Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

5comma1

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 20, 2019
105
13
Greetings!

I'm considering the creation of my first-ever RAID 0 and backup utilizing the four drive bays.
I want to be sure the new RAID I create is properly backed-up.
I use the SuperDuper app for my backups.

The RAID 0 will consist of two 6TB HDD's (12TB total) in two of the drive bays.
I want to backup this RAID to two identical 6TB HDD's in the remaining two drive bays.

I'd value your help to understand how to create the backup in SuperDuper.
The two individual backup drives can't remain separate because being 6TB each they won't have the capacity to hold all 12GB of the RAID? To harness the capacity of both 6TB backup drives I'd need to RAID them together— but creating a second RAID as my backup isn't a backup— because RAID is not a backup.

Is my question clear?
If not, please do ask clarifying questions, and thank you in advance!
 

minifridge1138

macrumors 65816
Jun 26, 2010
1,175
197
Let me try and rephrase your question to see if I understand:
“How do I use SuperDuper to backup a 12 TB drive (actually a Raid0 array of 2 6TB drives) onto two 6 TB drives?”

What you described about creating two 12 TB raid arrays and using 1 as a backup of the other is basically a Raid10 configuration.

As for “raid is not a backup”, that really depends on what your goal is for the backup. Are you trying to prevent data loss in the event a drive dies? In the event you accidentally delete a file and need a history? In the event your house burns down? Etc. for each of those scenarios, a different backup strategy is needed.
 

5comma1

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 20, 2019
105
13
Thanks for your reply, minifridge1138.

Your rephrasing of my question is spot-on.

And yes, I do want a backup that would prevent data loss in each of the scenarios you wrote about.

What is the different backup strategy you have in mind, minifridge1138?
 

minifridge1138

macrumors 65816
Jun 26, 2010
1,175
197
The simple answer: you can’t prevent data loss in each of those scenarios with the setup you described.

To prevent losing data due to a hard drive failure, you want a clone (a Raid array that isn’t Raid0 would work - Raid0 actually increases your odds of hard drive failure).
To prevent losing data due to environment (e.g. fire, flood, etc) you want an off-site backup separated by enough distance that an earthquake or hurricane can’t reach both sites).
To prevent losing data when a file is accidentally deleted, you don’t want a single backup you want multiple snapshots over time (e.g. here’s a backup of 1 hour ago, here’s a backup of 1 day ago, here’s a backup of last week, etc). A single 1:1 clone doesn’t do you much good because when you delete a file from your main drive the next time you clone the drive the clone would not include that file.

There isn’t one simple, cheap strategy that protects you from all of those (the closest would be a cloud solution that you pay for).

The off-site backup with enough distance is what makes it hard to make a DIY solution.
 

5comma1

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 20, 2019
105
13
Got'cha. That all makes sense, and thank you. ?

To my original question...

Even if it's ill advised and even if I never end up doing it... how can one backup a 12TB RAID 0 onto two 6 TB drives? Do you happen to know, minifridge1138?
 

minifridge1138

macrumors 65816
Jun 26, 2010
1,175
197
Ok, what you could do:
Create a Raid0 array with two of the 6TB drives. Name it whatever you want.
Create a Raid0 array with the other two 6TB drives. Name it Backup.
Use the first “drive” as your main disk.
Configure SuperDuper (Or TimeMacine) to clone your main drive to “Backup”.

I’ve heard that Mojave won’t boot off of a Raid array, so if your running Mojave you may need a separate boot drive for the OS.
 

Snow Tiger

macrumors 6502a
Dec 18, 2019
854
634
Build a RAID 10 of four 6TB HDDs .

You'll get 12 TB of capacity with faster write speeds than a RAID 5 .

Fault tolerance is one or two drive failure .
 
  • Like
Reactions: crjackson2134

5comma1

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 20, 2019
105
13
Understood, minifridge1138.

I have the skills to create that second RAID 0 as my backup, but I've read numerous times over the years that a RAID is not a backup. And of course, RAID 0 is the most risky type RAID of them all.

So, I'm still unclear how one can backup a 12TB RAID 0 onto two 6 TB drives using Super Duper?
Maybe it's not possible?

I'm seeking that RAID 0 I/O speed bump for video editing.


Thanks again!
[automerge]1582216405[/automerge]
Build a RAID 10 of four 6TB HDDs .

You'll get 12 TB of capacity with faster write speeds than a RAID 5 .

Fault tolerance is one or two drive failure .
Thanks much for the suggestion, Snow Tiger.
I'm going to school myself on RAID 10.

