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swealpha

macrumors regular
Original poster
Feb 5, 2017
106
17
Hello!

Today I have a macbook pro mid 2014 with Big Sur which is enough for my work until it gets way too old.

Bootable external hard disk clone for cold storage seems completely dead, APFS is extremely slow on mechanical disks and SSD is not a good option for cold storage. I feel trapped.

How do you professional mac guys do your backups? I need to completely re-evaluate my backup routines.

(Up until High Sierra I previously had two different mechanical disks in 2 different locations. Mac OS Extended encrypted.)


My wishes are:
*Easy to move entire OS with files to newer macbook when my old mid 2014 dies.
*Password protected. Encrypted.
*Everything local, not cloud. Dont trust it.

Thanks so much for the help.
 
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HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
Turn on Time Machine, let it back up to TWO HDDs at least 3X larger than the total capacity of the Mac(s) you have in the household. If you anticipate using more storage in the next few years, buy 3X THAT storage: big HDDs are cheap.

When you have BOTH fully backed up (the first backup will take a LONG time), store one of them OFFsite (I use a bank safe deposit box but any secure place with reasonably easy access for you can work). Regularly rotate the ONsite TM backup drive and the OFFsite drive.

Why the OFFsite part? That's the only (non-cloud) way to protect against fire/flood/theft scenarios. It's no good to have only one backup drive stored WITH the computer(s) being backed up. Those very real scenarios can easily take out all of the tech at the home.

After the lengthy-to-very-lengthy first backups to each of those drives, TM works in the background, backing up any file changes approx. every hour. You don't have to think about it or take some specific action to trigger a backup. These hourly backups are usually very quick as it's only the stuff that has changed in that hour that needs to be updated on the backup.

Put a recurring reminder in your Calendar to remind you to swap the drives at whatever pace makes the most sense for you. For me, that's every 30 days... which means a worst-case scenario for me is fire/flood/theft on day 29. I'm regularly synching latest files between a Mac desktop and a MB (and also doing a THIRD TM backup to a Synology NAS), so my worst case is actually not so bad. But pick your HDD swap date accordingly. Every 2 weeks? Every week? Bi-monthly?

And that's all there is to it. It basically "just works" well.

Alternatively, apps like Super Duper and Carbon Copy Cloner are popular for this sort of thing too. Some Mac people much prefer those to TM but I find TM works just fine for me.

No need to get hung up on SSD speed vs. HDD. The latter is perfectly fine for this, much cheaper and you can buy much more capacity for your backups. I just use bare drives in a bare drive dock with a plastic HDD case for offsite storage... but you can also buy drives already in external cases.
 
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ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,918
2,169
Redondo Beach, California
Hello!

Today I have a macbook pro mid 2014 with Big Sur which is enough for my work until it gets way too old.

Bootable external hard disk clone for cold storage seems completely dead, APFS is extremely slow on mechanical disks and SSD is not a good option for cold storage. I feel trapped.

How do you professional mac guys do your backups? I need to completely re-evaluate my backup routines.

(Up until High Sierra I previously had two different mechanical disks in 2 different locations. Mac OS Extended encrypted.)


My wishes are:
*Easy to move entire OS with files to newer macbook when my old mid 2014 dies.
*Password protected. Encrypted.
*Everything local, not cloud. Dont trust it.

Thanks so much for the help.
Time Machine should be your first backup. It works well and does everything you asked for
1) It can be encrypted
2) When you buy a new Mac, the first thing it asks. for is the Time Machine disk so it can transfer the data from the old Mac. TM makes moving the data trivially easy.
3) If you use a real hard drive, then it is local.

You simply leave a standard external disk drive connected to the Mac while you use the Mac and Time Machine will backup all the changes you make every hour. It will keep al the old changes so you can recover to any point in time in the past. You do NOT want a backup system that simply copies the disk and does not preserve older data.

But you asked what professionals do. If your business depends on this data then you want multiple backups. As a dead-minimum, the data should always exist on three different physical media and at two different geographical locations.

But you have a notebook computer and may nt want to be teied down to an external disk. YOu can do the Time Machine backup over WiFi but you will need a second computer to act as a file server and share a disk over the network.

It would be really good to get over your fear of clouds. What do you not trust about them? Maybe they go out of business and close down then you can't get to your data? Yes that could happen. This is why you have multiple, redundant backups. Or do you think somehow they will break your encryption and steel your data? That is mathematically impossible. They would need to know your key. Yes I know, people tend to fear what they don't understand. Education can address that. Use a service like Backblaze and it will continuously mirror your data and keep older copies too. It can use end-to-end encryption.

