I've found it difficult to use iPhones — especially the iPhone 12 — that use OLED screens. The PWM rates are quite low and the effect is noticeable. I have no issue at all with the iPhone 11. I've had some eye strain issues with MacBooks, but generally the experience using them is OK. Now, we all know the screens on the next 16 inch is rumored to be mini-LED. Would this create PWM issues for sensitive groups? I've seen a few posts on this and I think the answer is... maybe? Presumably they would also use PWM, but not sure about the rate. I'd pick up a new 16 inch the minute it's released, this was the only question that gave me pause.
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If next Macbook Pros use Mini-LEDs, will that pose PWM issues for sensitive groups?
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This is the exact reason Midi-LED exist. So you WON'T have PWM issues.
Unfortunately this is more expensive to produce and will make screens slightly thicker, so I think Apple is more likely to go with OLED screens for the next Macbook Pros..
Unfortunately this is more expensive to produce and will make screens slightly thicker, so I think Apple is more likely to go with OLED screens for the next Macbook Pros..
No, it's not. Mini-LEDs are cheaper and easier to produce. That's the reason they exist.
That's not necessarily true. PWM is a method that is also used in liquid crystal displays with conventional backlighting and also mini-LED backlighting. The mini LED displays of the current iPad Pro does use PWM.
Just check the iPad pro. The experience from another sensitive person? It much better than Oled but not as good as IPS, so it's definitely easier to get used to.
As for cost, mini-led is generally overall more expensive (cheaper in terms of bill of materials but more expensive to make), but nobody except insiders know the exact prices Apple pays (many variables involved). Mini-led makes more sense in larger, desktop-like, screens, OLED in smaller ones.
The new iPad Pro with M1 has PWM at 19190 Hz at all brightness settings: Apple iPad Pro 12.9 2021 tablet review - A Mini LED trump card?
The MacBook Pro M1 has PWM at 122000 Hz at brightness settings below 49%: Apple MacBook Pro 13 2020 Laptop Review: The entry-level Pro also gets the M1 performance boost
19190 Hz is quite a bit lower than 122000 Hz, but it's not just about frequency. Flicker percent is just as important if not more important. Unfortunately Notebookcheck doesn't measure that and I don't have the devices so I can't measure them, however the MacBook Pro M1 seems to have a fairly low flicker percentage based on the screenshots from the scopes on Notebookcheck, while the iPad Pro M1 seems to have a very high percentage. Lower is better. Unfortunately they don't publish the numbers needed to properly calculate this. Incandescent light bulbs flicker at about 8-15% depending on grid frequency and power rating.
Mini-LED is more problematic than LED backlit LCD panels to make PWM free as there are many small LEDs in zones that need to be individually controlled. With a single backlight zone it's much easier to do. I fully expect Mini-LED to be worse and microLED uses the same backplane technology as OLED so I don't expect any difference there unless the backplane technology is improved, which would also help OLED.
In fact, I'm looking at buying an M1 MacBook before the Mini-LED ones are out to make sure I can last a couple of years until the situation improves. If I can tolerate the M1 MacBook displays remains to be seen.
The MacBook Pro M1 has PWM at 122000 Hz at brightness settings below 49%: Apple MacBook Pro 13 2020 Laptop Review: The entry-level Pro also gets the M1 performance boost
19190 Hz is quite a bit lower than 122000 Hz, but it's not just about frequency. Flicker percent is just as important if not more important. Unfortunately Notebookcheck doesn't measure that and I don't have the devices so I can't measure them, however the MacBook Pro M1 seems to have a fairly low flicker percentage based on the screenshots from the scopes on Notebookcheck, while the iPad Pro M1 seems to have a very high percentage. Lower is better. Unfortunately they don't publish the numbers needed to properly calculate this. Incandescent light bulbs flicker at about 8-15% depending on grid frequency and power rating.
Mini-LED is more problematic than LED backlit LCD panels to make PWM free as there are many small LEDs in zones that need to be individually controlled. With a single backlight zone it's much easier to do. I fully expect Mini-LED to be worse and microLED uses the same backplane technology as OLED so I don't expect any difference there unless the backplane technology is improved, which would also help OLED.
