How Do I Leave the Apple Eco System

[bopajuice]

I am curious if anyone else was able to leave the Apple eco-system without too much issue.

It is not as easy for me because not only am I invested in hardware, but software and peripherals as well.

A few weeks ago I purchased a Razer Blade Stealth 13" Laptop from Razer, and found it to be a really nice machine. I thought I would start off slow replacing my MacBook Air, and set it up to use Windows in a work environment. The machine was fast, well built, thinner than my air, and the screen and resolution were fantastic. All went well until I tried to get some work done.

The first problem I had was with Outlook 2016. It comes as part of Office 365. When I tried to set up an exchange email account to access my corporate email, I found that with the Windows 2016 version the manual settings have been limited or eliminated, making it almost impossible to set up my email account on the corporate server. Without getting into too much detail, I had to go online and find a work around, setting the email up manually with the settings it did let me enter, and then hitting escape and enter at random intervals until it let me go to the next screen and complete the setup. Very unnerving. It's crazy considering Outlook for MacOS was easy to set up as an Exchange account. No issues at all.

Second, was when I had some video clips that I needed to trim. I would have had to buy software to do the edits. Apple Quicktime lets you trim clips right out the box.

Third was using PDF's. Apple Preview works really well, and makes it easy to merge, edit, and mark up PDF's. In Windows outside of buying Adobe Acrobat, you have to either use an online site to merge PDF's or try a bunch of different apps to try and find one that works. Windows handling of PDF's in general is horrible. Really bad. I never found a program that comes even close to the simplicity of Preview.

Lastly, it would have taken a lot of work to transfer everything over. I would have had to deal with my photo libraries. I have terabytes of Photos and iPhotos libraries. Some of my music libraries, are encoded with Apple Lossless. I would have had to reformat my external drives to be accessible to Windows. Which would have meant moving a bunch of data around back and forth between drives.

Turned out to be a lot of work. More than I thought. I just do not have the time to spend hours redoing everything. Or try to find programs to replace what MacOS does right out of the box.

Not to mention my wife likes Photos, and likes to do basic edits and print photos. She would have most likely stayed with Apple. There was hope she would get used to Windows but we never got that far.

That does not even begin to address all my issues. With all the family and friends with iPhones, it would have been a mess trying to find alternatives for FaceTime and iMessage.

Either way, my first attempt to leave the Apple eco system turned out to be too much work for me at the moment. They have done a really good job of building their walled garden around us.

 

[Kingcr]

Can't comment on the Outlook issue, but it doesn't surprise me.

There are free, fairly good programs to trim video. The photos app built into Windows 10 allows this (why they put video editing into the photos app is an enduring mystery). Also, you could use something like VLC. Neither are as nice as QuickTime (IMO), but they can get the job done.

In terms of working with PDF's, I'm sorry to say there isn't anything quite like Preview. Edge can do ink-based annotations and Acrobat Reader can do shapes and signatures for example. But for anything more powerful than that (e.g. re-ordering pages, merging and so on), you'd probably need to resort to paying for 3rd party software (and there's a plethora of options out there that I'm too lazy to list).

If you point the Windows Photos app to your photos, it provides some of the functionality from the Mac Photos app (e.g. gallery view, albums, some basic editing controls). I don't think it's great but it depends on what you're trying to do.

Transferring things over - well that's work to be expected when changing platforms, needs to be planned and takes time.

Honestly though, of the issues you've listed, only Facetime and iMessage are Apple eco-system specific. The rest are related to changing platforms. This is generally not something to rush in to - a lot of your issues could have been uncovered in advance. If you stick with Windows going forwards, you'll be able to find software to get the job done, whether paid or free, and this may involve piecing together several programs to reach your end goal. Same as someone changing platforms the other direction. But the big thing is whether you're prepared to invest the time to identify the best software that meets your needs and change your workflow to use it.

 

[villicodelirant]

I am curious if anyone else was able to leave the Apple eco-system without too much issue.

Yes, but certainly not through Windows.