But maybe you could set-up you own "cloud". Could you trust that? Thisi what we did at on place where I worked. We had offices in three cities. In each office, we installed a large "NAS" or networked file server that used RAID. Software that ran on each server pushed all changes made to the other servers. So all of the data was on all servers. We could in theory have two of the three offices burn down and we would still have all of the data. In addition each office make redundant local backup. This is not so hard to set up. I have a Synology NAS that holds my data. Synology makes it easy connect the NAS to a second NAS that stays sync'd. I use one NAS as th backup target to the primary. Of cours you don't want the two NASes in the samelocation (You did ask for professional level solutions.)

In summary, a professional level backup can be done if you do all of the below:
1) periodically when you can connect an external drive to the notebook and let Time Mache do it's hourly backups
2) share another folder over WiFi and keep the notebook connected to WiFi and do the hourly backup to the shred folder (The Mac can have any number of TM disks attached and will rotate between them)
3) Subscribe to a cloud backup service (either commercial or DIY) and they will maintain an off site backup for you.

If you can not be cured of you fear of clouds then do #1 twice using two different physical disk drives and periodically rotate one to a faraway location. Perhaps you keep a small fire safe at a relative's house and always have a second Time Machine disk there.

All that said, you could do what most users do, nothing. It you buy a new Mac and simply power it on the Mac will mirror al you data to Apple iCloud. This is not the best backup systm and Apple did not intend for it to be. But ths is all most people have.
 
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ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,918
2,169
Redondo Beach, California
Turn on Time Machine, let it back up to TWO HDDs at least 3X larger than the total capacity ...
In the case where you rotate drives to a safe deposit box, you need to rotate three, not two drives if you are going to follow the important rule that says you need the backups to be in two different geographical locations. With only two drives there will be times when both are at home or when both are at the bank. This is bad. To avoid this use three.

The OP asked for a PROFESSIONAL method, so we assume he is not using his computer to watch cat videos on YouTube.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
Nope. I have my computer at home (the master files if you will). I eject the onsite TM backup to take to the bank. At the bank, I make the swap, then bring the offsite one back with me, insert it and it takes over.

And that's keeping it simple for OP. I actually have a number of backups:
  • The master copy on the desktop Mac (the bulk of which is stored externally on a RAID-5 box, which has it's own backup system built in).
  • Most recent "working" files regularly synced to MBpro, so that's 2 full copies before even getting into pure backup options.
  • The onsite TM backup
  • The onsite Synology NAS TM backup (a second "fresh" & complete TM backup always available)
  • Select files synched to iDevices too
  • And sometimes, a few of the freshest working files in Dropbox or iCloud
Since I mostly work from home office, I'm also directly "there" to provide rapid response to the fire/flood/theft scenario.

But even if all of that is lost (but I somehow survive the catastrophe), I still have the up to 30-day-old TM offsite copy at the bank.

I sleep soundly every night with this arrangement.

However, I can agree that additional backups are added security, so if OP can buy 3 HDDs for one more backup, good for OP. And if OP can set up "his own cloud", all the better... especially if the hardware can be distant, such as another city.
 
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jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
First line is a Time Machine backup. For my 2013 Mac Pro this is to a Time Capsule but I will be switching over to a TB2 RAID soon.

For my real work MacBook (the Mac Pro is a VM machine and essentially a NAS), I use an external SSD as a Time Machine drive. I also use SuperDuper to make a clone of my Data volume and send that to my Mac Pro. This is automated for twice a week.

Finally, the Mac Pro is backed up to Backblaze and that backup also contains my copied MacBook clone.

Two copies of my main computer with offsite backup. One copy of my network server with offsite backup. Only a one computer Backblaze account needed.
 

swealpha

macrumors regular
Original poster
Feb 5, 2017
106
17
"HDDs are a better long-term storage device. SDDs tend to be less reliable for long-term storage because of data leaks that begin after a year of being unpowered."

With Toshiba 2,5" canvio advance (apfs encrypted) I get speed of about 20MB/sec. Sucks.

I will try a 7200 RPM disk or 3,5" 5400 RPM.

I mean SSD is no good for cold storage, and HDD is extremely slow.

