. I am drifting toward the notion of accepting APFS and doing a partition or external HFS which i THINK i would be “allowed” to do by the insidious Security Settings that can be adjusted via Recovery boot.

I figured I’d just migrate my old data thats on a Mojave APFS backup onto the new Mini via Migration Assistant, and check things out.
Its been so long since i’ve used MA so i’m curious...Theres an option to “replace” the existing User on the target Mac with the User data of the source account, Or, create a “new user” and keep the one thats already on the target/new Mini. Would that be the safer way? I had to create that User just so i could access the Security Settings to allow a boot from the external HD as it was blocking even that! ..I figure I could simply delete it once the migrated User acct is in place? (and reclaim the drive space). I already had to authorize the new User name as an admin to make root security and permissions changes - i dont know if replacing the name would mean i need to re-do all that if the name becomes unrecognized?

Other thing is whether to use CCC instead, for the data migration. One nice thing w/ CCC is being able to selectively leave out stuff i dont need -whereas MA brings over everything... but, this is not a “cloning situation.

I am intrigued with the partitioned HFS volume idea for my legacy software ‘workspace’ This trying to trick the Mac is a fatiguing pain. Once I get my data and apps moved to the new internal I can experiment.

Thanks again for your help,

Mike

 

[KeesMacPro]

Your very welcome Mike!

Indeed, Apple's ways "to keep all safe" are mysterious ....🙄

About the user accounts: you can also keep the "2018" account for now and when 100% sure you dont need it , erase it later when logged in on the account that comes from your 2012 setup. Note that to do that your account must be set to a admin privileged one.
Things get confusing when e.g. importing user account with the same name. Merging isn't 100% failproof in my experience, but deleting a user account later on, is always possible and perhaps the safest way.
I would (if possible) try to avoid editing user account names , the OS doesnt like jokes with user accounts I've noticed...


I would recommend to use MA , because this way the OS remains exactly as it was when it was installed on this specific device. Unfortunately this may imply to manually delete some stuff you no longer need (before or after the migration).
CCC is a very nice tool , but I would use it for backups after migrating everything on the 2018 (and then clone the internal 2018> backup clone external).

The idea of a HFS partition/drive is very interesting, keep us posted !

BTW: in case of a HFS partition: make sure DiskUtility is set to "show all devices" so you're creating a partition on the device itself and not inside one of the APFS containers.

 

[MarkC426]

This is the first I have heard of an app not writing to APFS formatted drives.....?
Surely if this is an issue, will it actually work in Mojave then.

What is the app?
I have plenty of old apps which continue to work.

 

[mikeshep]

This is the first I have heard of an app not writing to APFS formatted drives.....?
Surely if this is an issue, will it actually work in Mojave then.

What is the app?
I have plenty of old apps which continue to work.

Hi, til I test it for myself I can't confirm but any diehard users still around and talking about this app, which is called Peak -audio editing/record software - have made mention that it works, except for being able to write to/save/read
created files "in" Mojave - App is apparently still stable enough to work in Mojave - tho again, til i get it on there to
check it out, i don't know if some plugins become inoperable or some glitches appear in the user interface. This
app was orphaned a few years ago but a limited support path still exists and I can't convince the original designer
to reintroduce it...which is unfortunate because it's the best I've ever known for what it does and the UI is unparalleled. If you've heard of Twisted Wave - that is essentially based on Peak - and would probably be my go-to if required -
Other thing is, it's 32-bit and Mojave is the end of the line in that respect - of course so are the Macs that will run
it also which is also a confounding thing - that there will be no way to even stay on Mojave on a newer machine.

 

[KeesMacPro]

this app, which is called Peak -audio editing/record software

Wow!
I've done a few editing/mastering jobs with Peak, brings back memories, because that's about 20 years ago I think!
Somehow I thought it was discontinued / not supported anymore on newer Mac OSes.... (?)
Keep me posted

 

[MarkC426]

I have Peak LE7.
It works on my Mac (with Mojave).
I havn't used it for years, but just opened a file and saved to desktop, no problem.

Edit: TBH, any kind of media should be writing to a different disk than the OS anyway.
So can you not connect an external disk in HFS+ for data (should be fast enough with TB3).

 

[mikeshep]

I have Peak LE7.
It works on my Mac (with Mojave).
I havn't used it for years, but just opened a file and saved to desktop, no problem.