The first problem I had was with Outlook 2016.

Can't comment, never used the thing.

Second, was when I had some video clips that I needed to trim. I would have had to buy software to do the edits. Apple Quicktime lets you trim clips right out the box.

ffmpeg is free software (meaning that it comes at no cost and that it is free to modify, extend, redistribute for everyone, forever).

It can be used from the command line to trim a video, or you can choose one out of the very many graphical programs that use it as a backend, a small selection of which can be found here

Windows handling of PDF's in general is horrible.

To be more exact, Windows' handling of PDF is non-existent.

Really bad. I never found a program that comes even close to the simplicity of Preview.

Preview is the crown jewel of the Mac OS for something.
Evince is my go-to PDF viewer (which also supports djvu, cbr, etc), but it's strictly a viewer, except for some annotation features.
Has a very beta Windows build as well.

Some of my music libraries, are encoded with Apple Lossless.

Not a problem, ALAC is pretty well supported outside the Mac, why re-encode?

I would have had to reformat my external drives to be accessible to Windows.

Well, you could have been smarter in the first place

I just do not have the time to spend hours redoing everything. Or try to find programs to replace what MacOS does right out of the box.

If your hardware is supported you might find the rather Mac-cy GNOME environment more to your taste, along with its "lifestyle" software suite comprising very nice (if basic) clones of iApps such as Rhythmbox, Shotwell, Geary and Web.

Try Fedora in a virtual machine and see if it works for you.

 

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

Either way, my first attempt to leave the Apple eco system turned out to be too much work for me at the moment. They have done a really good job of building their walled garden around us.

You aren't having issues with a wall because there are nothing that you can't move out - You are having issues leaving the garden behind, because it is more beautiful (Ie. most things just works better).

 

[maflynn]

The first problem I had was with Outlook 2016. It comes as part of Office 365. When I tried to set up an exchange email account to access my corporate email, I found that with the Windows 2016 version the manual settings have been limited or eliminated, making it almost impossible to set up my email account on the corporate server. Without getting into too much detail, I had to go online and find a work around, setting the email up manually with the settings it did let me enter, and then hitting escape and enter at random intervals until it let me go to the next screen and complete the setup. Very unnerving. It's crazy considering Outlook for MacOS was easy to set up as an Exchange account. No issues at all.

Did you try postbox, or Thunderbird? Both support Exchange (provided its through iMAP). Do you reach out to your IT department on getting help on this?

Third was using PDF's. Apple Preview works really well, and makes it easy to merge, edit, and mark up PDF's. In Windows outside of buying Adobe Acrobat, you have to either use an online site to merge PDF's or try a bunch of different apps to try and find one that works. Windows handling of PDF's in general is horrible. Really bad. I never found a program that comes even close to the simplicity of Preview.

I prefer Acrobat for such tasks but year Preview is very powerful, there are also free (or cheap) pdf editting tools out there.
The best PDF editors, PDF Expert

Turned out to be a lot of work. More than I thought. I just do not have the time to spend hours redoing everything. Or try to find programs to replace what MacOS does right out of the box.

Just my $.02 but I think if some pre-planning was done your experience might a bit different. I'm not criticizing you but rather pointing out that the platforms are very different and doing some due diligence would have allowed you to get your ducks in a row, i.e., how to migrate terebytes of data, and/or what apps will you need to replace what's on OS X. There will always be bumps in the road such as the problems with outlook. Even in the corporate world, many people don't like outlook.

Either way, my first attempt to leave the Apple eco system turned out to be too much work for me at the moment. They have done a really good job of building their walled garden around us.

One reason we have so many built in apps/services is because when OS X was first released there was a dearth of software available. Steve Jobs wanted to give Mac users the ability to easily do things, like PDF management without needing to wait for adobe. No matter how you slice it, there are things in OS X that makes life easier. Preview and quick look are examples of unsung heros that people don't realize how much they use and need until they move off the platform.

 

[bopajuice]

Did you try postbox, or Thunderbird? Both support Exchange (provided its through iMAP). Do you reach out to your IT department on getting help on this?