However, even if I were to go with a RAID 10, the question of a proper backup remains unresolved.
How does one backup a RAID configuration without creating another RAID to backup to... since RAID's are not backups?

Do you happen to know?
 
Last edited:

jeyf

macrumors 68020
Jan 20, 2009
2,173
1,044
Raid 0 can traid off relaibility for speed. An alternative to raid 0 is JBOD. If all your going to use the drive setup is for backup who cares if one day it ALL goes away? I like having a home network based storage NAS box and Synology, Qnap, Drobo are some manufacturers. I run raid 05 by the way but these manufacturers all modifyed the original spec some to sute their needs. I saw a 3 bay nas box that ran a version of raid 05. raid 10 is faster safer than raid 05.

I have (2) nas boxes. The newer Qnap 4bay box backups up to an older Drobo 5 bay box every Tuesday starting at 3am. After much evaluation i use chronoSync to do the backup. I dont trust container files that you have to use an application to extract files. Much better all the tiles are directly readable for me. I evaluated backup compresson but for most modern file formats well, they cant be compressed any more. Fro example a pdf file is faily dense jsut the way it is. I dnt need encryption either. So not using any container files, no compression, no encryption somehting like a file sync was the fastest. ChronoSync also was able to mount my two NAS boxes always with success. Apple wants you to use the cloud for backup so their verison of SMB:// is not always reliable but chronoSync seems to work sell.

I do not back up any of my computers as i dont put project data on them. If they fail i plan to totally rebuild them them.

I felt the new Qnap box was more difficult than planned to setup the software. It had a lot of off shore documentation. English as a 2nd langage,all good but hard to read. I do feel that the Qnap firmware is calling home more often than necessary.
 

5comma1

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 20, 2019
105
13
Thanks very much, jefy! ?
A lot of useful info shared here.

I'm going to school myself on the benefits of ChronoSync.
 

Snow Tiger

macrumors 6502a
Dec 18, 2019
854
634
Understood, minifridge1138.

I have the skills to create that second RAID 0 as my backup, but I've read numerous times over the years that a RAID is not a backup. And of course, RAID 0 is the most risky type RAID of them all.

So, I'm still unclear how one can backup a 12TB RAID 0 onto two 6 TB drives using Super Duper?
Maybe it's not possible?

I'm seeking that RAID 0 I/O speed bump for video editing.


Thanks again!
[automerge]1582216405[/automerge]

Thanks much for the suggestion, Snow Tiger.
I'm going to school myself on RAID 10.

However, even if I were to go with a RAID 10, the question of a proper backup remains unresolved.
How does one backup a RAID configuration without creating another RAID to backup to... since RAID's are not backups?

Do you happen to know?

Correct . RAID is not a backup . It is possible for a RAID array to become overwhelmed with failing drives and suffer data loss . Try using CCC :


Also , with HDDs be careful to guard against data rot . Periodically spin up all offline archive hard disk drives to help mitigate data rot concerns . This should not be a concern with solid state drives .


Wiki recommends for mechanical drives to periodically refresh the drives by rewriting the data .

In my shop , all my archive drives undergo complete drive refreshes at least once every five years . I also use enterprise grade drives with real world durability of 5 to 10 years . Most of them undergo this every three months or so . I do not believe I have lost any data in 15 years .

Here's a graphical example of gradual data rot as data bits are lost . Look what happens when you lose just a little data of between 0 and 3 bits out of a total of 326,272 bits :
Screen Shot 2020-02-20 at 11.30.35 AM.png
 
Last edited:

kohlson

macrumors 68020
Apr 23, 2010
2,425
737
I'm seeking that RAID 0 I/O speed bump for video editing.
Something to consider - can you use a PCIe-based SSD as your main volume for editing? Much faster/easier to deal with than RAID.

I keep my actual working project on SSD, and move them on/off a 7200 RPM HDD as needed.
 

5comma1

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 20, 2019
105
13
Correct . RAID is not a backup . It is possible for a RAID array to become overwhelmed with failing drives and suffer data loss . Try using CCC :


Also , with HDDs be careful to guard against data rot . Periodically spin up all offline archive hard disk drives to help mitigate data rot concerns . This should not be a concern with solid state drives .

Thanks, Snow Tiger.

Can you please say more about why and how you suggest I use Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC) in the context of my original question? How would CCC benefit me since I'm already running SuperDuper, which by most accounts I've read is a comparable software backup tool?

Thanks for the tip on data rot, too— I've never before heard the term.
 

