I want an Apple TELEVISION with AppleTV built in.

[Amazing Iceman]

It's obvious that we can only speculate what the future holds, but how likely do you think a product of this nature would be. Do you think Apple will venture here? I really hope so, I think they could make an excellent 55 inch Television for under/about $2500.

Thoughts?

So the day when Apple upgrades or discontinues it, you'll need to buy a whole new TV again???

Also, the selection would be very limited to just a few specifications.

It makes no sense. It's better to have two separate pieces to be able to choose and upgrade as each suits your needs.

 

[gugy]

Man please dont make a comment without checking your sources. I will paypal you $100 dollars if you know someone at bestbuy/futureshop that can contradict and prove that TVs dont have a high margin. Specifically Higher end name brand tvs such as sony, samsung, LG and more.

Thanks
AE

Sorry but who needs to check the sources. You based your assumption on a electronic store employee talk.
"Walk into a best buy or whatever you guys have and ask an employee what their highest margin product is."

Just one example:
Pioneer was the best quality plasma manufacturer out there. They finish their production because of the fierce competition that was lowering prices across the board. Their profit margins were not enough to offset the cost of their production.
http://hd.engadget.com/2009/02/12/pioneer-officially-leaving-the-tv-biz-by-march-2010-focusing-on/

This was one of the best manufactures of HDTVs out there. By the way I have one of their Elite sets and I can attest how amazing they are.

Here another article on the subject
http://www.proavmagazine.com/earnings-reports/parallax-view-flat-panel-blues.aspx

Finally keep in mind I am talking profit margins for manufacturers and not retail stores. For that reason I hardly see Apple jumping into the TV set business.

I am waiting for the $100

 

[aelalfy]

Sorry but who needs to check the sources. You based your assumption on a electronic store employee talk.
"Walk into a best buy or whatever you guys have and ask an employee what their highest margin product is."

Just one example:
Pioneer was the best quality plasma manufacturer out there. They finish their production because of the fierce competition that was lowering prices across the board. Their profit margins were not enough to offset the cost of their production.
http://hd.engadget.com/2009/02/12/pioneer-officially-leaving-the-tv-biz-by-march-2010-focusing-on/

This was one of the best manufactures of HDTVs out there. By the way I have one of their Elite sets and I can attest how amazing they are.

Here another article on the subject
http://www.proavmagazine.com/earnings-reports/parallax-view-flat-panel-blues.aspx

Finally keep in mind I am talking profit margins for manufacturers and not retail stores. For that reason I hardly see Apple jumping into the TV set business.

I am waiting for the $100

Lol I'm tired of arguing with people, you dont listen, I know managers not simple employee. Wake into a store, chat with a manager for a while, and ask him what is your highest margin of profit product, see his reply.

I'm telling your from experience, all these retail store, bestbuy and them, all rely on TV sales heavily to earn revenue. They are willing to take losses on other words as long as you buy a TV.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had a connection at Futureshop aka bestbuy and he gave me a free 5.1 energy speakers, a yamaha receiver worth $200 and a PS3, if i bought the 52" samsung TV of HIM at the moment.

Please just try to walk in and ask around and if I'm wrong I'm willing to paypal anyone who can prove me wrong $100 dollars. I know from experience and connections how profitable that market is for retailers.

Thanks
AE

 

[mbrannon47]

Please go ask before commenting, I know people that work there, mangers not simple employee. They have no margin whatsoever on consoles and games and such. But a huge margin on TVs.

You are correct on one thing, that cables and such have a massive margin as well. I wanted to buy a HDMI cable priced at $50 at Futureshop, whenni went to my guy and he used his employee ID, it was priced at 6.99

Thanks
AE

No. I've managed at Best Buy for years and the markup on TVs is nowhere near this. 30-50% at most, usually around 10-20%.

 

[mbrannon47]

Lol I'm tired of arguing with people, you dont listen, I know managers not simple employee. Wake into a store, chat with a manager for a while, and ask him what is your highest margin of profit product, see his reply.

I'm telling your from experience, all these retail store, bestbuy and them, all rely on TV sales heavily to earn revenue. They are willing to take losses on other words as long as you buy a TV.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had a connection at Futureshop aka bestbuy and he gave me a free 5.1 energy speakers, a yamaha receiver worth $200 and a PS3, if i bought the 52" samsung TV of HIM at the moment.

Please just try to walk in and ask around and if I'm wrong I'm willing to paypal anyone who can prove me wrong $100 dollars. I know from experience and connections how profitable that market is for retailers.

Thanks
AE

No. TVs carry a margin, but the true profits come from gross margins on HDMI cables, screen cleaning accessories, calibrations, installs, etc.