Edit: TBH, any kind of media should be writing to a different disk than the OS anyway.
So can you not connect an external disk in HFS+ for data (should be fast enough with TB3).

Hi, good to hear that - Yeah there's a certain degree of convenience esp. on a laptop to being able to record/save on
the same volume that contains the app - Peak has been picky about permissions in the past... (alot of Plosives there; )
but I know from experience and that of others that yes, an external data drive - fast TB3 especially - should work
fine in Mojave. Interesting that you can open/save a Peak file on Mojave - As i say, need to experiment once I get the
migration done and see if i can in fact 'write' to the same volume, because i think just opening an existing file in APFS
wouldn't be an issue.. it's the write/save of a new document that i'd need to test.

My work involves having to cut and send audio fairly quickly and the external is only a slight hindrance
in that i have to navigate out of the main drive to the external to open and edit, and save... then upload or
attach to email. It's nice to just work with a file on the desktop. (Maybe I'm overthinking it LOL)

As far as Peak, long story but have kept in touch with its creator Steve Berkley who's now at Antares and a few loyal
fans have begged him to reissue it and update for newer OS's but no luck - (for years: ). There is a link somewhere on the Antares site that brings you to a still-existing Peak support area - again, it's limited, but he did create an option to buy a "legacy copy"(p7) of Peak just a couple of years ago which is still up, and "authorizations" can still be requested.

 

[MarkC426]

From your first post I thought it was a Mac mini.
In the long term, your system drive will get hammered, with constant read/write with audio files.

 

[mikeshep]

Hi, good to hear that - Yeah there's a certain degree of convenience esp. on a laptop to being able to record/save on
the same volume that contains the app - Peak has been picky about permissions in the past... (alot of Plosives there; )
but I know from experience and that of others that yes, an external data drive - fast TB3 especially - should work
fine in Mojave. Interesting that you can open/save a Peak file on Mojave - As i say, need to experiment once I get the
migration done and see if i can in fact 'write' to the same volume, because i think just opening an existing file in APFS
wouldn't be an issue.. it's the write/save of a new document that i'd need to test.

My work involves having to cut and send audio fairly quickly and the external is only a slight hindrance
in that i have to navigate out of the main drive to the external to open and edit, and save... then upload or
attach to email. It's nice to just work with a file on the desktop. (Maybe I'm overthinking it LOL)

As far as Peak, long story but have kept in touch with its creator Steve Berkley who's now at Antares and a few loyal
fans have begged him to reissue it and update for newer OS's but no luck - (for years: ). There is a link somewhere on the Antares site that brings you to a still-existing Peak support area - again, it's limited, but he did create an option to buy a "legacy copy"(p7) of Peak just a couple of years ago which is still up, and "authorizations" can still be requested.

From your first post I thought it was a Mac mini.
In the long term, your system drive will get hammered, with constant read/write with audio files.

 

[mikeshep]

It's a Mini, tho I have occasion to use a laptop with the same app. Excellent point on
the system drive - I know that's something that's been mentioned to me and don't know
why I forgot about it. I do have to do a lot of file cleaning but yes, I'm inclined to
go external SSD with TB3 given the speed

 

[Fishrrman]

OP:

I had my 2018 Mini setup with Mojave running in HFS+. It wasn't that hard.

FIRST:
Boot to the recovery partition.
Open "Startup Security" and DISABLE it as much as it can be disabled.

Open terminal.
Type:
csrutil disable
and hit return, then enter your password when prompted.
This disables System Integrity Protection.

I have DISABLED all this stuff, and will never turn such features on again.
Reboot to make these changes effective.
Once you've rebooted, open terminal and type
csrutil status
It should show "disabled".

NOW you are ready to proceed with the actual copying.

You'll need CarbonCopyCloner.
CCC is FREE to download and use for 30 days.

You'll need a USB3 SSD, as large as the internal SSD in the Mini (or at least as large as "how much stuff" you have on the Mini's internal drive).
Don't bother with thunderbolt.

Next:
Use disk utility to erase the external SSD to "Mac OS extended with journaling enabled", GUID partition format.

Now:
Use CCC to clone the contents of the Mini to the SSD.
I would accept all of CCC's defaults "as they are".

Next, BOOT FROM the SSD.
Hold down the option key at boot until the startup manager appears, then select the SSD and hit return.
Do you get a good boot?
If so, FINE, we're a good ways there.

Now...
Open disk utility.
IMPORTANT IMPORTANT IMPORTANT !!!
Go to the "view" menu and choose "show all devices" -- you MUST do this.