Snow Tiger

macrumors 6502a
Dec 18, 2019
854
634
Thanks, Snow Tiger.

Can you please say more about why and how you suggest I use Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC) in the context of my original question? How would CCC benefit me since I'm already running SuperDuper, which by most accounts I've read is a comparable software backup tool?

Thanks for the tip on data rot, too— I've never before heard the term.

I don't know about SuperDuper since I don't use it ... sorry . CCC is what I recommend to clients and CCC is Mac only , so it's specialized for Mac users .
 

5comma1

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 20, 2019
105
13
Something to consider - can you use a PCIe-based SSD as your main volume for editing? Much faster/easier to deal with than RAID.

I keep my actual working project on SSD, and move them on/off a 7200 RPM HDD as needed.
Thanks for the question, kohlson.

I've been considering the PCIe-based option, too.

Are you using NVMe blades with a PCIe adaptor?
If so, what did you end up purchasing for blades and an adaptor?

Thank you.
[automerge]1582220990[/automerge]
I don't know about SuperDuper since I don't use it ... sorry . CCC is what I recommend to clients and CCC is Mac only , so it's specialized for Mac users .
Got'cha. Thanks much, Snow Tiger. Understood. ?
 

kohlson

macrumors 68020
Apr 23, 2010
2,425
737
Are you using NVMe blades with a PCIe adaptor?
If so, what did you end up purchasing for blades and an adaptor?
I followed the recommendations on the Mac Pro stick post. I bought an HP EX920 1TB and a simple RiiTop PCIe adapter (which came with an all-important heat sink. I get 1430 MBps (-ish) R&W. (I since installed this same setup in 2 other cMPs.) Makes a noticeable difference when working with 4K in FCPX. I boot from this SSD as well.

My general rule is to keep project files on at least 2 HDDs. I have a 4TB 7200 RPM Seagate with 256MB cache, and this RWs at about 250 MBps. I also have an external 8TB USB 3 Seagate (Costco! $120), which RWs about 90 or so. When I edit something I always work on the NVMe. When done for the day, I copy off the project folder to both the 4TB and 8TB drives. Both drives can write at their maximum speed, and copying a hundred GBs or so doesn't take that long.

I should point out that I don't do this for work. When I ran a business I was much more methodical about backups. But with 2 - 3 copies (a third disk is backed up less frequently and rotated to another building) it's a plan I can live with. Really important files are archived on a RAID 0 NAS using ext3 format drives, also in another building.

In my personal experience with this cMP, I tried setting up a RAID 1. It worked - but not reliably. But I have since learned that consumer drives are not really designed to do this without a hardware or software RAID controller. YMMV.
 

5comma1

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 20, 2019
105
13
Thank you, kohlson, for the insights into your cMP I/O setup.

Very much appreciated! ?
 

amedias

macrumors 6502
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
Backups are a tricky thing as everyone has different levels of tolerance to risk as well.

For starters, no RAID is not a backup. RAID should be used to increase performance and/or resilience and/or to maintain availability but should never be considered a backup.

Secondly there is also a difference between having a backup and disaster recovery!

Also always remember a backup is only any good if you can restore it, and KNOW that you can, we’ve all heard the story of the guy diligently backed up his data, then when he came to needing it found it was all corrupt and unusable.

So I’ll now spew forth some thoughts, these are based on MY approach to data risk, you maybe more or less paranoid than me!

I would never rely on a backup held in the same physical machine, I do often have backups/data duplicate in the same machine and make use of them but it would never be my only backup, you’re one power surge or blown PSU away from losing it all. Also since they’re in the same machine any silent data corruption due to bad hardware could nuke your backup as well as your primary.

I also would never rely on only having a single backup. If something bad happens to your primary you are now completely reliant on your backup, both being good and accessible, and also NOT failing during any restoration attempt, although unlikely it is a risk.

My setup is as follows:

all my machines have primary storage, sometimes this is RAID, sometimes not depending on my requirements in that machine.

Some of my machines also have secondary storage which contains data duplicates of important working data, this is regularly kept updated with rSync and is used purely to keep me running in a case of primary storage failure or a case of the whoopsies I’m deleting or breaking something.

I also have a primary NAS located on site which uses ZFS with a bunch of mirrored vdevs underneath. I use ZFS as it’s highly resilient, scalable and is self healing as it can identify data corruption AND fix it. It also has excellent replication and snapshot capabilities. I’ve been using it since it first appeared and it’s a VERY good filesystem but takes a little time to get the best out of it if you’ve not come across something like it before.