In fact, I'm looking at buying an M1 MacBook before the Mini-LED ones are out to make sure I can last a couple of years until the situation improves. If I can tolerate the M1 MacBook displays remains to be seen.
The new 14 and 16 to be released in a few months will definitely be Mini LED. OLED perhaps in the future as there have been rumors about it, but that's just speculation at the moment.
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As for PWM, it's gotta be tough if you suffer from it. Hopefully OP will be able to order a new 16 when they come out. I didn't realise until recently that brightness levels play such a significant role in it.
I have to ask why the iPhone 11 and 12 are different though. Aren't they both using the same screen?
I think it'll be the other way around. Have you missed the rumors about Apple's suppliers LG and Samsung ramping up production of their 8th gen OLEDs for Apple?
I honestly think Mini LED is the better solution for health related reasons, but like I said, it will be more expensive to produce, and knowing Apple, if 98% of their customers don't complain about it, they will go for the cheapest solution.
Couldn't be further apart.. iPhone 11 has an IPS based LCD and the 12 has an OLED display, with 4 times as many pixels. The only similarity is the size.
I'm lucky to not be as sensitive to the PWM flickering the OLED on the iPhone 12, but I can still notice it.
2% of the population are actually so sensitive to it, that it causes major headaches, migraines, and photophobia.
I suffer from Ocular Migraines myself sometimes, so I can only sympathize.
Er, have you missed the weekly articles on this site about the new MBPs sporting Mini LED screens??? Obviously you have, so let me be the bearer of good news!
The 14 and 16 inch MBPs to be released in October/November this year will be Mini LED. OLED has never been mentioned as a screen option for them. That rumor was for product in 2022.
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/10/samsung-preparing-2022-oled-macbook-pro/
As for iPhone 11 having an IPS based LCD screen, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure if the normal 11 was OLED like the PRo versions and the normal 12. I knew they changed em recently but wasn't sure which year.
What rumors can you point to that Apple is going to use OLED in 2021 MBP M1X machines? There is ZERO information about this happening. Every single article about this topic states 2022. Beyond your own feeling, where is this coming from? There is zero% chance of OLED MBPs this year.
I never said I believe this.
My personal opinion is that I don't think Apple will switch to Mini LED for their Macbook Pro's this year.
Speaking about OLED, just on Macrumors alone there have been plenty RUMORS about Apple's OLED suppliers.
LG Doubles OLED Production Capacity As Apple Expected to Transition More Devices to the Display Tech
LG Display, which is expected to play an increasingly more integral part in Apple's supply chain, is planning to double its production capacity...
www.macrumors.com
Samsung Display Preparing OLED Orders for 2022 MacBook Pro Models
Apple display supplier Samsung is in the early stages of preparing its production line for OLED displays that are expected to be used in future...
www.macrumors.com
iPad and MacBook Models With OLED Displays Rumored to Launch in 2022
Apple plans to release new iPad and MacBook models with OLED displays in 2022, according to industry sources cited by Taiwanese supply chain...
www.macrumors.com
I do hope Apple will equip their next Macbook Pro's with Mini LED, but for the reasons I mentioned earlier I don't think it's likely.
But we'll see!
Are you being serious??? If so...I never said I believe this.
My personal opinion is that I don't think Apple will switch to Mini LED for their Macbook Pro's this year.
Speaking about OLED, just on Macrumors alone there have been plenty RUMORS about Apple's OLED suppliers.
LG Doubles OLED Production Capacity As Apple Expected to Transition More Devices to the Display Tech
LG Display, which is expected to play an increasingly more integral part in Apple's supply chain, is planning to double its production capacity...Samsung Display Preparing OLED Orders for 2022 MacBook Pro Models
Apple display supplier Samsung is in the early stages of preparing its production line for OLED displays that are expected to be used in future...iPad and MacBook Models With OLED Displays Rumored to Launch in 2022
Apple plans to release new iPad and MacBook models with OLED displays in 2022, according to industry sources cited by Taiwanese supply chain...
I do hope Apple will equip their next Macbook Pro's with Mini LED, but for the reasons I mentioned earlier I don't think it's likely.