 

[peterdevries]

It's obvious that we can only speculate what the future holds, but how likely do you think a product of this nature would be. Do you think Apple will venture here? I really hope so, I think they could make an excellent 55 inch Television for under/about $2500.

Thoughts?

TV's have a life of at least 5 years and usually 10 years. Your built in apple TV will be obsolete within 2 years. What do you do?

 

[peterdevries]

Lol I'm tired of arguing with people, you dont listen, I know managers not simple employee. Wake into a store, chat with a manager for a while, and ask him what is your highest margin of profit product, see his reply.

Although you are right, stating people you know doesn't mean anything. This is the Internet. I'm an astronaut and know the queen of England personally..

Actually the margins differ across the range of TV's that are available. The high end TV's have a much lower margin than the low end smaller TV's. This is both due to the volume that is sold, and due to the mature tech in lower spec TV's. The margins also differ in markets. E.g. In the US large size high end TV's are more or less the norm, whereas in Europe 32" is the mainstream TV, which has quite a large margin.

 

[aelalfy]

Although you are right, stating people you know doesn't mean anything. This is the Internet. I'm an astronaut and know the queen of England personally..

Actually the margins differ across the range of TV's that are available. The high end TV's have a much lower margin than the low end smaller TV's. This is both due to the volume that is sold, and due to the mature tech in lower spec TV's. The margins also differ in markets. E.g. In the US large size high end TV's are more or less the norm, whereas in Europe 32" is the mainstream TV, which has quite a large margin.

1) I told whoever wants to make a comment to go check and familiarize themselves with a manager at a local bestbuy and see what they say. I also gave an example of what a connection at futureshop aka bestbuy here in canada who is a manager and gave me alot of free stuff worth close to $1000 dollars (Retailing price not cost of them buying it) for a $3900 TV.

2) Also I might be not 100% correct on this point but, I'm guessing margin is not depend on the "range of TV's" as you put it but rather on manufacturer. Some manufacturers want 100% profit some want more and other want less (depending on who they are aiming for).

3) This point is regarding a very big mistake you made that I highlighted in your quote... First of all The lower end models have a smaller margin of profit than higher end models which contradicting what you said. Let me explain why, there is alot of competition in this section of the market (low end TV's) because of the demand, manufacturers (and only because there are options for customer) have to fight to compete with one another. Ie for a car manufacturer that would be honda, toyota nissan, etc. High demand yet their margin of profit is low.

Now this does not have to be the case, it depends on the economics of the TV market. But my quess is that higher end TV's are easier to play around with. Integrate HD and a ultra thin design and manufacturers can make buyers believe its worth thousands. Ie in car terms, BMW AUDI MERCEDES.

4) Also regarding the highlighted (bolded) quote of yours, Don't forget we are talking about Margin of profit and not Revenue. Profit= revenue - cost, revenue = Price x quantity. Volume only applies when you talk about revenue. Ie. I can make more profit selling ONE BMW than selling 3 Toyota's.

Also calling it margin of profit is incorrect as most people tend to call these things. Margin of profit would actually represent what the profit would be if one was to increase the quantity produced by one unit, rather than actual profit. Which makes a big difference, so technically here we are talking about profit not margin of profit or revenue. Just to be one the same page.

5) You are correct on the fact that it depends on location, I was under the assumption that when I spoke of bestbuy/futureshop I was referring to NORTH AMERICA. But maybe a bestbuy will open in india and my assumption will be wasted. UNTIL THEN, ITS VALID!!

6) I'm an astronaut and know the queen of England personally..But I'm a real Aerospace Engineer in Canada and have an idea of what I'm talking about. I don't usually comment on things unless I'm sure or can prove otherwise.

Thank you,
AE

 

[NathanA]

No way. If Apple made a TV set it would be overpriced AND you'd risk playing the "yellow screen" lottery.



I kid, I kid...

(...well, kind of)

-- Nathan

 

[125037]

So the day when Apple upgrades or discontinues it, you'll need to buy a whole new TV again???

Also, the selection would be very limited to just a few specifications.

It makes no sense. It's better to have two separate pieces to be able to choose and upgrade as each suits your needs.

....and why would you have to buy a new one in 5 years just because they update it? I just bought an LED and I can tell you that I will probably upgrade in 5 years again anyway. That is a little much for some people but my opening question in this reply still stands.

TV's have a life of at least 5 years and usually 10 years. Your built in apple TV will be obsolete within 2 years. What do you do?

Um, Still watch it... Are you people under the impression that the TV will just cut off when Apple releases a new one? How about that Samsung or LG TV that you have... what about all of the models that replace it YEARLY or even sooner? What do you do? You keep watching the TV you have, it still works. Where is the logic here?