I feel stuck, cant find a easy solution.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
OP, TM is about as easy as it gets. You are getting hung up on SSD vs. HDD but that is towards irrelevant for backup purposes. The fast speed of SSD will prob offer you no noticeable benefit after the first backup (TM is a background process) and the bulk of the world’s data is stored in very reliable HDDs, including the storage for the bulk of all ‘clouds.’

Get yourself at least 2 big HDD’s and use TM with BOTH of them. Store 1 offsite and regularly rotate the two to keep the offsite backup fresh. A pretty solid backup approach can be as simple as that.
 

MisterSavage

macrumors 601
Nov 10, 2018
4,850
5,749
Portable USB-C powered portable drive and a G-Drive for Time Machine backups. Backblaze for offsite.

Why the OFFsite part? That's the only (non-cloud) way to protect against fire/flood/theft scenarios. It's no good to have only one backup drive stored WITH the computer(s) being backed up. Those very real scenarios can easily take out all of the tech at the home.

Had a person on here argue with me that none of those were possible scenarios for him and therefore he didn't need offsite backups. :rolleyes:
 
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swealpha

macrumors regular
Original poster
Feb 5, 2017
106
17
OP, TM is about as easy as it gets. You are getting hung up on SSD vs. HDD but that is towards irrelevant for backup purposes. The fast speed of SSD will prob offer you no noticeable benefit after the first backup (TM is a background process) and the bulk of the world’s data is stored in very reliable HDDs, including the storage for the bulk of all ‘clouds.’

Get yourself at least 2 big HDD’s and use TM with BOTH of them. Store 1 offsite and regularly rotate the two to keep the offsite backup fresh. A pretty solid backup approach can be as simple as that.
Yes but i tought all HDD's where very slow but somehow my WD RED 3,5" gets me about 80MB/sec speed. That is kinda OK.
The other Toshiba 2,5" small one was 20MB/sec and it really sucked.


Now I just need to find a silent 3,5" HDD or a enclousere.

This is the best and easiest solution i have right now.

The only downside is that i really dont like the noise this HDD makes, SSD is so silent.
 

AlmightyKang

macrumors 6502
Nov 20, 2023
483
1,489
I have three backups in cycle:

1. External 1TB SATA SSD (Samsung 870 EVO) in enclosure. Time Machine weekly. Kept in house.
2. External 1TB SATA SSD (Samsung 870 EVO) in enclosure. Swapped with above monthly. Kept in office locked drawer.
3. Every 6 months I tar up all my data, gzip it, encrypt it with openssl and push it to Amazon S3 with "aws s3cmd sync".
 
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HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
In general, HDDs are slowER than SSDs but PLENTY fast for TM backups. Differences are mostly about speed of drive writes. There's no mission critical pace of how fast new file creations can get onto the TM backup drive. If it takes 30 seconds or 3 minutes, that new file write is invisible to you (background task). It's just there (on the backup) if you need it at some point.

Whether you go with SSDs or HDDs, the "slow" TM backup is the very first one- the backup of everything. Depending on how much you have on your drive, that could take many hours or even a few days. Whichever it is, just leave the Mac on and let TM complete backup #1 while you work, play, sleep. Eventually the first one is done and all subsequent ones only need to backup the very new files you've updated/created/added in the last approx. hour (unless you are a content creator at The Flash speeds and/or acquiring new files like crazy, this is very quick on HDDs).

If you heed my advice about the offsite one for the added security of at least TWO complete backups, you'll have the hours or days first backup TIMES TWO. But then, you'll have two complete backups as you wish. Store the one offsite and leave the other onsite as current TM backup drive. The latter will be backing up "fast" on the hour. The former will be falling behind depending on how many days you leave it offsite. When you swap them, the older backup may need more than a few minutes to "catch up" on the backups it has not been doing while stored offsite... but then its hourly backups will be quick thereafter.

Paying up for SSDs will probably make those backup #1s finish modestly faster than HDDs. But after that, you probably won't even notice the backups in progress and thus not notice the difference in speed.

The money you could pay for SSDs large enough to do this well could probably buy you 3X-5X more storage on HDDs. And the key benefit of TM beyond reliable backups is that ability that gives it its name... the ability to go back in time to get earlier versions of files if latter ones are lost/damaged/corrupted. Abundant storage allows more time "travel" (more file copy backups) vs. getting less storage in SSDs and putting limits on how far back in time you can go.

It doesn't matter how fast the drive type is if the former file version you need has been overwritten because you ran out of space. Buy BIG storage- I suggest at least 3X the total amount of storage on all of the Macs in your household (so they can all TM backup to the drive)- so you have plenty of space to step back in time to get the version you want/need.