I prefer Acrobat for such tasks but year Preview is very powerful, there are also free (or cheap) pdf editting tools out there.
The best PDF editors, PDF Expert


Just my $.02 but I think if some pre-planning was done your experience might a bit different. I'm not criticizing you but rather pointing out that the platforms are very different and doing some due diligence would have allowed you to get your ducks in a row, i.e., how to migrate terebytes of data, and/or what apps will you need to replace what's on OS X. There will always be bumps in the road such as the problems with outlook. Even in the corporate world, many people don't like outlook.


One reason we have so many built in apps/services is because when OS X was first released there was a dearth of software available. Steve Jobs wanted to give Mac users the ability to easily do things, like PDF management without needing to wait for adobe. No matter how you slice it, there are things in OS X that makes life easier. Preview and quick look are examples of unsung heros that people don't realize how much they use and need until they move off the platform.

Thanks for the advice and info. The situation I encountered in Outlook was something that started to happen in the 2016 version and is documented. The 2013 version was still manually configurable. According to what I read the issue has to do with Activesync only supporting mobile devices and not the desktop program. Our IT guy suggested I use their web based solution to access my email. He designed our web based portal system from scratch and does not appear to take suggestions or comments too lightly. I preferred to use Outlook and integrate contacts and Calendars. I was going to use Outlook for all my email not just the corporate stuff, so I could sync across devices. So in a nutshell he was not much help and I was on my own. I got it working but it was a pain.

You are right about my lack of planning. I did not anticipate having to research Apps and solutions. In my defense I have had issues trying to find storage and archiving solutions for my photos for a long time.

In the end I just did not think it would take that long to do the switch. I assumed there would be comparable programs in each platform, I would move the data, and figure out how to use the new software as I went.

I'd be curious to know if others have attempted the switch and what was the result.

 

[TTTedP]

I'd be curious to know if others have attempted the switch and what was the result.

Been a Mac / iOS user since 2007. I go through this every 6 months (get fed up with Apple and decide to switch). I am fortunate to have an Android/Windows backup kit through work that I dont use. The only thing I have found is I never make it more than a few days before switching everything back to Apple.

The things I find a very hard time shaking loose;

• The connected ecosystem - everything under one roof. Less to manage. Rather than "it just works", it's more like "it works the way I like it"
• Security / Privacy (or the illusion thereof) - Safari ad blocker, iOS system wide ad blocker. Apple's supposed respect for privacy. Every time I use my Google stuff, I am both amazed and dismayed at how good / invasive they are. In the end I find myself wanting to run from that level of data gathering
• The lack of polish with non-Apple hardware. Yes, the new Lenovos, Dell's and HP's all look good. But they dont have that solid feeling like an Apple device. There's just enough flimsy plastic or feel that will come up somewhere to annoy me.
• Higher resell. I usually upgrade 1-2x per year and the Apple stuff tends to fetch a 10-25% resell premium.

The things about Apple that gnaw at me

• The lack of updates (I like new stuff and waiting once a year for my Apple fix is getting clinically ridiculous)
• The prices. I'm getting past the "shut up and take my money" phase with Apple. I am much more deliberate about thinking what's the best hardware for my needs. Two Apple things I have recently left behind (routers > went with Ubiquiti and watches > went with Garmin). The prices they are asking these days are insulting. I've owned a few BMWs and it's the same thing. That level of expenditure in today's world is not necessary. Older BMWs were cool sports cars. The new ones are a German Buick. Save your money. A new Honda is 90% as good. When Angela Ahrendts came on board, they said they would start taking the brand more up market and I don't think it's what hardcore tech people want to see. I even found myself embarrassed recently sitting at a conference and realizing that everything on my person was Apple (new MBP, phone X, watch). I felt like some douche showing off.
• Apple's move away from good tech and more as a lifestyle brand. This I find very polarizing. Not everyone is going to identify with the new Apple and it's vision of the world.
• The rising wall. I used to love the walled garden analogy. It's cozy there. The problem is I am starting to notice that they are adding layers to heighten the wall. I don't see it coming down anytime soon on Apple's part.