 

[JRoDDz]

I want Steve Jobs to come and work the remote while I watch apple TV. I really don't want to press any buttons. I just want to sit there, and say "Steve press pause" while I go get a snack.

 

[mstrze]

Um, Still watch it... Are you people under the impression that the TV will just cut off when Apple releases a new one? How about that Samsung or LG TV that you have... what about all of the models that replace it YEARLY or even sooner? What do you do? You keep watching the TV you have, it still works. Where is the logic here?

TV/display technology and a system for playing back video files are two seperate technologies. Sure, you will be able to watch you TV for years and years until, maybe 30 years from now, when they change the broadcast formats. Even then, you might still be able to watch with a firmware update to you set (yes, they do update these...check your HDTV-maker's website and make sure yours is up to date.)

BUT with a video playback system, there are many things that evolve in a few years time:

- We may be seeing much higher resolutions of 3D video and the like which will tax the processor that you are essentially 'stuck with' in your all-in-one TV.
-Wifi/network speeds will improve, leaving you in the dust, locked it at whatever the speed was when you bought your TV.
-File sizes will grow larger and larger with the original memory installed in your TV not able to contain even one movie a few years from now.

and so on....

All the while, your base TV will still 'work'...BUT the extra functionality will be left in the dust.

10 years from now, the built-in AppleTV in your all-in-one will sit idle even if you are still using the set every day to watch OTA or cable/sat broadcasts.

 

[Otto J]

Okay, so this might be my first post on this forum, so I may not have the credibility of some, but I just hate to see people going on and on when they're dead wrong:

1) I told whoever wants to make a comment to go check and familiarize themselves with a manager at a local bestbuy and see what they say. I also gave an example of what a connection at futureshop aka bestbuy here in canada who is a manager and gave me alot of free stuff worth close to $1000 dollars (Retailing price not cost of them buying it) for a $3900 TV.

I don't have to go check and familiarize myself with anyone. I _am_ a manager at, well, not best buy but an audio/video store nonetheless.

Did it ever occur to you that the reason you could be given a lot of "free" stuff, is because the markup on the stuff you were _given_ is much, much higher than on TV's? The reason he could give you all that stuff, isn't due to high markup on the tv, but because dealer cost on all that stuff is so low. The store might be better off giving you 1000$ worth of gear, than by giving you a 500$ discount.

Markups on cables, speakers, well - basically any audio stuff in the store, will be higher than on the tv. Yes, the markup on a TV is higher than it usually is on computers etc, at least at list price (but who pays list of anything _other_ than MAC stuff anyway??). However, there's a point here that you are completely missing: It's not about what markup the store has. It's about what markup the manufacturer has. The thing that has made Apple a roaring succes business-wise, is the fact that they like none other has succeeded in having a fairly high margin themselves, while allowing very low margin to the stores. The TV market is completely different. So, yes, store margins on tv's are higher than on Mac's (but nowhere near the highest in the store), but Apple's margin as a manufacturer would be much lower than what they're used to, if they went into the TV market, at least if they want to be competitive.

Of course, this is just my judgement, but you wanted a store manager to chime in, so there you go.

 

[Otto J]

Anyway: I agree with whoever said that built-in Apple TV is a bad idea, since you would need upgrading the whole set when technology advances. But, keeping this in mind, if you were to design a third-party "TV" (monitor, rather) designed specifically for use with Apple products, what would you like to see? Just a monitor? Built-in speakers? Built-in mic/camera?

 

[egan311]

If Steve Jobs decided to sell an Apple television....it would only be 720p.

 

[OptyCT]

Aelalfy, your argument about profit margin being a reason as to why Apple should enter the television market is flawed. You know what has larger profit margins than televisions? Pizza! Should Apple start buying up pizza chains? Of course not. The problems with televisions, like pizza, is that competition reduces profit margins. For every television that your friends at Best Buy have sitting on a shelf, there are 50+ online and brick-and-mortar retailers who are prepared to undersell them. So, while Best Buy may stick to their guns and sell their televisions at a high profit margin, they're still not doing as well in that business as they should. They need to make 100% on each TV because they're losing countless sales to other retailers selling them at a 50% markup.

That being said, Apple has never played in these competitive arenas. This is the primary reason as to why they've never released a laptop/netbook in the $500 range. It's simply too competitive an environment to make money. Apple doesn't deal in commodity items, which is why you'll never see an Apple television.

 

[potatis]

It's small and cheap, maybe it could be bundled with TV's?