Along with the speed consideration comes price differences... which usually leads to choosing LESS storage to buy more speed in SSDs. However, less TM capacity means the backup will "fill up" and then start deleting oldest versions of backed up files to create space for new versions. Your ability to go back in time will be reducing as that happens. Think of this as sort of a rolling window of time (file versions) you can get back to if you need to recover an earlier version. This is the main reason to BUY BIG (storage) so that that old version recovery window can be much larger.

The other benefit of SSD is silence. HDDs will be noisier than SSDs. So if that matters enough, the SSD option might win on noise. However, there is also the manual TM option, where selecting "backup now" in the TM menu triggers a manual backup. So one option if you don't want automated backups and thus silence is to save the manual backup until end of day and then make that the last thing you start when you are ready to leave the desk and/or go to bed. It can backup and make HDD noise while you sleep or are away for the evening/night.

What I did was found a very quiet spot to store the drive so I can't hear it and let the automated process run on the hour. Generally, a long USB cable can help one find the quietest possible spot to locate the backup drive.

Lastly, perhaps the economics matters. If you dual drive it and- I'm guessing- at a storage need:
For the $1500 you might put into the two cheapest 8TB SSD sticks, you could buy 110TB of those 22TB HDDs and have up to FIVE TM backups if you wanted overkill protection. Or maybe spend $600 on the TWO 22TB for local TM backup and put the rest into a Synology NAS to give you one more local TM backup to it plus options like creating your own cloud that you fully control and that costs $0/month in subscription fees. Synology offers RAID5-like options so that it can backup itself in a single drive failure scenario, so that will be like you have two TM backups on that box too. A net of this would be- essentially- FIVE duplications of files:
  1. Master files on your Mac,
  2. TM onsite disc,
  3. TM offsite disc,
  4. Synology TM backup,
  5. Synology RAID5-like hardware backup called SHR (or you can set it up with any of the RAID options like RAID 5 or 10). I've used SHR for about 10 years now and it works great. One great benefit of using their SHR over- say- RAID 5- is that you could initially start with as little as only 2 drives in that box and then add more storage over time... and that storage could be any size (even mixed sizes). If you have some HDDs laying around, you can combine them in the Synology SHR and put them to work. Expand as needed and replace any of them whenever you like.
With each copy, the odds in losing all get substantially lower. But biggest key is #3 and regular rotation of offsite and onsite to keep the offsite copy pretty fresh.
 
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TracerAnalog

macrumors 6502a
Nov 7, 2012
796
1,462
Hello!

Today I have a macbook pro mid 2014 with Big Sur which is enough for my work until it gets way too old.

Bootable external hard disk clone for cold storage seems completely dead, APFS is extremely slow on mechanical disks and SSD is not a good option for cold storage. I feel trapped.

How do you professional mac guys do your backups? I need to completely re-evaluate my backup routines.

(Up until High Sierra I previously had two different mechanical disks in 2 different locations. Mac OS Extended encrypted.)


My wishes are:
*Easy to move entire OS with files to newer macbook when my old mid 2014 dies.
*Password protected. Encrypted.
*Everything local, not cloud. Dont trust it.

Thanks so much for the help.
Time Machine, plus full manual yearly backups to a harddrive, plus iCloud. Oh and select files to my Synology 🤓
 
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JamesMay82

macrumors 65816
Oct 12, 2009
1,473
1,205
Yes but i tought all HDD's where very slow but somehow my WD RED 3,5" gets me about 80MB/sec speed. That is kinda OK.
The other Toshiba 2,5" small one was 20MB/sec and it really sucked.


Now I just need to find a silent 3,5" HDD or a enclousere.

This is the best and easiest solution i have right now.

The only downside is that i really dont like the noise this HDD makes, SSD is so silent.
I use to have a LaCie2big in raid 0 which then backed up to another LaCie 2 big in raid 0 and then my super important files backed up again to another external.

Since then I’ve the become obsessed with the Samsung T5 and T7 SSD drives as they are silent and find that the noise on mechanical drives is now irritating.

So my set up is now a Samsung for my photos back up and Samsung for video back up and then the LaCie backs up the 2 Samsungs van Time Machine.. usually once a month or sooner if it’s something important to me.
 