But we'll see!
What are you going on about!?!?
Haha. You absolutely did say that. Click the arrow in the quote next to the name to follow the convo back.YOU clearly stated that you thought Apple will use OLED for the new MBPs this year and not Mini LED and then asked me if I'd MISSED the rumors about Apple using OLED for the next MBPs.
I then clearly pointed out to you that you were wrong about OLED and that was for next year, 2022. And the fact that there have been a plethora of rumors pointing to the new MBPs using Mini LED.
This is just one of the latest articles on this very site reporting that MINI LED will almost certainly be used for this year's MBPs.
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/16/kuo-macbook-shipment-growth-adoption-mini-led/
Plus, why are you linking to articles that support my argument? To information that I linked to in my previous post to prove my point???
You mention ZERO reasons as to why they won't use Mini LED in this year's MBPs.
Look there is a very, very minor chance that Mini LED won't be used in this year's MBPs because nothing is certain until we see them in October/November, but considering all the rumors from reliable sources, it's basically a given. There will be NO OLED this year in 2021.
Anyway, you will be pleasantly surprised in a few months. LOL...
jesus. a conversation with you never ends does it? I already said I hope you're right. Calm down dudeAre you being serious??? If so...
What are you going on about!?!?
YOU clearly stated that you thought Apple will use OLED for the new MBPs this year and not Mini LED and then asked me if I'd MISSED the rumors about Apple using OLED for the next MBPs.
I then clearly pointed out to you that you were wrong about OLED and that was for next year, 2022. And the fact that there have been a plethora of rumors pointing to the new MBPs using Mini LED.
This is just one of the latest articles on this very site reporting that MINI LED will almost certainly be used for this year's MBPs.
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/16/kuo-macbook-shipment-growth-adoption-mini-led/
Plus, why are you linking to articles that support my argument? To information that I linked to in my previous post to prove my point???
You mention ZERO reasons as to why they won't use Mini LED in this year's MBPs.
Look there is a very, very minor chance that Mini LED won't be used in this year's MBPs because nothing is certain until we see them in October/November, but considering all the rumors from reliable sources, it's basically a given. There will be NO OLED this year in 2021.
Anyway, you will be pleasantly surprised in a few months. LOL...
Er, you incorrect reply to my post started this whole bizzaro exchange. Just admit you made a mistake and move on instead of trying to attack me.jesus. a conversation with you never ends does it? I already said I hope you're right. Calm down dude
Hi All,
Found this interesting forum about eye strain:
https://ledstrain.org/d/1075-apple-miniled-products-2021
Hope that helps
Martin
Found this interesting forum about eye strain:
https://ledstrain.org/d/1075-apple-miniled-products-2021
Hope that helps
Martin
1. It seems unlikely there's any difference between 19 and 122 kHz. 19 kHz is already about two orders of magnitude above normal human flicker fusion. Another order of magnitude shouldn't make any difference, even to people who are sensitive to flicker.
2. I've now gone down the rabbit hole of watching some notebookcheck.net videos on this subject and trying to find any information on their methodology, and frankly I would not put any trust in their numbers. It's not just that I can't find any info on their methodology, it's that the guy making the videos doesn't seem to know much about operating an oscilloscope (he doesn't seem to know how to use triggers to stabilize the live waveform), and the signals he's showing don't even appear to be PWM signals!
So who really knows what they're looking at, or if it's possible to get real information out of their tests.
The issue is that we don't really know which frequencies can be problematic or not. The eyes and brain can for sure detect frequencies at those rates. If it's an issue... Well more research is probably needed.
I agree that some of their PWM measurements are a bit weird and I'm not entirely sure their detector can even detect frequencies in the 100 kHz range at these low brighnesses. I know mine will struggle with it. Have to increase the gain quite a bit for lower brightness levels.
I'm going to measure my MacBook Air M1 some day shortly but I've been super busy lately. I'll see what I find and if it matches what notebookcheck found.
Hiya user,
I'll go one further than that
I kinda hope the next MBP 16" will be exactly the same screen as the old one, except for having an M chip inside etc.... Kinda like the current M1 MBA
Good old tech, last of line, is king. Rock solid testing in the field by millions of users.