Lastly, I think some of what we are all expressing about Apple is part of the normal product / marketing lifecycle. Have you seen the thread on here about the open letter from a well know developer and his concerns about Apple? It's over 69 pages and many, many, many posts are from longtime 20+ year Apple die-hards.

Apple is definitely leaving some of us behind. You are smart to start looking over the wall.

(a few small edits)
[doublepost=1529432481][/doublepost]https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...d-state-of-macintosh-hardware.2123451/page-41 is the other thread in case you haven't seen it. So much gold and opinion about Apple in there.

 

[Kingcr]

I feel much the same way as @TTTedP. But there is no perfect solution, even on the other side of the wall and therein lies the rub.

I'm a developer by trade so I probably evaluate platforms differently to most end-users. From where I stand, the current landscape is quite ironic.

On the one hand there is Apple - purveyor of shiny hardware devices - that doesn't produce hardware I like any more. Sure, the new Mac's look good, but they're just appliances now: they aren't end-user maintainable/upgradeable. I could accept that if they weren't also mostly underpowered at a specific price point. Also, if you're going to build an appliance, it had best be super reliable and not prone to all the xyz-gate issues we've seen over the years.

Then, on the other hand you have Microsoft - the "intelligent" cloud/edge software provider - that produces iffy software in many cases. At its core, Windows 10 is performant and generally stable. But the same cannot be said for many of their consumer apps. And the UI is just a mess in so many ways - from touch controls displacing keyboard in many apps, the dumbing down of UWP apps, legacy UI cruft, the list goes on. If I never saw another hamburger menu in a desktop app, I'd be quite happy. But again, I could accept all of this (it is improving slowly after all) if Microsoft would just build apps that treat users like adults. I really don't want to rate every app I use. I don't want to use a Microsoft account for everything and I can remember my own password, thanks.

Rant over, what I'm getting at is how important it is not to have a knee-jerk reaction and move platforms. You'll have to put up with some nonsense no matter which you choose and so moving "without too much issue" as the OP asked generally isn't feasible if you have a reasonable set of requirements you're trying to meet. There will be issues and so you need a good reason to move. Speaking of which, what was your motivation, @bopajuice?

 

[villicodelirant]

• The lack of polish with non-Apple hardware. Yes, the new Lenovos, Dell's and HP's all look good. But they dont have that solid feeling like an Apple device. There's just enough flimsy plastic or feel that will come up somewhere to annoy me.

You need to name some names here.
Lenovo, Dell and HP all make machines in the $200-$5000 range.

Are you saying that a XPS 13 feels "flimsier" than a MBA or that any ThinkPad keyboard does not feel as "solid" as the butterfly abominations that Apple is currently shipping?

 

[TTTedP]

You need to name some names here.
Lenovo, Dell and HP all make machines in the $200-$5000 range.

Are you saying that a XPS 13 feels "flimsier" than a MBA or that any ThinkPad keyboard does not feel as "solid" as the butterfly abominations that Apple is currently shipping?

no, you're correct there. I was generalizing which can be dangerous. I used to walk right past all the Windows PC's in the computer store. 2017 was the year I started looking and I'll do a drive by every few months. I'll be drawn to something shiny and cool (like maybe the HP Spectre) only to push on the case and watch it flex. My rMBP case doesn't flex. Or I will grab a Surface Book and watch the lid wobble back and forth from being top heavy. My rMBP doesn't wobble.

But I hear you, there are some very good examples made by Dell and Lenovo. The problem I run into when considering them is they are the same price usually as the rMBP. Saving a few $$ is part of the motivator for switching. If I am paying the same amount, I might as well stay with Apple (at least until Apple does more things to push me out which seems to be increasing the last two years).
[doublepost=1529539262][/doublepost]I will admit, I use a bluetooth keyboard with my rMBP so I dont have much complaints about their new keyboard . Kidding of course.