On the left, select the topmost line that represents the physical drive inside the Mini.
Click "erase" and again choose "Mac OS extended with journaling enabled, GUID partition format"
... and give it a try.
Do you get "a good erase and remount of the drive"?
If so, that's another big step.

Quit disk utility and re-open CCC.
Now, "re-clone" the contents of the backup BACK TO the internal drive.

When done, everything should "be back where it was" -- but now on a drive that is HFS+.

Power down, all the way off.
DISCONNECT the SSD
REBOOT the Mini.
Do you get a good reboot?
If so, recheck the startup disk pref pane, and you should be done.

BE AWARE:
Software update NO LONGER WORKS properly when the drive is HFS+.
There may be a workaround somewhere, but I didn't find it.

PRINT THIS OUT, check off as you go along.

 

[mikeshep]

OP:

I had my 2018 Mini setup with Mojave running in HFS+. It wasn't that hard.

FIRST:
Boot to the recovery partition.
Open "Startup Security" and DISABLE it as much as it can be disabled.

Open terminal.
Type:
csrutil disable
and hit return, then enter your password when prompted.
This disables System Integrity Protection.

I have DISABLED all this stuff, and will never turn such features on again.
Reboot to make these changes effective.
Once you've rebooted, open terminal and type
csrutil status
It should show "disabled".

NOW you are ready to proceed with the actual copying.

You'll need CarbonCopyCloner.
CCC is FREE to download and use for 30 days.

You'll need a USB3 SSD, as large as the internal SSD in the Mini (or at least as large as "how much stuff" you have on the Mini's internal drive).
Don't bother with thunderbolt.

Next:
Use disk utility to erase the external SSD to "Mac OS extended with journaling enabled", GUID partition format.

Now:
Use CCC to clone the contents of the Mini to the SSD.
I would accept all of CCC's defaults "as they are".

Next, BOOT FROM the SSD.
Hold down the option key at boot until the startup manager appears, then select the SSD and hit return.
Do you get a good boot?
If so, FINE, we're a good ways there.

Now...
Open disk utility.
IMPORTANT IMPORTANT IMPORTANT !!!
Go to the "view" menu and choose "show all devices" -- you MUST do this.

On the left, select the topmost line that represents the physical drive inside the Mini.
Click "erase" and again choose "Mac OS extended with journaling enabled, GUID partition format"
... and give it a try.
Do you get "a good erase and remount of the drive"?
If so, that's another big step.

Quit disk utility and re-open CCC.
Now, "re-clone" the contents of the backup BACK TO the internal drive.

When done, everything should "be back where it was" -- but now on a drive that is HFS+.

Power down, all the way off.
DISCONNECT the SSD
REBOOT the Mini.
Do you get a good reboot?
If so, recheck the startup disk pref pane, and you should be done.

BE AWARE:
Software update NO LONGER WORKS properly when the drive is HFS+.
There may be a workaround somewhere, but I didn't find it.

PRINT THIS OUT, check off as you go along.

Hi and thanks for this! I actually recall seeing your posts on this in the past and appreciate the step-by step
outline. Very helpful. Actually i'm in a testing phase with Mojave now that I migrated to the 2018 Mini
just to see if the one legacy app i'm concerned about behaves oddly under the APFS format. I think I'm able to verify that this audio app (Peak) has a problem writing-to/saving a file on the APFS volume, but WILL write/save to an external HD formatted for HFS+...and with TB3 speed, that might just be my choice rather than mess with the cloning for HFS. It's starting to seem like more trouble than its worth to do all this basically just to create a friendlier environment for that one legacy app...so long as it does write to and save to an external HFS ok. And as was pointed out earlier here, it may be smarter to use a different volume than the APFS internal for this anyway...just to avoid a lot of temp files in the System that are created each time I record/save on the internal. That all being said I do have another 2018 Mini that i got as part of a package deal with the one I'm updating now - and perhaps could try your method on That one,
just to see how it goes. To maintain Mojave there's no hardware options after this 'generation' of Macs since Apple's dropping 32-bit app support beyond this point so perhaps a good thing to have a spare Mojave machine anyway.
Don't know if there's any market left for 2012 Minis but i'm sitting on about 5 of them now used in multiple locations around my studio/offices and all on HiSierra. I hope to unload all but one for office duty once this situation with Mojave is stable.

Much appreciated!