Current rumours say otherwise - gutted.
Regards
Martin
Why are you so sure? I'm not a real expert on the topic, but as far as I've ever heard neurons (including rod and cone cells, the neurons we use as light receptors in our retinas) are not particularly fast devices. Most fire at rates well below 100 Hz; 200-300 Hz is about the upper limit. It seems unlikely that a light stimulus being PWM modulated at nearly 20,000 Hz will have that modulation survive past the rods and cones. Neurons just don't change state that fast.
After having searched up on PWM sensitivity, the most plausible-sounding thing I've seen is that some people have discomfort after looking at OLED display panels since OLEDs are often PWM modulated at only 4x the refresh rate, eg 240 Hz for a 60 Hz refresh display. 240 is down in the range of frequencies that neurons can actually operate at.
~20,000 Hz isn't. The time constants in neural systems should be so long compared to that frequency that everything just averages out (which is what PWM is all about).
What’s interesting is that studies have been done to see how quickly an image can flash in a dark room and still be identifiable. I wish I could find it again, but some of the results were surprising because of just how short the image was displayed. I think some individuals were able to identify that something was displayed even when the image was only displayed for 1/1000 of a second, but identification of what the image was capped out at around 1/300 of a second, which tracks with your comments. But take this with a grain of salt since I can’t find the study anymore, and it was years ago since I last stumbled across it.
That said, there are still visual artifacts that can be induced in human vision when fast motion + PWM are brought into the equation. The faster the motion, the higher the PWM frequency needs to be. An example I like to give here is a bubble column in an aquarium, when the aquarium lighting is PWM controlled (I wrote my own controller using a Raspberry Pi, so I have control over the PWM frequency). While 480Hz PWM is fine and dandy for an aquarium without a bubble column most of the time, add a bubble column and you can start to see the flicker in the bubbles themselves. Increase the frequency, and it gets less flickery and starts looking almost like interlacing/combing artifacts in the bubbles, where you see alternating lines of lit and unlit parts of the bubbles. Neat. At some point it goes away completely. I use around 1440Hz on my aquarium after removing the bubble column, but I had to go up around 4kHz to get the bubble flicker to be close to unnoticeable to my eyes, but even then it wasn’t perfect, but at least I had to go looking for it.
That said, a computer monitor’s motion is nothing like the bubble column. The bubble column is a rather extreme example. My favorite TV used 480Hz backlight strobing to reduce persistence of vision effects from sample and hold LCD displays and make it more CRT-like for motion. Much lower than my above example, but still outside the noticeable flicker range in that context. Christmas lights that are full-wave rectified “flicker” at 120Hz (sine wave rather than true PWM), and are fine for me. Just don’t get me started on half-wave rectified lights. But it apparently has been seen in experimental conditions that a 480Hz display can still produce flicker.
I agree that 20kHz should be well outside the range of what should be a problem for the flicker sensitive (me being one of those folks), and I haven’t had any issues with my existing MBP devices, or the M1 iPad Pro with mini LED that I tried. I just wanted to point out that the flicker fusion threshold isn’t exactly a fixed number, and can be well in excess of the neuron frequency because of other effects.
This all fits though - flicker fusion is caused by integrating effects. Basically, the output of rod and cone cells is roughly "how many photons have hit me somewhat recently". If you flash a bright image in a dark room, so long as that pulse induced enough of the chemical changes which cause rods and cones to release neurotransmitters, it'll be perceived, even if a series of pulses that short can't be discriminated from a steady, lower intensity constant source.
That is neat! Sounds like a kind of beat frequency effect.
Fully agreed. I was trying to express much the same things, but I'm not always good at describing things.
Basically, 20k flicker is so far above the limits of perception for a non-moving point light source that even when you introduce motion or animation, it should still be fine.I based that on the electric impulses and the speed at which they move. I did not account for the neurons slowing things down. People have however had issues with flicker in the kHz range but I don't know where the neurons cap out.
Apple doesn’t seem to care that the magnets in devices interfere with pacemakers why would they care about people with PWM?