 

[kazmac]

I found Windows versions of most of the software I am using on a Mac (and will have to look again), it is more understanding and learning how to work with w10 and finding hardware I want right now.

Lots of beautiful laptops, but no desktops that appeal to me yet. Really hope we get a Surface Studio 2.

Such great advice in this thread.

 

[Queen6]

I found Windows versions of most of the software I am using on a Mac (and will have to look again), it is more understanding and learning how to work with w10 and finding hardware I want right now.

Lots of beautiful laptops, but no desktops that appeal to me yet. Really hope we get a Surface Studio 2.

Such great advice in this thread.

Surface Studio is a tremendous "concept" however it very much needs stronger hardware. I know many who are in creative fields in the same situation hoping for a meaningful update the Surface Studio. They too have simply given up on Apple being remotely capable of being innovative, imaginative and performant, sadly preferring to "suck up" the easy money

W10 desktop, personally I would build it myself; big, water cooled, massive performance & storage, out of sight and out of mind, multi display's on a clean desk. I want my focus on the work at hand, nothing else...

I would want to only physically interact with the computer on a yearly basis for upgrades and cleaning of the filters etc. I like Pen & Touch although for myself it's more useful and confined to far smaller devices

Q-6

 

[kazmac]

Surface Studio is a tremendous "concept" however it very much needs stronger hardware. I know many who are in creative fields in the same situation hoping for a meaningful update the Surface Studio. They too have simply given up on Apple being remotely capable of being innovative, imaginative and performant, sadly preferring to "suck up" the easy money

W10 desktop, personally I would build it myself; big, water cooled, massive performance & storage, out of sight and out of mind, multi display's on a clean desk. I want my focus on the work at hand, nothing else...

I would want to only physically interact with the computer on a yearly basis for upgrades and cleaning of the filters etc. I like Pen & Touch although for myself it's more useful and confined to far smaller devices

Q-6

I realize that besides the frustrating hardware and software issues, and the obnoxious overpricing, Apple have been pushing me away by removing the headphone jack from the phone, making iTunes much more complicated to use, and just the unwelcome vibe I feel in their stores now. I do not want dongles or to socialize at your store.

Agree on the Surface Studio, my Microsoft loving sibling thought for sure MS updated the Surface Studio, but she was surprised to hear it's still Skylake, fusion drive and 980 graphics. I am not surprised about creatives wanting much better alternatives.

Lenovo teased a new version of their Legion cube last month, so I think that might be what I go with and just get a Wacom tablet for art once I am settled with a new setup. I was also looking at pre-built NUCs, but I need to research those more.

I've never built a machine (and think it's amazing that people do), so I would buy a system that someone builds to order. Not sure if I will still be doing the amount of video conversions and image editing that I do now though (my main reason for the video conversions/image editing may be closing up shop, though I am hoping to get official word from the home office). So for me, the system would be for design, art and writing, and less video at this point.

If the Surface Pro is still on sale when I am paid for my iPad Pro trade in, I might pick up one of those to get the feel for a purely MS experience. In a way, I am excited. I like to learn new tech and since Affinity makes their apps for Windows too, perhaps that is what will push me toward actually learning how to use Affinity's products.

I am kind of losing my desire to watch videos on my phone, but if there's a way that I can get my ripped movies onto an Android phone without an MicroSD or allowing system access to developers, I'd be happy to hear that too.

 

[villicodelirant]

Lenovo teased a new version of their Legion cube last month, so I think that might be what I go with and just get a Wacom tablet for art once I am settled with a new setup. I was also looking at pre-built NUCs, but I need to research those more.

I've never built a machine (and think it's amazing that people do), so I would buy a system that someone builds to order. Not sure if I will still be doing the amount of video conversions and image editing that I do now though (my main reason for the video conversions/image editing may be closing up shop, though I am hoping to get official word from the home office). So for me, the system would be for design, art and writing, and less video at this point.