All my machines backup to this NAS and it also holds shared data used by multiple machines and is storage for my VM lab.

I also have a secondary ZFS NAS similar to the first on site, data is replicated from the primary using ZFS replication so this NAS is always ready to step in for the primary if that has issues. I do periodically failover to it just to test.

I also have a smaller capacity ZFS NAS that is kept offsite at a friends house, critical data (ie: personal files and important work, but not transient data) from the primary NAS is replicated here daily so this is my first port of call should anything drastic happen to my place! He has a reciprocal arrangement with me and I host his backup NAS.

As another layer of protection I also have an account with rSync.net and I replicate critical data to them nightly, so this is my next port of call if needed.

* in my primary NAS I use two disk controllers and each mirror pair has one drive on each controller, and I use different manufacturers drives for each half of the mirror. This helps mitigate against both bad drive models and controller issues.

For secondary and offsite NAS i forgo the extra controller but still mix disk brands.

The offsite NAS is smaller capacity as it only stores critical data but it’s setup as a quad mirror as I rarely see it physically so this gives added redundancy and also more leeway in case I do have a disk failure I don’t have to be quite as quick to sort it.

some may call my setup overkill but I’ve not yet lost any important data in the last 20 years and my current setup is more reliable and resilient than it was 10-15 years ago.
 
  • Like
Reactions: crjackson2134

5comma1

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 20, 2019
105
13
Holy Cow, amedias!
That's one heck of a setup you have there.
You're serious about proper backups.

What is ZFS?
 

amedias

macrumors 6502
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
It is a bit... to be honest you could ditch my secondary on site and one of the offsite and still be very safe. The reason I have two NAS on site is more for availability as it provides shared storage too.

ZFS is a file system, but there’s a bit more to it than that as it also does RAID and snashotting and replication.

it’s a copy-on-write filesystem too so on the fly corruption is almost impossible. It’s also a checksumming filesystem so can detect when errors have occurred due to hardware problems or bit rot, but crucially it can correct those errors too so it is an exceedingly safe and reliable filesystem.
 

5comma1

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 20, 2019
105
13
Thanks for the ZFS explanation, amedias.
Sounds like a very robust system.

I found this article on ZFS, too— which was helpful:
 

amedias

macrumors 6502
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
That article covers the basics of its features. It is very robust and I’m a fan but it’s not appropriate for everyone or every situation.


if you just want a decent local backup then at the bare minimum I’d suggest having the backups in a different physical machine. I’d also suggest holding your backups on mirrored drives, either done with RAID or even independent drives and use rSync but I’d always suggest there are at least two actual physical copies of your data in addition to the primary working drives.

that may mean you need to rethink your plans if you actually need 12TB capacity for your primary working set.
 
Last edited:

crjackson2134

macrumors 601
Mar 6, 2013
4,847
1,957
Charlotte, NC
Holy Cow, amedias!
That's one heck of a setup you have there.
You're serious about proper backups.

What is ZFS?

Not really excessive. Just good practice and forethought. How much you value your data will dictate how well you protect it.

I have 5 backups of all my data and they are each on a different type of storage media, both onsite and offsite. You really can't OVER back up your data IMHO.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: amedias

troybogert

macrumors newbie
Aug 30, 2017
3
0
Thanks very much, jefy! ?
A lot of useful info shared here.

I'm going to school myself on the benefits of ChronoSync.
If you are using the raid you can always use the camera master drives as the backup. I never use a media backup simply because the cost is so high to match the number of TB needed to keep a backup and the time required to copy the files each day. In the old tape-to-tape days in the 90's we would use the original tapes as a backup and assistant editors would re-digitize any lost or corrupted media that happened at least once a week. These days everything is shot to some SD card or similar, transferred to a portable disk drive, and then cloned and handed to two separate people, usually the editor and producer. That way there are two copies of the precious footage. Now say you copy all the media with the file system from the field drives intact to your raid 0 then the raid craps out on week 6 of the edit (by the way since 2015 I have never seen that happen..drive reliability is much better than the 90's) All you need to do at that point is to get a new raid setup and copy over all the camera files with the same file structure as before and all your media is back online. You would need to re-render all your fx but that is easy. Last thought, do you really need a raid? I have not used one since the faster drives these days usually have enough bandwidth to handle 4k footage and if they can't you can just use proxies. Make sure to check the benchmarks before you purchase. Not all drives have the same MB/s throughput. If you are doing ONLINE then you would want the raid.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.