 

[omnibusfilms]

as long as LG isn't involved

The LED displays made by LG are not very good. The yellow problem with the Imacs is ridiculous. If they went with another manufacturer i would totally be in. Or hell integrate ios 4, and a mac mini built in. We can call it WebTV, oh wait.

 

[aelalfy]

Okay, so this might be my first post on this forum, so I may not have the credibility of some, but I just hate to see people going on and on when they're dead wrong:



I don't have to go check and familiarize myself with anyone. I _am_ a manager at, well, not best buy but an audio/video store nonetheless.

Did it ever occur to you that the reason you could be given a lot of "free" stuff, is because the markup on the stuff you were _given_ is much, much higher than on TV's? The reason he could give you all that stuff, isn't due to high markup on the tv, but because dealer cost on all that stuff is so low. The store might be better off giving you 1000$ worth of gear, than by giving you a 500$ discount.

Markups on cables, speakers, well - basically any audio stuff in the store, will be higher than on the tv. Yes, the markup on a TV is higher than it usually is on computers etc, at least at list price (but who pays list of anything _other_ than MAC stuff anyway??). However, there's a point here that you are completely missing: It's not about what markup the store has. It's about what markup the manufacturer has. The thing that has made Apple a roaring succes business-wise, is the fact that they like none other has succeeded in having a fairly high margin themselves, while allowing very low margin to the stores. The TV market is completely different. So, yes, store margins on tv's are higher than on Mac's (but nowhere near the highest in the store), but Apple's margin as a manufacturer would be much lower than what they're used to, if they went into the TV market, at least if they want to be competitive.

Of course, this is just my judgement, but you wanted a store manager to chime in, so there you go.

1) How is your store doing? Is it running well?

2) If you read my post I didn't say I got free cables or accessories, I said I got 5.1 ENERGY speakers, a yamaha receiver and a PS3. You can argue that the first two items carry a somewhat huge markup and therefore the cost to the store is not the retail price. But For the PS3, bestbuy barely makes any money on those as their cost to purchase is VERY close to the MSRP set my manufacturers. That also goes for games. They rely on you buying other things along side your Console to make money, such as warranty and accessories.

My point being that if he gave me a PS3 he was taking a close to MSRP hit on that device, no huge margin of profit here.

3) Profit on TV is the highest of its kind in any of these stores. I want to see a BESTBUY employee tell me otherwise, Also Future shop employee work on commission, he knew that all these other devices have a small/not worth it profit compared to the comission he will be getting of the profit from the TV. Bestbuy doesn't work on commission but regardless their prices are the same so the profit should be similar to that of futureshop.

4) I have bolded a point of yours that I already addressed and didn't miss. This point was addressed when someone tried to tell me that higher end models have a lower profit than lower end ones. I didn't agree, and stated that manufacturers of low end models have to consider competition greatly and the demand of consumers and so on. Therefore I believed that higher end models have a greater profit bracket than lower end ones.

5) Like you said apple would need to be competitive unless they are aiming at higher end models which range widely but all have a high profit bracket. I see apple releasing a TV for $5000 dollars no problem and selling them well. They would be sold in their stores, and many mac fans would buy them

BUT unlike other TV manufacturers Apple will not allow its 100% profit markup to go down and therefore will give the same deal to its distributers (ie bestbuy futureshop) as it does with its macs, ie around 13-15% depending on total yearly sales. This would allow other manufactures to lower prices and give apple a run for its money.

Regardless of that, the TV business is very competitive and NOT new. Many manufacturers are already ahead in technology and experience when compared to Apple in that market. If apple was to think of entering that market, they would need something Revolutionary to retain a high markup or to be even competetive. Releasing a 55" HDTV with the AppleTV will not do it alone. Maybe with app store and revolutionary remote ie ipad, they might create something different.

My point being that Apple likes to be in markets it knows its ahead of the competition. ie mobile, tablet market. This is why they focused their shift on the iphone/iPad and left the macs alone for a while. They know that even though they release a piece of solid, high quality computer that it still doesn't change what PC manufacturers are doing. This is where their new shift to bring "BACK TO THE MAC" stuff from iOS.

I also love the thinking that touchscreen desktops are DOA and were not the to go. This explains their push on the magic mouse and magic trackpad, which are brilliant for imitating the touchscreen like idea.

Thanks
AE

 

[santaliqueur]

3) Profit on TV is the highest of its kind in any of these stores. I want to see a BESTBUY employee tell me otherwise

You already did, but you continue to run your mouth.

No. I've managed at Best Buy for years and the markup on TVs is nowhere near this. 30-50% at most, usually around 10-20%.

I worked at Best Buy for a couple years, and concur with mbrannon47.