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msackey

macrumors 68030
Oct 8, 2020
2,868
3,297
OP, TM is about as easy as it gets. You are getting hung up on SSD vs. HDD but that is towards irrelevant for backup purposes. The fast speed of SSD will prob offer you no noticeable benefit after the first backup (TM is a background process) and the bulk of the world’s data is stored in very reliable HDDs, including the storage for the bulk of all ‘clouds.’
Agreed. Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough.
 

swealpha

macrumors regular
Original poster
Feb 5, 2017
106
17
Thank you all for your great reply friends.

I hate that SSD is not made for long term cold storage 1-3 years. They are so silent and fast, perfect.

Instead I need to find some HDD 3,5" 1-2 TB that is fast and silent as possible. Do you guys have any recommendations?

A old WD RED 1TB WD10EFRX gave speed of 100MB/sec but its from 2012! Need to buy new ones.

Thank you.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,918
2,169
Redondo Beach, California
Thank you all for your great reply friends.

I hate that SSD is not made for long term cold storage 1-3 years. They are so silent and fast, perfect.

Instead I need to find some HDD 3,5" 1-2 TB that is fast and silent as possible. Do you guys have any recommendations?

A old WD RED 1TB WD10EFRX gave speed of 100MB/sec but its from 2012! Need to buy new ones.

Thank you.
If you really want it to be "silent" then place it in some other room in a closet and shut the closet door. All you need is any old computer, even a 2000's vintage PC notebook running Linux would work. You connect the Time Machine disk to that, then share it over your WiFi network. The best computer for this might be a 2014 mini. You can buy a low-spec version or about $160. Add a large USB disk and put it inside a hallway closet with no monitor or keyboard attached. For some added reliability buy a $70 UPS so the little backup server can ride out most power interruptions or shut itself down properly for longer power outages. A system like this might run for years with no effort and can provide a TM disk for multiple computers

If you are really concerned about failure put two external disks on the mini and TM can "ping-pong" between them.
 
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saudor

macrumors 68000
Jul 18, 2011
1,512
2,115
"HDDs are a better long-term storage device. SDDs tend to be less reliable for long-term storage because of data leaks that begin after a year of being unpowered."

With Toshiba 2,5" canvio advance (apfs encrypted) I get speed of about 20MB/sec. Sucks.

I will try a 7200 RPM disk or 3,5" 5400 RPM.

I mean SSD is no good for cold storage, and HDD is extremely slow.

I feel stuck, cant find an easy solution.
that 2.5 is a SMR drive and explains why it’s slow. APFS does a ton of small writes and that is basically the worst case scenario for these types of drives as once the CMR area of the drive (cache) gets exhausted, performance tanks as you saw. SMR is like TLC SSDs where a portion of the drive is in “fast mode” and the drive needs time to run maintenance to move the data from the fast to the slow area.

To be guaranteed not to get SMR, you need at least a 8TB WD or 10TB seagate (the big 3.5” ones with power bricks). All 2.5” is SMR and most, if not all 3.5” drives below those sizes are SMR (Although there may be a 1TB 3.5” that might still be CMR)
 
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TechnoMonk

macrumors 68030
Oct 15, 2022
2,606
4,114
One disk Time Machine, other one with carbon copy. And Ofcourse the certain directories are backed up in the cloud. It’s nice to back up and restore the computer, but for me backing up certain directory is more crucial. And I have multiple computers including Linux/Windows workstation.
 

Alameda

macrumors 65816
Jun 22, 2012
1,276
870
My setup, which I’ve been updating over time:
MBP with 512 GB Internal.
Synology NAS which is a Time Machine, Photo Storage, and remote file server. Configured as a fail safe RAID
10 TB external USB 3 backup drive to the Synology. The Synology automatically backs up to this drive daily.
Battery backup which gracefully shuts down the Synology if there’s a power failure.
New!! 4 TB Thunderbolt ultra fast portable SSD.

My situation is that I’m a photographer and I often shoot 50 or 60 GB of RAW photos, now totally around 4 TB, so I can’t keep all my photos on my Mac. That also means the photos become separated from my Time Machine backup.

This is why I recently bought the super fast SSD, so I can go through my photo archive quickly. The NAS is convenient but at 1 Gbs, it’s very slow for photo editing.

The Synology also has a feature that will auto-backup over the Internet to another encrypted Synology somewhere else. That’s my next step, so I’ll be protected if there’s a fire or theft.

Your number one concern should be theft: If thieves break in they will take ALL your stuff — your backup drive, etc. If your data is all in one place it’s very vulnerable.
 
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