I'll have to ask why you're looking at a "gaming" (read: sporting fancy LEDs) tower then

 

[kazmac]

I'll have to ask why you're looking at a "gaming" (read: sporting fancy LEDs) tower then

Fair question, for the extra horsepower for video conversion etc.. It is also smaller than the usual tower and future proofing (if that is even possible at this point). Of course, I would probably be destructed by those LEDs.

 

[artfossil]

 

[maflynn]

Fair question, for the extra horsepower for video conversion etc.. It is also smaller than the usual tower and future proofing (if that is even possible at this point). Of course, I would probably be destructed by those LEDs.

I agree, you get more bang for your buck, and I think its designed to handle the heat better, I may be wrong on that point, but that's my perspective.

Lenovo teased a new version of their Legion cube last month, so I think that might be what I go with and just get a Wacom tablet for art once I am settled with a new setup. I was also looking at pre-built NUCs, but I need to research those more.

for me their Y730 laptop (coffee lake version) is not out yet. Plus the design looks like its a thick laptop, I'm liking the thin designs, since I have a MBP. Yes for all of the faults that Apple is obsessed with thinness, thanks to them, I do not like overly thick laptops

 

[kazmac]

I agree, you get more bang for your buck, and I think its designed to handle the heat better, I may be wrong on that point, but that's my perspective.


for me their Y730 laptop (coffee lake version) is not out yet. Plus the design looks like its a thick laptop, I'm liking the thin designs, since I have a MBP. Yes for all of the faults that Apple is obsessed with thinness, thanks to them, I do not like overly thick laptops

Not a fan of thick clunky looking gaming laptops either. Desktops and towers that is different.

The Cube looks kind of neat though.

 

[kazmac]

The OP brought up a good point of formatting drives for Windows.

I’ve got several TB of movies I no longer own ripped onto Mac drives. If I reformat those drives I’ll lose those movies right? Also a lot of my writing and art.

The iTunes purchases I am not worried about, but this is one of the big hurdles of leaving the ecosystem.

 

[Shanghaichica]

You aren't having issues with a wall because there are nothing that you can't move out - You are having issues leaving the garden behind, because it is more beautiful (Ie. most things just works better).

If you have to work hard and spend time moving to other products then it's simply not worth it imo, particularly when you have something that works well.

I have an S9 plus. I try out a Samsung flagship every year. It's always as my secondary phone and I keep it for a few months before selling it on. It's enough to curb my curiosity for another year. However I have no desire to leave the Apple ecosystem.

 

[Queen6]

The OP brought up a good point of formatting drives for Windows.

I’ve got several TB of movies I no longer own ripped onto Mac drives. If I reformat those drives I’ll lose those movies right? Also a lot of my writing and art.

The iTunes purchases I am not worried about, but this is one of the big hurdles of leaving the ecosystem.

Copy the data to a new NTFS drive with a Mac that has NTFS write enabled. Seagate has a free utility that enables NTFS disk writes for Mac's.

Q-6

 

[kazmac]

Copy the data to a new NTFS drive with a Mac that has NTFS write enabled. Seagate has a free utility that enables NTFS disk writes for Mac's.

Q-6

Thank you very much (as always).

 

[Queen6]

Thank you very much (as always).

Any problem finding the Seagate link just PM me.

Q-6

 

[villicodelirant]

I agree, you get more bang for your buck, and I think its designed to handle the heat better, I may be wrong on that point, but that's my perspective.

I don't know about performance per dollar, but all major manufacturers offer high end desktops as well as workstation class machines that ought to have no problem with heat (and probably are more reliable, sporting ECC and RAID disks out of the box); there are also boutique manufacturers like Boxx.

They're costly, but there is a thriving used market for those.

Personally, I would be wary of the corners probably being cut in a gaming machine, or of the money that goes into fancy leds instead of components.

 

[xraydoc]

The OP brings up similar issues to what I face every time I think about doing the same thing. While I always think it would be easier to be on Windows because of work issues, I always run in to these same roadblocks where staying on the Mac OS would make other things easier.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Still not sure which way to go... pain either way...