Best Buy's employee discount is 5% above cost (an excellent discount). The discount was good on TVs, nearly nothing on consoles and games, nearly nothing on computers, and excellent on car stereo equipment. But the markup on cables and service plans is astronomical.

You are right that the markup is considerable, but it's not even close to 100%, and not even the most highly discounted area of a Best Buy...The car audio section has a higher markup across the board.

 

[netdog]

I keep a TV for 10-15 years.

I keep an AppleTV for 3 or 4.

Nope. Don't put my AppleTV in my TV.

 

[aelalfy]

You already did, but you continue to run your mouth.



I worked at Best Buy for a couple years, and concur with mbrannon47.

Best Buy's employee discount is 5% above cost (an excellent discount). The discount was good on TVs, nearly nothing on consoles and games, nearly nothing on computers, and excellent on car stereo equipment. But the markup on cables and service plans is astronomical.

You are right that the markup is considerable, but it's not even close to 100%, and not even the most highly discounted area of a Best Buy...The car audio section has a higher markup across the board.

1) I didn't continue to run my mouth, when I said that I want to see a bestbuy manager, he was not a bestbuy manager, read the whole post

2) I clearly stated that I was not sure what the actual profit is, but I said that its one of the highest, compared to computers, consoles, and most electronics in general. I gave the assumption that its 100%, you say its 30% and being one of the highest, far enough.

Either way you prove me point, so don't go saying that I run my mouth, when I was just proving those other posters wrong, because they believed TV didn't have a higher margin than other things. When you look at the profit x the quantity on tv, so aka revenue from TV sales. This is how Stores like bestbuy make money, compared to almost anything else.

Yes accessories are high margin too but TV are the number 1 thing, those stores want to sell.

I find you tone a little rude about running my mouth, I'm just replying back to those who doubted me and I didn't run my mouth because the only manager that came was a audio/video manager, which to me means nothing because they might not be a big retailer and get the same distribution discounts.

So please don't talk with that kind of tone, just because I have a point that I discussed in some detail.

Thanks
AE

 

[topmounter]

There are a variety of reason why a Apple-branded television is a bad idea, but the most obvious one is that the current Apple Stores aren't designed to warehouse a reasonable inventory of 46", 55", etc. television boxes... much less load them into your vehicle or deliver them to your home.



edit> And I'd expect sales of televisions by big-box retailers to provide good "margin dollars", but not good "percentage margins"... at least when the television model is still the latest / greatest. But once the model has been out for a few months and they start the deep discounting, then yeah, selling cables, extended warranties, etc. is the name of the game.

 

[gugy]

Lol I'm tired of arguing with people, you dont listen, I know managers not simple employee. Wake into a store, chat with a manager for a while, and ask him what is your highest margin of profit product, see his reply.

I'm telling your from experience, all these retail store, bestbuy and them, all rely on TV sales heavily to earn revenue. They are willing to take losses on other words as long as you buy a TV.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had a connection at Futureshop aka bestbuy and he gave me a free 5.1 energy speakers, a yamaha receiver worth $200 and a PS3, if i bought the 52" samsung TV of HIM at the moment.

Please just try to walk in and ask around and if I'm wrong I'm willing to paypal anyone who can prove me wrong $100 dollars. I know from experience and connections how profitable that market is for retailers.

Thanks
AE

With all due respect the talk about the retail margins doesn't really mean anything in order for Apple to make a TV. Like I showed you with my links the profit margins for manufacture companies are very low due the competition and HDTV prices falling year after year.

Apple historically charge a premium for their products. So I have hard time thinking they will jump into this market because of it. Like I showed you Pioneer made the best sets out there, charged a premium and could not stay in business.
That said what Best Buy/Frys/Future Shop/etc. chargers for it and how much money they make is meaningless for this discussion.

 

[gugy]

Aelalfy, your argument about profit margin being a reason as to why Apple should enter the television market is flawed. You know what has larger profit margins than televisions? Pizza! Should Apple start buying up pizza chains? Of course not. The problems with televisions, like pizza, is that competition reduces profit margins. For every television that your friends at Best Buy have sitting on a shelf, there are 50+ online and brick-and-mortar retailers who are prepared to undersell them. So, while Best Buy may stick to their guns and sell their televisions at a high profit margin, they're still not doing as well in that business as they should. They need to make 100% on each TV because they're losing countless sales to other retailers selling them at a 50% markup.

That being said, Apple has never played in these competitive arenas. This is the primary reason as to why they've never released a laptop/netbook in the $500 range. It's simply too competitive an environment to make money. Apple doesn't deal in commodity items, which is why you'll never see an Apple television.

Thank you!